RLJing for safety

jonny_trousers

So, last night I hit the lights at my junction on a red and lined myself up in the ASL like a good boy. Admittedly I was not positioned in the very centre of the left hand lane, but still, I made my presence very clear. Lights turned to amber and me and the two lanes of traffic to my right set off. As I was moving ahead I noticed the big, white BMW 4x4 with the blacked out windows directly to my right begin to pass. No problem there as the road was broad enough for me plus two lanes of traffic. But then he started to indicate left, suggesting he wanted to turn up Camberwell New Road. Now, perhaps he knew I was there and would have waited for me to pass him by again, but as we had got some decent speed up by this point I just wasn't going to risk it and so I hit the brakes. The BMW then swept left and continued on his way, not even remotely looking like he had planned to wait for me.

I'm only mentioning this to highlight how dangerous this junction is at the time of night when I ride it, as the argument that I had many alternatives beyond RLJing to protect myself from a side sweep will remain the same (whether I agree with them or not). It really is an awful junction and not that it will do any good, I will write to whichever council it is situated in and highlight the danger cyclist must face. There are other junctions in London where cyclists do not line up with motor traffic (not that I can remember exactly where) and this junction is a prime example of where something similar should be implemented.

Also, is it me or are more car drivers only bothering to indicate at junctions once the lights turn to green these days? Very annoying.

Drysuitdiver

mattomal wrote:

I jump one red light nearly every morning, but don't really class it as a RLJ - going right out of a minor road across a major one the light sequence is only triggered when a car sits over the sensor.

I can't trigger the sensor but there is a bit of a gap between the filter from across where I can nip out before the main road gets moving again.

Would this be classed as legal due to a faulty signal, or would I have to wait for a car to turn up?

whats wrong with dismounting and seting of the pedestrian crossing , crossing the road and then setting off again.

is your life really worth such a small amount of time, or if the 2 minutes or so delay is so crucial , leave a few minutes earlier.

I always find if i am unsure of what to do , i think to what my reaction would be if my kids did i. if i would be livid then i don't do it.

gaz545

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

gaz545 wrote:

I don't see the need to 'jump' the red light there, unless you know the light phase perfectly you will be putting your self in more danger by RLJ.
It's fairly easy to control the lane to take the rightish turn, if you have difficulties with that, perhaps some bikability lessons would help.

I don't know how many times I need say this or how much clearer I should be, but let's have another go shall we? I can ride that junction legally, but I see no good reason to put myself in such a potentially dangerous position in order to do so given the simple option I have of gliding across the line and waiting at the edge of the junction before progressing. In doing so I am technically only RLJing as much as those of you who allow your front wheel to pass the outer line of an ASL while waiting for the green.

Why does the extra few meters make you feel safer? what do you do if the light is green when you arrive at the lights?

mattomal wrote:

I jump one red light nearly every morning, but don't really class it as a RLJ - going right out of a minor road across a major one the light sequence is only triggered when a car sits over the sensor.

I can't trigger the sensor but there is a bit of a gap between the filter from across where I can nip out before the main road gets moving again.

Would this be classed as legal due to a faulty signal, or would I have to wait for a car to turn up?

Whilst you obviously jump the red light, your a. doing it when you can safely b. the lights don't work for you and are therefor faulty, you should report the lights to the council so they can fix them.

SmellTheGlove

Suppose I drift beyond the stop line and up to this junction in Jonny_T mode, is there a repeater on the far side so I can see the lights change?

jonny_trousers

SmellTheGlove wrote:

Suppose I drift beyond the stop line and up to this junction in Jonny_T mode, is there a repeater on the far side so I can see the lights change?

Yes. The junction is not actually crossed until the green has been displayed. No guess work, no crossing roads that still have moving traffic on them.

jonny_trousers

gaz545 wrote:

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

gaz545 wrote:

I don't see the need to 'jump' the red light there, unless you know the light phase perfectly you will be putting your self in more danger by RLJ.
It's fairly easy to control the lane to take the rightish turn, if you have difficulties with that, perhaps some bikability lessons would help.

I don't know how many times I need say this or how much clearer I should be, but let's have another go shall we? I can ride that junction legally, but I see no good reason to put myself in such a potentially dangerous position in order to do so given the simple option I have of gliding across the line and waiting at the edge of the junction before progressing. In doing so I am technically only RLJing as much as those of you who allow your front wheel to pass the outer line of an ASL while waiting for the green.

