Why are there no black Pro cyclists?
Comments
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Tom Butcher wrote:Doesn't the term social science come from an anglo-american positivist tradition ?
I know it is now applied to just about anything that might loosely be termed sociology but I'm not sure that it's fair to say the kind of theorists Rick is referencing could be accused of pretending what they do is a science - it's more the term social science has come to encompass more than it originally did.
It's certainly a little all-embracing.
Of course science used to be known as natural philosophy.....Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
Not a sh1t load of black dart players either0
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sportvan wrote:Some say that its mainly a social issue such as a possible poorer upbringing, so therefore it was easier to excel at football, athletics where the equipment costs are much lower and more opportunities. But this is really only part of the reason.
The main reason I would say is a physiological reason as black people tend to be more
muscular and therefore too heavy to really compete in the mountains. There are of course exceptions but the first reason usually cancels out this so therefore they don't pursue cycling as a sport.
LMFAO are you three?0 -
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Everyones ignored the IQ subject that came up earlier esp Rick.
Im sure i read some research in America that showed the Black IQ was (on average) slightly lower that that of white hispanic and asians. Clearley this has an impact on the uptake of cycling.
The American Psychological Association in a 1996 report stated that the US racial IQ gap was not the result of bias in the content or administration of tests, nor simply reflect differences in socio-economic status, but that no adequate explanation of it had so far been given.
There are differences between races to suggest otherwise is to ignore the evidence of our own eyes, Eg if i go to scandavia i expect the average bloke to be taller than in the uk.
Before anyone suggests im being racist Id like to say Im not, youre worng and i wont be partaking in this thread any further. Adios0 -
BarryBonds wrote:
Nah, give it time. England never let you down when it comes to sport :?0 -
The general topic of black athletes was briefly discussed on R4 last night. The presenter seems to be just above the 'man in the pub' level but the guests are good, so it is still quite interesting.
from about 12 minutes in...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00wlg3c/Thinking_Allowed_Over_by_Christmas_Race_Sport_and_Politics/0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:I always thought it was 'humanities' rather than 'social science'.
Economics and politics are social sciences rather than humanities.
Seeing as history and politics are so closely linked, I can't see why the distinction has been made, but I'm sure there's some reason for it.0 -
johnfinch wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:I always thought it was 'humanities' rather than 'social science'.
Economics and politics are social sciences rather than humanities.
Seeing as history and politics are so closely linked, I can't see why the distinction has been made, but I'm sure there's some reason for it.
I can't comment for politics, but since most historians spend the vast proportion of their time poring over literary sources, that don't yield finite or discreet information, the term 'science' would be a stretch, especially if you go all post-modern on what the source can actually tell you.
To take the wiki definition:Science (from the Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge") is an enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the natural world.
History is neither testable, nor apropriate to predict much (and anyone who claims it is, is wrong!).0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:johnfinch wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:I always thought it was 'humanities' rather than 'social science'.
Economics and politics are social sciences rather than humanities.
Seeing as history and politics are so closely linked, I can't see why the distinction has been made, but I'm sure there's some reason for it.
I can't comment for politics, but since most historians spend the vast proportion of their time poring over literary sources, that don't yield finite or discreet information, the term 'science' would be a stretch, especially if you go all post-modern on what the source can actually tell you.
To take the wiki definition:Science (from the Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge") is an enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the natural world.
History is neither testable, nor apropriate to predict much (and anyone who claims it is, is wrong!).
I'd say that politics has two areas which might be called a social science - comparative and international relations. The third area of studies is political theory, which I'd put under the arts/humanities label.0 -
BarryBonds wrote:Everyones ignored the IQ subject that came up earlier esp Rick.
Im sure i read some research in America that showed the Black IQ was (on average) slightly lower that that of white hispanic and asians. Clearley this has an impact on the uptake of cycling.
The American Psychological Association in a 1996 report stated that the US racial IQ gap was not the result of bias in the content or administration of tests, nor simply reflect differences in socio-economic status, but that no adequate explanation of it had so far been given.
