RLJing for safety

W1

notsoblue wrote:

W1 wrote:

But it takes both a moron and a RLJer to make a "moron who hates cyclists because they all RLJ", so you simply can't say it's "not because of anything I have done" - because, from my view, it very much is. A moron can't give abuse to other cyclists for RLJing if no cyclists RLJ'd....

If said moron then goes on to recklessly endanger a cyclist that has never jumped a red light in her life, then it is ludicrous to say that the RLJer shares any of the responsibility for the moron's actions.

No, it's not (on the presumption that said moron only hates cyclists because they run red lights).

notsoblue

_Brun_ wrote:

W1 wrote:

But it takes both a moron and a RLJer to make a "moron who hates cyclists because they all RLJ", so you simply can't say it's "not because of anything I have done" - because, from my view, it very much is. A moron can't give abuse to other cyclists for RLJing if no cyclists RLJ'd....

They'd just carry on hating cyclists for whatever other reason they fancied. Presumably if no one is jumping red lights, then it will be because they're constantly stuck behind them at junctions.

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

W1 wrote:

But it takes both a moron and a RLJer to make a "moron who hates cyclists because they all RLJ", so you simply can't say it's "not because of anything I have done" - because, from my view, it very much is. A moron can't give abuse to other cyclists for RLJing if no cyclists RLJ'd....

But the moron will still be a moron whether he has a lame justification for it or not. If no one in the country ever RLJ'd cyclists would still get beeped by morons who don't like being held up for two seconds by the cyclist in front. Why don't we give the morons no excuse to be morons by just not riding on the roads at all?

QFT x2

W1

_Brun_ wrote:

W1 wrote:

But it takes both a moron and a RLJer to make a "moron who hates cyclists because they all RLJ", so you simply can't say it's "not because of anything I have done" - because, from my view, it very much is. A moron can't give abuse to other cyclists for RLJing if no cyclists RLJ'd....

They'd just carry on hating cyclists for whatever other reason they fancied. Presumably if no one is jumping red lights, then it will be because they're constantly stuck behind them at junctions.

Maybe - but to me that doesn't justify giving them a reason by RLJing.

W1

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

Sure, if I RLJ then I am an RLJer. I am not, however, an RLJer who RLJs simply to shave time off my journey, as you previously insisted.

Surely that rather depends if there is a safe (but slower) non-RLJ way of crossing the junction e.g. getting off and using the ped crossings?

jonny_trousers

shm_uk wrote:

someone wrote:

Which is why I would not argue a fine should I be issued with one.

I think this pretty much sums up attitiudes toward law-breaking in this country (and certainly not only RLJing)...

Chance of getting caught: slim
Punishment if caught: slight

Conclusion: No real reason to be law-abiding therefore I'll do what I like regardless of social responsibility

You misunderstand: I'm not saying I am comfortable RLJing because the penalty for being caught doing so is relatively minor. I would be peeved to pay out £30 when I truly believe I was making the sensible - if technically illegal - choice. That said, my single potential RLJ a journey is done in the full knowledge that I am breaking a law (and should I be caught I will accept my penalty). That doesn't make me happy, but doing battle with the GTI chavs of South East London makes me even less happy.

jonny_trousers

W1 wrote:

Surely that rather depends if there is a safe (but slower) non-RLJ way of crossing the junction e.g. getting off and using the ped crossings?

I could get off my bike, walk it around the red light and then get back on it again, but really, where's the difference between that and gliding through the light at 2mph? Apart from anything, I would hate any motorists behind me to think, look at that cyclist, he's dodging the red light on a legal technicality. Bloody cyclists; they're all the same.

I've been thinking you might have a point about RLJers sullying the reputation of good, law abiding cyclists and I thought it might be an idea that, as we wait patiently at the red light, we call out a chant to the blatant RLJers as they pass. Might I suggest the following...

RLJ!
RLJ!
How many negative stereotypes have you reinforced today!?!

Sure, it's a little clumsy, but I'm sure it would help get the message across

Forgive my flippancy; I couldn't resist.

jonny_trousers

Double post. Sorry!

W1

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

W1 wrote:

Surely that rather depends if there is a safe (but slower) non-RLJ way of crossing the junction e.g. getting off and using the ped crossings?

I could get off my bike, walk it around the red light and then get back on it again, but really, where's the difference between that and gliding through the light at 2mph? Apart from anything, I would hate any motorists behind me to think, look at that cyclist, he's dodging the red light on a legal technicality. Bloody cyclists; they're all the same.