Why does the extra few meters make you feel safer? what do you do if the light is green when you arrive at the lights?

It's not just a 'few' metres, but because, like I have said a bazillion times already in this thread, that extra distance from the waiting traffic gives you enough time to travel beyond the junction where cars may wish to turn left before they can reach you. You don’t get in their way, they don’t get in yours. Chance of a side sweep neutralised.

As for the light being on green when I arrive, I will assess the situation as it is at that moment in time. I will either continue on if I feel it is safe for me to do so or I’ll hang back until the light turns to red if things look particularly dodgy. I have carried on with the flow of traffic before only to be forced to stop by the left turners at the edge of CNR (if they don’t indicate you just never know) and have then missed the lights.

I wonder what the legal implication is if you cross the light on green, yet it turns to red before you get to the actual junction and you are forced to wait. It’s not a box junction until you are on CNR so I suspect it is perfectly acceptable to stop and wait. If that is the case I could stop at the light when it’s on red, get off my bike, walk it around the light, remount, glide to the edge of CNR and wait for the green. That way any would-be-psychos in cars behind me could not use me as justification to mow down the next cyclist they come across with the excuse that they deserved it because they once saw someone RLJ.

Drysuitdiver

[johnnytrousers]I wonder what the legal implication is if you cross the light on green, yet it turns to red before you get to the actual junction and you are forced to wait. It’s not a box junction until you are on CNR so I suspect it is perfectly acceptable to stop and wait. If that is the case I could stop at the light when it’s on red, get off my bike, walk it around the light, remount, glide to the edge of CNR and wait for the green. That way any would-be-psychos in cars behind me could not use me as justification to mow down the next cyclist they come across with the excuse that they deserved it because they once saw someone RLJ [/quote]



http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTr ... /DG_070332

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTr ... /DG_069837

rule 71 and rule 178

the bold bits highlight the relevant laws you would break. so in answer to your post- you would get nicked. whether you got prosecuted is another matter.

unless you argue that RTA doesn't apply to cyclists, and you would b wrong .

whyamihere

Jonny_Trousers
Why not nip into the lane to your right? Nobody's going to turn left from the rightmost lane, and you can move left again as soon as you're over the junction. There's a couple of junctions in Birmingham where I could carry on all the way up the bus lane to the junction, but instead merge with the rest of the traffic in order to avoid the danger of left turners.

Greg T

emac1987 wrote:

[
I really despise this attitude of "it was his fault so I don't care if he's seriously injured, his problem anyway". I mean when there's an accident and someone's injured is being "right" really the priority?? .

Quite right the priority order is:

Airway
Breathing
Circulation

Then

You ran a red light you prick - suck it up.

Just because you're hurt doesn't mean you're blameless

Specialized Needs

Drysuitdiver wrote:

johnnytrousers wrote:

I wonder what the legal implication is if you cross the light on green, yet it turns to red before you get to the actual junction and you are forced to wait. It’s not a box junction until you are on CNR so I suspect it is perfectly acceptable to stop and wait. If that is the case I could stop at the light when it’s on red, get off my bike, walk it around the light, remount, glide to the edge of CNR and wait for the green. That way any would-be-psychos in cars behind me could not use me as justification to mow down the next cyclist they come across with the excuse that they deserved it because they once saw someone RLJ

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTr ... /DG_070332

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTr ... /DG_069837

rule 71 and rule 178

the bold bits highlight the relevant laws you would break. so in answer to your post- you would get nicked. whether you got prosecuted is another matter.

unless you argue that RTA doesn't apply to cyclists, and you would b wrong .

I thought JT was talking about crossing the stop line when the lights are showing green, but then (for some reason) baulking before entering the crossing carriageway. JT would then (legitimately) wait for a sequence of the lights, and so be waiting in the discussed position - in advance of the stop line - while the lights are red. The junction is quite a large one and there are a couple of dozen yards from the stop line until you encounter the crossing traffic lane.

