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Going to try a new training plan

inseineinseine Posts: 5,786
After 30 years of training and basically always being at the same level I thought I'd do it differently this year. I've had coaches, followed Joe Friel et al and last year the Black Book but they all basically prescribe the same easy start building to intervals as the season approaches but there is so much stuff out there on what to and not to do, not all of it agreeing.
I was shocked to find how much form I'd lost after a easy 5 weeks of only riding Sunday so probably tried a bit hard to regain any fitness and now I have a Sufferfest video as well I thought why not just go for it? So I've upped the effort and I've already done 9 sets of 2x20 and a couple of Sufferfests.
I'll tell you if I'm burnt out by March :wink:
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  • SBezzaSBezza Posts: 2,173
    Best of luck :D
  • What is the recommended effort level when doing 2x20? ie: HR Zone 4 etc?
  • inseineinseine Posts: 5,786
    Threshold is the norm
  • good luck, i'm sure you'll see some interesting results if you survive!!!!

    Make sure you have a rest day though!
  • PokerfacePokerface Posts: 7,960
    inseine wrote:
    Threshold is the norm


    No wonder I've been doing so poorly. I've been doing them above threshold! :oops:


    Good luck with the training. One thing I'm finding - consistency is key. So riding once a week won't help much. But daily (if shorter) efforts on a daily basis seem to work better (for me!).
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 79,667
    I do them just below threshold.
  • AirwaveAirwave Posts: 483
    I've been thinking the same.I always do the same thing each winter.But this year i'm aslo trying to keep hold of higher level of fitness by doing shorter harder sessions on the turbo.Rather than just doing lots of slow miles&the short sharp shock trying to get fit for the first TTs in march.Hopefully this year it'll be a smoother transition&may be better results as the season progresses.
    I'm doing [email protected] 2-3 times a week as well as some longer endurance rides(when the weather allows)at the moment.From Beginning Feb i'll start to do [email protected] pace twice a week.
  • P_TuckerP_Tucker Posts: 1,878
    NapoleonD wrote:
    I do them just below threshold.

    +1

    Probably not as good for you, but I don't have the mental strength to do them at threshold in December.
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 79,667
    My coach seems to suggest they are as good for you, most of the benefits with the added benefit of slightly lower stress, faster recovery, you can do them more often...

    When I ramp it up I'll probably be doing 2 x 10 minute efforts as hard as I can once a week.

    Just some suggestions inseine.

    Also, have a look at the turbo training workout menu thread for a bit of variety....

    http://www.bikeradar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=16607436
  • inseineinseine Posts: 5,786
    I'll still be doing a Sunday club ride where I try to keep an even a pace as possible at around 75% but I'm not going to do 'junk' miles on the turbo or Saturdays and if that means just 2xturbo per week I think it's better than slogging along just to make up the hours.
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 79,667
    inseine wrote:
    I'll still be doing a Sunday club ride where I try to keep an even a pace as possible at around 75% but I'm not going to do 'junk' miles on the turbo or Saturdays and if that means just 2xturbo per week I think it's better than slogging along just to make up the hours.

    I'd suggest 2 interval sessions first week, 3 sessions week 2 and 3 and keep the long ride on Sundays, Then have an easy week (still do long ride...)

    Solely based on what I'm being told to do!!
  • a_n_ta_n_t Posts: 2,011
    Pokerface wrote:
    consistency is key. So riding once a week won't help much.

    Well thats me screwed! :)
    Manchester wheelers

    PB's
    10m 20:21 2014
    25m 53:18 20:13
    50m 1:57:12 2013
    100m Yeah right.
  • amaferangaamaferanga Posts: 6,789
    training%20levels.JPG
    More problems but still living....
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 79,667
    Mine are at 95% FTP.

    Oooh, it's highlighted FTP.

    erm.... FTP

    Didn't work that time :(
  • inseineinseine Posts: 5,786
    I'd suggest 2 interval sessions first week, 3 sessions week 2 and 3 and keep the long ride on Sundays, Then have an easy week (still do long ride...)