I've been thinking you might have a point about RLJers sullying the reputation of good, law abiding cyclists and I thought it might be an idea that, as we wait patiently at the red light, we call out a chant to the blatant RLJers as they pass. Might I suggest the following...

RLJ!
RLJ!
How many negative stereotypes have you reinforced today!?!

Sure, it's a little clumsy, but I'm sure it would help get the message across

Forgive my flippancy; I couldn't resist.

The difference is one is legal and one isn't; and, on that basis, one is more likely to be reinforcing the negative stereotype of London cyclist, and one isn't. Whether that matters to you is your choice.

I think that has a decent ring to it. A bike pump through the front wheel might be more effective though?!

sketchley

@JT. Regarding the junction you mentioned, assuming the light is red, please could you rank these optons by order of which is the safest in your opinion. By this I mean the one less likely to cause injury to yourself or others if you executed once a day for a whole year.

1. Wait behind stop line until light turns green then as you say "do battle with the chavs"
2. Edge forward past the stop line then proceed once you know it's clear
3. Edge forward past the stop line then proceed when light go green
4. Dismount at stop line, push bike across if clear then remount on other side
5. Get to stop line get off bike, walk to pavement (not cross stop line), then cross pedestrain crossing then remount on other side
6. Dismount significantly before the junction, then use pavement and pedestrian crossing to cross, then remount on other side
7. Sit back in traffic in primary to let the chavs go first
8. Avoid the junction entirely by taking another route

jonny_trousers

Sketchley wrote:

@JT. Regarding the junction you mentioned, assuming the light is red, please could you rank these optons by order of which is the safest in your opinion. By this I mean the one less likely to cause injury to yourself or others if you executed once a day for a whole year.

1. Wait behind stop line until light turns green then as you say "do battle with the chavs"
2. Edge forward past the stop line then proceed once you know it's clear
3. Edge forward past the stop line then proceed when light go green
4. Dismount at stop line, push bike across if clear then remount on other side
5. Get to stop line get off bike, walk to pavement (not cross stop line), then cross pedestrain crossing then remount on other side
6. Dismount significantly before the junction, then use pavement and pedestrian crossing to cross, then remount on other side
7. Sit back in traffic in primary to let the chavs go first
8. Avoid the junction entirely by taking another route

Hard to rank but I will have a go:

I would say 3,4, 5 and 6 are pretty much equal in terms of them being the safest options. Although, that junction is in a pretty dodgy part of town so if I walk my bike I may well get mugged for it. It is also right next to Kenningtom Park so I might accidentally get bummed by Kevin Spacey who was, um, out looking for his dog.

7 would possibly come next.

8 I don't know where to place as I'm not sure what other junctions in the area are like.

I'd then go 2 followed by 1.

I do understand what you are getting at: even if you feel unsafe at a particular junction there is always an alternative to the RLJ right? My response to that is that for the minor (I believe) infraction I am commiting by carefully gliding through the red then waiting (and I'm afraid I don't believe my actions will put my fellow cyclists in any danger) I am creating a safer compromise.

sketchley

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

I do understand what you are getting at: even if you feel unsafe at a particular junction there is always an alternative to the RLJ right?

Yes.

But also if the stated reason / excuse for an RLJ is that it is the safest option then for this to be true there should be no other safer or as safe options for crossing that junction. I would argue there are always other as safe, if not safer, options that also happen to be legal so these should come first. However, the mugged for you bike argument puts an interesting spin on it.

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

My response to that is that for the minor (I believe) infraction I am commiting by carefully gliding through the red then waiting (and I'm afraid I don't believe my actions will put my fellow cyclists in any danger) I am creating a safer compromise.

This is a large part for me of the problem in the RLJ for safety argument. Too often the argument is that RLJ is safer than waiting at the lights behind the stop line and the conclusion therefore being that as you have to deal with the “unsafe” situation any chosen safer alternative is therefore acceptable. The correct question to ask your self should always be what is the best way to deal with the situation and not does this situation mean it is ok for me to RLJ.

The litmus test for me to RLJ would have to be that it is the only way to protect my own and other road users from injury having considered all other options. On a route I’ve ridden regularly, like you at your junction, I would feel bound to find the best solution so I no longer had to “RLJ for Safety” this might take a few goes to find the best way, it may even take some campaigning to local traffic offices and local LCC affiliate.

sketchley

@JT

You said Brixton Road heading south where it crossed Camberwell New Road.