There are differences between races to suggest otherwise is to ignore the evidence of our own eyes, Eg if i go to scandavia i expect the average bloke to be taller than in the uk.
Before anyone suggests im being racist Id like to say Im not, youre worng and i wont be partaking in this thread any further. Adios
Ah! The old Untermensch argument
Not worth commenting on really!0 -
BarryBonds wrote:Everyones ignored the IQ subject that came up earlier esp Rick.
Im sure i read some research in America that showed the Black IQ was (on average) slightly lower that that of white hispanic and asians. Clearley this has an impact on the uptake of cycling.
The American Psychological Association in a 1996 report stated that the US racial IQ gap was not the result of bias in the content or administration of tests, nor simply reflect differences in socio-economic status, but that no adequate explanation of it had so far been given.
There are differences between races to suggest otherwise is to ignore the evidence of our own eyes, Eg if i go to scandavia i expect the average bloke to be taller than in the uk.
Before anyone suggests im being racist Id like to say Im not, youre worng and i wont be partaking in this thread any further. Adios
I'd like to see a link to this study. Most of the ones I've seen generally have asians come out on top in terms of IQ (an aspect usually overlooked by white racists who wish to seize upon such studies).
Still, I'm sure there must be some post-colonial, post-modern, post-haste, post-rational explanation for it all.Le Blaireau (1)0 -
The genetic basis of IQ testing are in doubt as the scores are improving across the board every year so it is unclear exactly what they are measuring. The average person from forty years ago would now be edging into the special needs zone.
The educational underachievement of black pupils in the US disappears when they are measured against the capital assets that their parents have. (source: The Trouble with Diversity: How We Learned to Love Identity and Ignore Inequality by Walter Benn Michaels)
Every cyclists in the UK knows of mild middle aged white men who get sh#t from motorists when out cycling, I guess that many young black men suspect they would be treated worse when training alone.0 -
Is it 'cos they is black?
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Chrissz wrote:BarryBonds wrote:Everyones ignored the IQ subject that came up earlier esp Rick.
Im sure i read some research in America that showed the Black IQ was (on average) slightly lower that that of white hispanic and asians. Clearley this has an impact on the uptake of cycling.
The American Psychological Association in a 1996 report stated that the US racial IQ gap was not the result of bias in the content or administration of tests, nor simply reflect differences in socio-economic status, but that no adequate explanation of it had so far been given.
There are differences between races to suggest otherwise is to ignore the evidence of our own eyes, Eg if i go to scandavia i expect the average bloke to be taller than in the uk.
Before anyone suggests im being racist Id like to say Im not, youre worng and i wont be partaking in this thread any further. Adios
Ah! The old Untermensch argument
Not worth commenting on really!
Not really, dismissing it is worse. There cant be differences there just cant it doesnt fit into wht i want to believe wahhhhhh Were all the same species just different race/breed if it can be accepted in farming where we cross breeds to get the characsteristics we want why is it so difficult to accept about ourselves?? I havent seen many freisans cycling in the Alps either though it would be fun to watch.
TBH0 -
BarryBonds wrote:Chrissz wrote:BarryBonds wrote:Everyones ignored the IQ subject that came up earlier esp Rick.
Im sure i read some research in America that showed the Black IQ was (on average) slightly lower that that of white hispanic and asians. Clearley this has an impact on the uptake of cycling.
The American Psychological Association in a 1996 report stated that the US racial IQ gap was not the result of bias in the content or administration of tests, nor simply reflect differences in socio-economic status, but that no adequate explanation of it had so far been given.
There are differences between races to suggest otherwise is to ignore the evidence of our own eyes, Eg if i go to scandavia i expect the average bloke to be taller than in the uk.
Before anyone suggests im being racist Id like to say Im not, youre worng and i wont be partaking in this thread any further. Adios
Ah! The old Untermensch argument
Not worth commenting on really!