Admittedly JT did then go on to talk about finding a loophole to get to the same position while the light was red (as a pedestrian pushing a bike).

jonny_trousers

Drysuitdiver wrote:

[johnnytrousers]I wonder what the legal implication is if you cross the light on green, yet it turns to red before you get to the actual junction and you are forced to wait. It’s not a box junction until you are on CNR so I suspect it is perfectly acceptable to stop and wait. If that is the case I could stop at the light when it’s on red, get off my bike, walk it around the light, remount, glide to the edge of CNR and wait for the green. That way any would-be-psychos in cars behind me could not use me as justification to mow down the next cyclist they come across with the excuse that they deserved it because they once saw someone RLJ

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTr ... /DG_070332

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTr ... /DG_069837


rule 71 and rule 178

the bold bits highlight the relevant laws you would break. so in answer to your post- you would get nicked. whether you got prosecuted is another matter.

unless you argue that RTA doesn't apply to cyclists, and you would b wrong .

This rule just shows how poorly designed my particular junction is as there is a large space beyond the ASL and before the box junction where it is quite possible that a light could turn from green to amber to red before a cyclist has even met with the actual junction.

EKE_38BPM

I've been lurking on this thread since it started and I really do wonder about cyclists who agonise about RLJing for safety.
~95% I stop at red lights (probably way more than that) and don't think about it, but, on occasion, I will RLJ (tree falling in the woods...) .
Sometimes it is safer to RLJ than it is to 'obey the law', but if I ever RLJ it is the last option (safety-wise) on my mind and any (non brain-dead) traffic cop should be able to see why I did it.
Chill out peeps.

jonny_trousers

EKE_38BPM wrote:

I've been trolling this thread since it started and I really do wonder about cyclists who agonise about RLJing for safety.
~95% I stop at red lights (probably way more than that) and don't think about it, but, on occasion, I will RLJ (tree falling in the woods...) .
Sometimes it is safer to RLJ than it is to 'obey the law', but if I ever RLJ it is the last option (safety-wise) on my mind and any (non brain-dead) traffic cop should be able to see why I did it.
Chill out peeps.

Wise words.

For some reason this reminds me of a friend of mine who went on a police motorcycle safety course some years ago and was told that, on a bike, he should ignore the law where speed is concerned if it would get him out of a potentially dangerous position to do so.

EKE_38BPM

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

EKE_38BPM wrote:

I've been trolling this thread since it started and I really do wonder about cyclists who agonise about RLJing for safety.
~95% I stop at red lights (probably way more than that) and don't think about it, but, on occasion, I will RLJ (tree falling in the woods...) .
Sometimes it is safer to RLJ than it is to 'obey the law', but if I ever RLJ it is the last option (safety-wise) on my mind and any (non brain-dead) traffic cop should be able to see why I did it.
Chill out peeps.

Wise words.

For some reason this reminds me of a friend of mine who went on a police motorcycle safety course some years ago and was told that, on a bike, he should ignore the law where speed is concerned if it would get him out of a potentially dangerous position to do so.

Proper bike (I am an engine) or motorbike (lazymobile)? Not much changes either way, but I like the whole "I am an engine" thing!

EKE_38BPM

I've just had a think and, considering there are 17 traffic lights on my commute and I always stop at all of them if they are red, I think it is fair to assume that my "~95%" is a massive under-estimate.

Headhuunter

Basically to sum up, there is nothing inherently safe in stopping at all red lights as most junctions are designed for motor traffic and the only concession to cyclists is a little green box at the front which usually gets ingnored by drivers anyway.

As has been discussed in the past on threads, in some countried it is completely acceptable for cyclists to RLJ when the road is clear, just as it's completely acceptable in this country for peds to wander across the road when the red man is showing (in many countries, for example Japan where I lived for a few years, for a ped to cross on a red man is seen in the same light as cyclists RLJ-ing in the UK). I noticed that last time I was in Paris it seemed perfectly acceptable for cyclists to ride on the pavement.

Ultimately it's horses for courses...

W1

Headhuunter wrote:

Basically to sum up, there is nothing inherently safe in stopping at all red lights as most junctions are designed for motor traffic and the only concession to cyclists is a little green box at the front which usually gets ingnored by drivers anyway.
.

Basically to sum up, there's nothing inherently plausible in the "RLJ for safety" argument, as there is usually a way to safely cross a junction without RLJing.

Headhuunter

W1 wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

Basically to sum up, there is nothing inherently safe in stopping at all red lights as most junctions are designed for motor traffic and the only concession to cyclists is a little green box at the front which usually gets ingnored by drivers anyway.
.

Basically to sum up, there's nothing inherently plausible in the "RLJ for safety" argument, as there is usually a way to safely cross a junction without RLJing.

OK. You stick to your theory and wait at every red light you get to and I'll stick to mine...