Just looked this up, I'm assuming your coming down Kennington Park Road, Turning left at the end of Kennington Park on to Brixton Road (Bus Lane Filters Left Before Traffic Lights) then crossing Camberwell New Road and carrying on along Brixton Road, (it's these lights at this junction I assume?

I use this junction most nights although I normally go straight on to Clapham Road. I will give this a go tonight and make sure I get caught at the red light. I'll report back later.

As for an alternative, if it is really that bad, don't turn on to Brixton Road from Kennington Park Road, go straight on and across lights at Oval station and then on to Clapham Road. Then take next left in to Prima Road then at end right on to Brixton Road there no idea how easy turning right at the end of prima road would be but as just after lights it should be controlled. Any of the next 2 lefts would also work the same way and only a small detour.

dawebbo

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

dawebbo wrote:

If you think it is unsafe to ride through a junction legally, I would suggest getting off your bike and walking around / take a different route. Picking and choosing what laws apply to you and when is always (and rightly so) going to cause resentment.

Resentment from whom? The same idiots who get annoyed because cyclists ride too far out from the pavement? The same idiots who are agrieved that we don't pay 'road tax'?

Clearly some drivers hate cyclists regardless, but why give them legitimate reasons to. And I'm sure not every driver falls into that category!

jonny_trousers

The alternative, safer junction argument is the most persuasive yet and I will look into finding one. To be honest I'm not a big fan of Brixton Road late at night anyway - there are far too many mini cabs/boy racers who think the bus lane is an overtaking lane, which makes cycling along there a little hairy at times. And don't get me started on the potholes. An alternative route eh? Now there's a thought...

sketchley

I tried that junction out tonight.

If it is the correct one, beyond the ASL box and pedestrian crossing there are two lanes for about 50 yards before it hits Camberwell New Road. When I hit it, having waited for a red, I moved to the centre of ASL to take primary. When traffic then started I was more than ok navigating the junction. I had no problems, there were some cars behind waited then pulled out and went past. It maybe different late at night and I may of been lucky.

The interesting observation I made was that had I proceeded to end of the two lanes, which is very tempting and look apparently safe, there would then be nothing between me and the car waiting at back at the lights (assuming another cylcist doesn't stop). That gives the car 50 yards to accelerate before having to brake for me who as far as the motorist is concerned jumped the lights. If two cars one in each lane move off together the problem is increased as the driver is held up as they can't move out a lane. I then get a very annoyed fast moving driver behind me frustrated that I've slowed them down.

By staying in the ASL in primary the car doesn't get up to speed until it's gone round me, which although delays the driver does not slow them down and is also much safer as the driver is much slower when behind you.

In my opinion I would say RLJ at this junction cause a bigger safety risk to you than not so is not the safer option.

jonny_trousers

Sketchley wrote:

I tried that junction out tonight.

If it is the correct one, beyond the ASL box and pedestrian crossing there are two lanes for about 50 yards before it hits Camberwell New Road. When I hit it, having waited for a red, I moved to the centre of ASL to take primary. When traffic then started I was more than ok navigating the junction. I had no problems, there were some cars behind waited then pulled out and went past. It maybe different late at night and I may of been lucky.

The interesting observation I made was that had I proceeded to end of the two lanes, which is very tempting and look apparently safe, there would then be nothing between me and the car waiting at back at the lights (assuming another cylcist doesn't stop). That gives the car 50 yards to accelerate before having to brake for me who as far as the motorist is concerned jumped the lights. If two cars one in each lane move off together the problem is increased as the driver is held up as they can't move out a lane. I then get a very annoyed fast moving driver behind me frustrated that I've slowed them down.

By staying in the ASL in primary the car doesn't get up to speed until it's gone round me, which although delays the driver does not slow them down and is also much safer as the driver is much slower when behind you.

In my opinion I would say RLJ at this junction cause a bigger safety risk to you than not so is not the safer option.

Yeah, what you say makes some sense, but there are a couple of reasons I would disagree with you. Firstly, if you have the head start of being at the edge of CNR as the light turns to green you should be well out of the way of side sweeps from cars wanting to go left, at speed, onto CNR (as I said in an earlier post, I once saw a cyclist very nearly come to a sticky end this way). Secondly, if you have the head start, even if you are not super fit, you can be across to the relative safety of Brixton Rd (which is quite wide for a short while) before even the fastest of cars can reach you (I ride a single speed so acceleration is not the best, but I’m long gone if I roll up to the edge of CNR). There is also enough space that means you no longer need to ride in primary and so there is no holding up or brake slamming of cars to be had.