Not really, dismissing it is worse. There cant be differences there just cant it doesnt fit into wht i want to believe wahhhhhh Were all the same species just different race/breed if it can be accepted in farming where we cross breeds to get the characsteristics we want why is it so difficult to accept about ourselves?? I havent seen many freisans cycling in the Alps either though it would be fun to watch.
TBH
There is still an IQ gap across all socio-economic groups in the USA, but what is important to note is that IQ is not static - it changes over time, due to factors such as improved education and nutrition. Whether the gap between blacks and white is narrowing is disputed - some researchers have found that the gap has closed by about 5 or 6 points, others believe it has remained stable.
As widespread systematic discrimination against blacks was a reality in the USA until only a generation or 2 ago, this is a question which probably won't be answered for another few generations.
A very brief overview of the subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_IQ
FWIW, my personal view on the subject is that environment is the most important factor in determining intelligence. Shove a child in front of TV and shovel junk food down their mouth and the chances are your dead-eyed sprog will end up hanging around shopping centres grunting at his/her friends.0 -
This thread has drifted far and wide.
I dont think there can be much doubt that the lack of 'black' cyclists in the pro-peloton is a product of socio-economic and cultural factors rather than "genetics".
The science of race is a very fraught issue. I think Rick's point throughout this thread has been that scientific classifications, systems are at some level cultural constructs (whether that is the culture of a particular science or of a society) and dont exist in some objective vacuum. The notion that 'good' scientists are not influenced by such things is disproven by history. It's still worth reading Kuhn's work on scientific paradigms and DaveyL in particular might want to give it a try - I have no idea what your background is but you are not showering yourself in glory in this thread with your frankly antidiluvian perception of the place of science in the world and the relative value of social sciences.0 -
And you are not showering yourself in glory by commenting on things which you don't understand.
Since you either missed my point the first time, or willfully ignored it, I never said that "good" scientists would or would not be influenced. I said that if there was a flaw in a piece of research, it was up to the critic to specifically point out that flaw and how it had arisen, either through poor experimenting, data collection, inappropriate drawing of conclusions etc., without having to resort to specious post-modern rubbish (I'm trying to be kind). That's how science works.
See for example the recent controversy over the NASA "arsenic life" paper.The work has been criticised a lot since publication, but by people *who know and understand the area* levelling specific criticisms about the way the work has been carried out and how the results could have been misinterpreted.
And by the way, I am still waiting for someone here to do similar with this Science paper.Le Blaireau (1)0 -
Economics is far from a science.johnfinch wrote:Economics and politics are social sciences rather than humanities.
At the stock exchange level, the closest rule it might occasionally follow is that - what some people think might happen, they then act upon in the belief their ideas will come true, and they start a ball rolling, often without any real justification.
At retail level, advertising, unpredictable whims, momentary fashions and the needs of big companies to ‘dispose’ of certain items, play more a role than the old-fashioned, more semi-scientific rules of supply and demand.
It many ways, Economics is a bit like a religion - a mixture of blind faith and varying prejudices and dreams, with a bit of necessity thrown in.0 -
Back to the original subject;
There is an interview on marathon talk podcast a couple of weeks back with Prof. Tim Noakes (a very respected sports scientist) which brushes on this subject. He is of the opinion that there is a genetic element to the dominance of east Africans in distance running, although he also pointed out that Kenyan and Ethiopians have a completely different genetic background.
Extrapolating from this my opinion is that if/when east Africans start cycling comparatively they will probably be very good. However I don't see this happening in the forseeable future. At the moment all the talented endurance athletes are out to emulate Sammy Wanjiru or Haile Gebrasellassie.
Also, have you seen the state of the roads in Kenya?
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So - what's the concensus? All other things being equal (upbringing, opportunity, economic stability etc), black kids would make better cyclists that white kids? I find that very difficult to accept.