DonDaddyD

Today I saw a Taxi RLJ on the approach to London Bridge.

Going along Clapham Common there's a crossing with lights - its halfway between Clapham Common tube and Clapham South. If those lights are red you could be there for what feels like an eternity.

I sometimes RLJ those. But its not for safety.

When hitting Blaham by the Argos heading towards Clapham if those lights are red, I might RLJ those when in a rush. But that's not for safety.

In fact what I realise is that I don't tend to RLJ for safety. But I might RLJ when its safe to do so....

daviesee

DonDaddyD wrote:

Today I saw a Taxi RLJ on the approach to London Bridge.

Going along Clapham Common there's a crossing with lights - its halfway between Clapham Common tube and Clapham South. If those lights are red you could be there for what feels like an eternity.

I sometimes RLJ those. But its not for safety.

When hitting Blaham by the Argos heading towards Clapham if those lights are red, I might RLJ those when in a rush. But that's not for safety.

In fact what I realise is that I don't tend to RLJ for safety. But I might RLJ when its safe to do so....

and that in summary concludes the whole thread.

No? Thought not :evil:

jonny_trousers

daviesee wrote:

No? Thought not :evil:

No!

While I admire DDD for admitting to doing what I suspect most people here do from time-to time - come on admit it, that lonely, little road, there's neither a car nor a pedestrian in sight, no one will ever know, just one teeny-weeny RLJ, you know you want to - that is still not the point of the thread. The question is, are there junctions out there where it is safer to RLJ than to wait and to ride with the traffic?

daviesee

Let's try this from another angle.

You are not going to get the validation that you appear to be seeking.

My answer to your question is no. If there is a junction that dangerous, don't use it. There are alternative routes. Yes, I often take a longer route if it will avoid dangerous roads/junctions.

Kieran_Burns

For another perspective:

I don't red light jump EVER.

Why?

I don't encounter any lights: red, green or amber. My commute is utterly light free.

Move to the country: we know how to cycle 8)

jonny_trousers

daviesee wrote:

Let's try this from another angle.

You are not going to get the validation that you appear to be seeking.

Nah, not seeking validation. I'm fully aware that my actions are my sole responsibility. I was just raising a question and enjoying the debate.

gaz545

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

gaz545 wrote:

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

gaz545 wrote:

I don't see the need to 'jump' the red light there, unless you know the light phase perfectly you will be putting your self in more danger by RLJ.
It's fairly easy to control the lane to take the rightish turn, if you have difficulties with that, perhaps some bikability lessons would help.

I don't know how many times I need say this or how much clearer I should be, but let's have another go shall we? I can ride that junction legally, but I see no good reason to put myself in such a potentially dangerous position in order to do so given the simple option I have of gliding across the line and waiting at the edge of the junction before progressing. In doing so I am technically only RLJing as much as those of you who allow your front wheel to pass the outer line of an ASL while waiting for the green.

Why does the extra few meters make you feel safer? what do you do if the light is green when you arrive at the lights?

It's not just a 'few' metres, but because, like I have said a bazillion times already in this thread, that extra distance from the waiting traffic gives you enough time to travel beyond the junction where cars may wish to turn left before they can reach you. You don’t get in their way, they don’t get in yours. Chance of a side sweep neutralised.

As for the light being on green when I arrive, I will assess the situation as it is at that moment in time. I will either continue on if I feel it is safe for me to do so or I’ll hang back until the light turns to red if things look particularly dodgy. I have carried on with the flow of traffic before only to be forced to stop by the left turners at the edge of CNR (if they don’t indicate you just never know) and have then missed the lights.

I wonder what the legal implication is if you cross the light on green, yet it turns to red before you get to the actual junction and you are forced to wait. It’s not a box junction until you are on CNR so I suspect it is perfectly acceptable to stop and wait. If that is the case I could stop at the light when it’s on red, get off my bike, walk it around the light, remount, glide to the edge of CNR and wait for the green. That way any would-be-psychos in cars behind me could not use me as justification to mow down the next cyclist they come across with the excuse that they deserved it because they once saw someone RLJ.

Are you getting left hooked because you are riding in the gutter? If you take a primiary position, control the lane and watch the traffic behind you, you should have no issues navigation this junction from a stop.
If you really are having issues with this junction because of your riding style, then perhaps you should go on a bikeability course.
If you really think that the only way to take this junction is by rljing, then why not look at a slightly different route to avoid it?
Obviously if RLJing isn't an issue for you, then carry on doing it but you won't get any sympathy from the rest of us of people have a go at you for doing it. It is your decesion if you choose to break the laws.