Perhaps it is true that drivers round that way are more aggressive late at night. The bus lane restrictions on Brixton Rd are no longer enforced and so I guess plenty of drivers will know they can gun it up the left hand side.

While it sounds to me as though you handled the junction in the best and safest way possible legally, I still debate the fact that it is not safer to set off a little further ahead at the edge of CNR.

Thanks for taking the time and effort to check it out for yourself.

jonny_trousers

Sketchley wrote:

In my opinion I would say RLJ at this junction cause a bigger safety risk to you than not so is not the safer option.

Nah, sorry mate, but I can't accept that. I just rode it again, carefully gliding up to the edge of CNR, and I could hardly have been safer. I was over the other side way ahead of the bunched up traffic behind me when the lights turned to green.

By all means tell me it is perfectly safe to wait with the traffic and I'll listen to your argument, but to suggest my way is more dangerous is nonsense. Less legal, sure, but more dangerous? No way.

Again, thanks for offering your thoughts (wrong though they may be )

sketchley

Fair enough I didn't ride it the other so I won't argue as to which is safer. But I do think it is perfectly safe to wait. As for cars turning left, I positioned myself in the ASL between the two lanes so that cars turning left go left not round. Of course you could always get a muppet that tries it from the right hand lane but taking that position should stop it.

Anyway as before it may well be different late at night where driver are expecting to go quicker and there is alternative routes as mentioned before.

shouldbeinbed

Sketchley wrote:

Fair enough I didn't ride it the other so I won't argue as to which is safer. But I do think it is perfectly safe to wait. As for cars turning left, I positioned myself in the ASL between the two lanes so that cars turning left go left not round. Of course you could always get a muppet that tries it from the right hand lane but taking that position should stop it.

Anyway as before it may well be different late at night where driver are expecting to go quicker and there is alternative routes as mentioned before.

I think yr falling on deaf ears. Just like theres some motorists that are always right about certain things no matter what you say to them, the cycling fraternity are just the same. I've never come across a junction I felt so frightened or technically incompetent that I couldn't figure where to safely put myself and stay within the bounds of the law & there are a few interesting little combos and traffic light locks to negotiate.

Each to their own but along with road tax quips which is nothing whatsoever to do with us, the single biggest gripe I see & hear from drivers is RLJ which is TOTALLY under cyclists control. No effect on us all???

W1

shouldbeinbed wrote:

I think yr falling on deaf ears. Just like theres some motorists that are always right about certain things no matter what you say to them, the cycling fraternity are just the same. I've never come across a junction I felt so frightened or technically incompetent that I couldn't figure where to safely put myself and stay within the bounds of the law & there are a few interesting little combos and traffic light locks to negotiate.

Each to their own but along with road tax quips which is nothing whatsoever to do with us, the single biggest gripe I see & hear from drivers is RLJ which is TOTALLY under cyclists control. No effect on us all???

Careful, NSB will read all sorts of b0llocks into your post now and then decide what opinions you have.

jonny_trousers

shouldbeinbed wrote:

think yr falling on deaf ears. Just like theres some motorists that are always right about certain things no matter what you say to them, the cycling fraternity are just the same. I've never come across a junction I felt so frightened or technically incompetent that I couldn't figure where to safely put myself and stay within the bounds of the law & there are a few interesting little combos and traffic light locks to negotiate.

Each to their own but along with road tax quips which is nothing whatsoever to do with us, the single biggest gripe I see & hear from drivers is RLJ which is TOTALLY under cyclists control. No effect on us all???

Hang on. So just because I cannot agree that it is as safe or safer for me to stay alongside the traffic at that particular junction I am refusing to listen? Bit arrogant don't you think?

I have no problem with me riding that junction legally either; it's the drivers around me I worry about and if very careful passing of the red light before waiting for the green puts me in a much safer position then I'm sorry, I'm going to look after myself

I suggest you read back over this thread and see how I have discussed every point raised before you start accusing me of narrow-mindedness.

Headhuunter

shouldbeinbed wrote:

Sketchley wrote:

Fair enough I didn't ride it the other so I won't argue as to which is safer. But I do think it is perfectly safe to wait. As for cars turning left, I positioned myself in the ASL between the two lanes so that cars turning left go left not round. Of course you could always get a muppet that tries it from the right hand lane but taking that position should stop it.

Anyway as before it may well be different late at night where driver are expecting to go quicker and there is alternative routes as mentioned before.

I think yr falling on deaf ears. Just like theres some motorists that are always right about certain things no matter what you say to them, the cycling fraternity are just the same. I've never come across a junction I felt so frightened or technically incompetent that I couldn't figure where to safely put myself and stay within the bounds of the law & there are a few interesting little combos and traffic light locks to negotiate.