    Gunna try something like that.
  • amaferangaamaferanga Posts: 6,789
    For 2x20 I find that up to about 95% FTP I'm good for a quality session the following day, but if I do them at closer to FTP I need a rest or a lower L3 day to recover. I've been knocking back the intensity a bit this week as I'm doing extra turbo sessions to make up for missing my long weekend ride for the past 3 weekends. By Xmas eve I'll have done 12 days in a row, but that's barely going to make up for how little opportunity I'll get to cycle over Xmas :cry:
    More problems but still living....
  • I agree with inseine! Has anyone actually "burnt out" or ever met someone who has? I can understand someone who is competing at a high level taking it a bit easy in case of becoming over trained, but as most of us are a good bit below our physical potential, I really wonder does it make a difference? ( I have just started intervals also 4 x 5 min totally flat out with 3 minutes recovery in between) The Christmas TT beckons!
    “To understand me, you have to meet me and be around me. And then only if I'm in a good mood - don't meet me in a bad mood.”
  • SBezzaSBezza Posts: 2,173
    I agree with inseine! Has anyone actually "burnt out" ever met someone who has? I can understand someone who is competing at a high level taking it a bit easy in case of becoming over trained, but as most of us are a good bit below our physical potential, I really wonder does it make a difference?

    I think it is quite easy for an amateur to suffer from over training. It isn't just the training that creates stress in the body, other things in life cause stress. The body doesn't know what the cause of the stress is however.

    If you have a very stressful home and work life, and training very hard as well, and don't get enough recovery the body will rebel eventually.

    Alot of amateur's race at a very high level, maybe not pro level, but certainly they stress their bodies enormously. I have had club mates overtrain, and thinking it isn't possible for a part time rider to overtrain. IT is most certainly possible.

    I have heard of other riders doing lots of intensity in the winter, getting their FTP up, and then come the race season feeling worn out, and suffering as a result.

    As long as you get enough recovery from the stress you put the body under, and you build up progressively, I think it is harder to overtrain, but it is still possible.

    I came very close when I was building up to my 12 Hour TT this year, and that was just on pure volume and not alot of intensity :wink:
  • inseineinseine Posts: 5,786
    Thanks for agreeing with me Determination but I will actually be doing less hours and probably only doing 4 days a week training and around 7 hours. I find while not burnt out I need a day recovery between efforts.
  • ChiggyChiggy Posts: 261
    If one performs 2 x 20 @ 95% FTP many times, will one's FTP need retesting?

    2 x 20 @ 95% FTP is lower intensity than 1 x 60 @ 100% FTP.

    I know what would happen to me if I neglected 110% FTP for 20.
  • amaferangaamaferanga Posts: 6,789
    Chiggy wrote:
    If one performs 2 x 20 @ 95% FTP many times, will one's FTP need retesting?

    2 x 20 @ 95% FTP is lower intensity than 1 x 60 @ 100% FTP.

    I know what would happen to me if I neglected 110% FTP for 20.

    What are you on about now?

    If you do 2x20 @ 110% FTP then I suggest you retest your FTP.
    More problems but still living....
  • ChiggyChiggy Posts: 261
    amaferanga wrote:
    Chiggy wrote:
    If one performs 2 x 20 @ 95% FTP many times, will one's FTP need retesting?

    2 x 20 @ 95% FTP is lower intensity than 1 x 60 @ 100% FTP.

    I know what would happen to me if I neglected 110% FTP for 20.

    What are you on about now?
    If you do 2x20 @ 110% FTP then I suggest you retest your FTP.

    Ask a civil question, get a rude answer,

    Take note Newbies and Lurkers.
  • ChiggyChiggy Posts: 261
    I've been reading Coggan's website today.

    The 60 minute ergometer test is nothing new.
    All he's done is embellished it with a lot of science and renamed everything so his disciples can form an 'old boys club'.
  • P_TuckerP_Tucker Posts: 1,878
    Chiggy wrote:
    I've been reading Coggan's website today.

    The 60 minute ergometer test is nothing new.
    All he's done is embellished it with a lot of science and renamed everything so his disciples can form an 'old boys club'.

    I'm pretty sure he hasn't claimed to have invented it.
  • PokerfacePokerface Posts: 7,960
    edited December 2010
    amaferanga wrote:
    Chiggy wrote:
    If one performs 2 x 20 @ 95% FTP many times, will one's FTP need retesting?