And for your information, i have over 100 traffic lights on my commute to work, and i never rlj.

jonny_trousers

gaz545 wrote:

Are you getting left hooked because you are riding in the gutter? If you take a primiary position, control the lane and watch the traffic behind you, you should have no issues navigation this junction from a stop.

No, I am not slap bang in the middle of the lane, but I am far enough from the gutter to make my presence very obvious.

If you really are having issues with this junction because of your riding style, then perhaps you should go on a bikeability course.

Who says I'm having difficulty with this junction because of my riding style? I occasionally have difficulty with this junction because of the more than average number of shitty drivers who use it at 11:00 at night.

If you really think that the only way to take this junction is by rljing, then why not look at a slightly different route to avoid it?

That is a possibility. Or, I could very carefully pass beyond the red light and wait for the green at a safe point where I can then beat traffic behind me across the junction.

Obviously if RLJing isn't an issue for you, then carry on do it but you won't get any sympathy from the rest of us of people have a go at you for doing it. It is your decesion if you choose to break the laws.

I'm not looking for sympathy. Nor has anyone ever had a go at me for RLJing at this junction (away from this forum that is).

I'm actually quite surprised that you - who have a YouTube channel devoted to displaying your almost weekly run-ins with poor or aggressive drivers - would question that it might be my fault that this junction has the potential to be deadly and not that of the road planners or the many careless drivers who use it.

shm_uk

Ahhhhhhhh, there's nothing like a good old fight about RLJing...
They always end in a stalemate though

More popcorn anyone?

Drysuitdiver

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

gaz545 wrote:

Are you getting left hooked because you are riding in the gutter? If you take a primiary position, control the lane and watch the traffic behind you, you should have no issues navigation this junction from a stop.

No, I am not slap bang in the middle of the lane, but I am far enough from the gutter to make my presence very obvious.

If you really are having issues with this junction because of your riding style, then perhaps you should go on a bikeability course.

Who says I'm having difficulty with this junction because of my riding style? I occasionally have difficulty with this junction because of the more than average number of shitty drivers who use it at 11:00 at night.

If you really think that the only way to take this junction is by rljing, then why not look at a slightly different route to avoid it?

That is a possibility. Or, I could very carefully pass beyond the red light and wait for the green at a safe point where I can then beat traffic behind me across the junction.

Obviously if RLJing isn't an issue for you, then carry on do it but you won't get any sympathy from the rest of us of people have a go at you for doing it. It is your decesion if you choose to break the laws.

I'm not looking for sympathy. Nor has anyone ever had a go at me for RLJing at this junction (away from this forum that is).

I'm actually quite surprised that you - who have a YouTube channel devoted to displaying your almost weekly run-ins with poor or aggressive drivers - would question that it might be my fault that this junction has the potential to be deadly and not that of the road planners or the many careless drivers who use it.

so get off the bike and use the pedestrian crossing. it doesn't mean you have a small willy. If it is so bad then lobby your local MP or councillor. speak to the local press annoy Boris. or is it just easier to go "not my fault, I HAD to break the law"

jonny_trousers

Drysuitdiver wrote:

so get off the bike and use the pedestrian crossing. it doesn't mean you have a small willy. If it is so bad then lobby your local MP or councillor. speak to the local press annoy Boris. or is it just easier to go "not my fault, I HAD to break the law"

Why? I've already said I plan to write to the council. Of course it's easier and of course it would be my fault, but again that is not the point. The point is, certain junctions are so poorly designed for the cyclist that it may be safer to RLJ than to wait in traffic.

gaz545

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

I'm actually quite surprised that you - who have a YouTube channel devoted to displaying your almost weekly run-ins with poor or aggressive drivers - would question that it might be my fault that this junction has the potential to be deadly and not that of the road planners or the many careless drivers who use it.

I'm just trying to find out exactly why you are doing it.
Note that I also do a series devoted to displayed cyclists doing stupid things.

I don't think i suggested that it is your fault. I was trying to find out your road position but also give you a way to get around that if your position was poor. I did not mean for that to be taken as it's your fault for riding in the gutter.

For me, the sensible thing to do is avoid this junction and take a slightly different route.