Each to their own but along with road tax quips which is nothing whatsoever to do with us, the single biggest gripe I see & hear from drivers is RLJ which is TOTALLY under cyclists control. No effect on us all???

It's not that it's inherently unsafe to wait at reds it's that it's safer to jump reds in many situations (not all) as the road system is designed around motor traffic. You're as dogmatic in your view it seems as I am in mine. You and others here will not accept this and I refuse to accept that it is ALWAYS best to sit with cars at the red. The law is sometimes an ass.

As for motorists' general whinge that "all cyclists" jump reds and they shouldn't. Stuff 'em. I do what's safest for me. I don't answer to or need to proove myself to the motoring fraternity.

notsoblue

I don't ride on the same roads as you do so I can't comment on how dangerous these junctions are. But to be honest, I've been on some pretty hairy intersections on major roads and I don't think I've ever felt the need to RLJ to protect myself. I just take an assertive primary position, try to make eye contact with the drivers, and I manage fine.

Its pretty hard to sympathise with you HH and J_T, but you'll keep doing what you're doing regardless of anyone's opinion on here.

gaz545

@JT i know the roads around brixton well, but i'm strugiling to see which set of lights you feel the need to jump?
google street view perhaps

jonny_trousers

gaz545 wrote:

@JT i know the roads around brixton well, but i'm strugiling to see which set of lights you feel the need to jump?
google street view perhaps

I don't 'need' to jump these lights mate; I just feel it is safer and wiser to do so.

Let's hope this link works:

Click Here

I am talking about heading in the direction that the bus is travelling in. The line where the Astra in front of the white van is where I roll up to. The convertible on the other side of the box junction is where I am ultimately aiming for.

Greg T

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

I don't 'need' to jump these lights mate; I just feel it is safer and wiser to do so.

And faster

Don't forget faster

Have you all done that bit yet?

jonny_trousers

notsoblue wrote:

I don't ride on the same roads as you do so I can't comment on how dangerous these junctions are. But to be honest, I've been on some pretty hairy intersections on major roads and I don't think I've ever felt the need to RLJ to protect myself. I just take an assertive primary position, try to make eye contact with the drivers, and I manage fine.

Its pretty hard to sympathise with you HH and J_T, but you'll keep doing what you're doing regardless of anyone's opinion on here.

The insinuation that a worry for personal safety is a reflection on urban riding skills is absolute nonsense. You could be the most skilled, the most aware, rider in the world and still be taken out by a careless or aggressive driver.

And as for the insinuation from a couple of people that I, and people of a similar opinion to me, are just stubborn in our opinions. Utter balls! I mentioned right at the beginning of this thread that I have only recently started performing my RLJ manoeuvre having been inspired by watching a cyclist through my car windscreen. All along I have been open to persuasion, yet so far I still think my method is safest.

rjsterry

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

gaz545 wrote:

@JT i know the roads around brixton well, but i'm strugiling to see which set of lights you feel the need to jump?
google street view perhaps

I don't 'need' to jump these lights mate; I just feel it is safer and wiser to do so.

Let's hope this link works:

Click Here

I am talking about heading in the direction that the bus is travelling in. The line where the Astra in front of the white van is where I roll up to. The convertible on the other side of the box junction is where I am ultimately aiming for.

:? I used to ride this way every day, in both directions. Heading south, I always found it easier to hit it on a green, and match the speed of the traffic. If I did arrive at a red, I would usually wait a couple of cars back as they tended to pull away more slowly than the car at the front with a clear road ahead of him. Having said that, the road layout has changed slightly since I changed my route, although I never noticed boy racers being more of a problem there than, say Brixton Hill, or Streatham High Road.

jonny_trousers

Greg T wrote:

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

I don't 'need' to jump these lights mate; I just feel it is safer and wiser to do so.

And faster

Don't forget faster

Have you all done that bit yet?

Yeah, faster by about 3 seconds. Oh the fun I have with all that extra time on my hands.

hatbeard

Greg T wrote:

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

I don't 'need' to jump these lights mate; I just feel it is safer and wiser to do so.

And faster

Don't forget faster

Have you all done that bit yet?

my garmin says I was stopped for 3:00 on my way in this morning and I believe there is something to the tune of upwards of 40 sets of traffics lights on my commute.

just think if I jumped the reds what I could do with all that extra free time... Reckon I'd probably spend it justifying my position on the interwebs.