    2 x 20 @ 95% FTP is lower intensity than 1 x 60 @ 100% FTP.

    I know what would happen to me if I neglected 110% FTP for 20.

    What are you on about now?

    If you do 2x20 @ 110% FTP then I suggest you retest your FTP.

    Why? (Seriously)


    Is it just because 20 mins at 110% FTP (twice) is too much? Certainly 105% is achievable....
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 79,667
    My max 20 minute power is only about 15 watts higher than my FTP. 110% of my FTP is about 15 watts higher than my max 20 min power! Therefore it would be impossible for me to do 2x20 at 110% FTP...
  • ChiggyChiggy Posts: 261
    Pokerface wrote:
    amaferanga wrote:
    Chiggy wrote:
    If one performs 2 x 20 @ 95% FTP many times, will one's FTP need retesting?

    2 x 20 @ 95% FTP is lower intensity than 1 x 60 @ 100% FTP.

    I know what would happen to me if I neglected 110% FTP for 20.

    What are you on about now?

    If you do 2x20 @ 110% FTP then I suggest you retest your FTP.

    Why? (Seriously)


    Is it just because 20 mins at 110FTP (twice) is too much? Certainly 105% is achievable....

    Response. ( Seriously ).

    I did a 60 minute session in March using my polar strap for feedback to the ergometer. I aimed for 155 BPM which was 85% of my Max.
    After 45 mins or so, there was a noticable reduction in load due to my HR drifting up. It waved around for the rest of the hour.
    Total kCals display on the machine was equivalent to 225 W.

    That's where I base my FTP. Will do another soon, but use 'constant mode' at 240 because I reckon I could do that.

    I could do 2 x 20 @ 110% which is 265 ish. I regularly do 40 mins straight off with a 235 result.

    Spending several days only performing 2 x 20 @ 95% of 240 would, in my mind, result in a loss of performance.

    I will give it a test. I will spend two weeks in Jan riding 2 x 20 @ 95%. Then I will try a 2 x 20 @ 110% and see how it feels.

    My first big 200 Audax of 2011 isn't until April, so I've two months to get any lost fitness back.

    Thanks. :)
  • PokerfacePokerface Posts: 7,960
    ^^^---- First off, if you want to do any sort of power testing and training, get a power measurement system that is accurate.


    Then follow a recognized testing protocol.


    Then, and only then, will you realize the error in what you are saying.

    If you can do 2x20 at 110% of your *actual* FTP, then you haven't set your FTP correctly.

    Furthermore, you'll find that doing sub-threshold efforts is the common practice for increasing threshold effectively. (Driving it up from below).

    Working above threshold trains you in a different way and isn't as effective.


    (This is my understanding)
  • SBezzaSBezza Posts: 2,173
    I don't train by power, but I have to agree with the guys that do, 95% to 105% is the range for doing 2 x 20 mins. If you can do them at 110% then your FTP is probably wrong.

    Trying to base power figures and effort on HR is pointless, first of all the ergo machine is likely to be very inaccurate, and may not even be repeatable. Even if is repeatable, the best way to work out your FTP, is go all out for 60 mins, and forget what your HR is. Obviously this is a very tough session, and alot of people will not be able to do it, so devise the estimated FTP from a 20 min test, again go as hard as you can for 20 mins, and this gives you a CP20, you can get a estimated FTP by taking 95% of this figure.

    Even if you do train at just below FTP, you still get the adaptions from doing it, as well as being able to recover to do training on subsequent days. If you do a 2 x 20 min session, and then have to take a rest day afterwards you are probably doing them too hard, or you are not getting your recovery correct.

    Even sessions in the sweetspot area will increase FTP, just not as much and as quick.
  • Chiggy wrote:
    I've been reading Coggan's website today.

    The 60 minute ergometer test is nothing new.
    All he's done is embellished it with a lot of science and renamed everything so his disciples can form an 'old boys club'.
    :lol:

    and your contribution to the knowledge of training includes.....
    .
    .
    .
    .



    <sound of crickets chirping>
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