Mark Cavendish (I appreciate he isn't black) is a very good example of being very strong in areas, whcih are difficult to measure on a graph - heart & sheer mental determination. By his own admission he doesn't post big 'numbers', but that means little, when the finsih line is 500m away. Sufferening is an important (perhaps the most important) part of cycling.
There are so many variables in this equation, that trying to arrive at a credible view is an exercise in futility.0 -
ShinyHelmut wrote:At the moment all the talented endurance athletes are out to emulate Sammy Wanjiru or Haile Gebrasellassie.
I think that pretty much sums it up. Kids will want to mimic their sporting idols whether they're in Africa or Europe, and they're more likely to identify with heroes from their own ethnic grouping. There are no black riders in the pro-peloton because there are no black riders in the pro-peloton. That may start to change if someone like Teklehaimot can succeed at the highest level. The interview with him in October's Cyclosport sheds some light on the difficulties facing cyclists from poorer countries. Eritrea, my mother's native land and one of the few African nations with a cycling culture, was at war with Ethiopia for many years. Generations of young men will have had more pressing concerns to deal with than their VO2 max or power/weight ratios.0 -
pedro118118 wrote:So - what's the concensus? All other things being equal (upbringing, opportunity, economic stability etc), black kids would make better cyclists that white kids? I find that very difficult to accept.
Mark Cavendish (I appreciate he isn't black) is a very good example of being very strong in areas, whcih are difficult to measure on a graph - heart & sheer mental determination. By his own admission he doesn't post big 'numbers', but that means little, when the finsih line is 500m away. Sufferening is an important (perhaps the most important) part of cycling.
There are so many variables in this equation, that trying to arrive at a credible view is an exercise in futility.
The key point with Cavendish's speed is that he is very aerodynamic compared to the likes of Hushovd. Less powerful, but faster.0 -
http://knightsofmobay.com/Major_Taylor_ ... Clubs.html
Knights of Mo'Bay listing of several Major Taylor Cycling Clubs I have heard about and I might as well say, I have seen one such club and a white guy was wearing a Major Taylor Club jersey. Who these Knights are I don't know. Learned something new. Interesting gear too, some Rasta but not all, for me it's costly, you can get real good cycling jerseys on ebay for practically nothing, it's just that they may not be that distinctive in pattern if you want to wear the Union Jack or whatever tons of designs fits your fancy.0 -
Maurice Burton - very nice guy - I met him years ago on the L2B ride. What surprised me was the rather large, fast chain-gang made up entirely of black riders! I caught up with them and got chatting. Maurice was a Pro cyclist and now runs a shop (De Ver Cycles) in London.
http://www.devercycles.co.uk/biographies.htm
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/default.a ... ry&id=35960 -
BarryBonds wrote:Before anyone suggests im being racist Id like to say Im not, youre worng and i wont be partaking in this thread any further. AdiosBarryBonds at a later date wrote:Not really, dismissing it is worse. There cant be differences there just cant it doesnt fit into wht i want to believe wahhhhhh Were all the same species just different race/breed if it can be accepted in farming where we cross breeds to get the characsteristics we want why is it so difficult to accept about ourselves?? I havent seen many freisans cycling in the Alps either though it would be fun to watch.
TBH
So much for not partaking any further!0 -
BarryBonds wrote:Everyones ignored the IQ subject that came up earlier esp Rick.
Im sure i read some research in America that showed the Black IQ was (on average) slightly lower that that of white hispanic and asians. Clearley this has an impact on the uptake of cycling.
The American Psychological Association in a 1996 report stated that the US racial IQ gap was not the result of bias in the content or administration of tests, nor simply reflect differences in socio-economic status, but that no adequate explanation of it had so far been given.
There are differences between races to suggest otherwise is to ignore the evidence of our own eyes, Eg if i go to scandavia i expect the average bloke to be taller than in the uk.
Before anyone suggests im being racist Id like to say Im not, youre worng and i wont be partaking in this thread any further. Adios
By the way, this research http://www.brookings.edu/views/papers/dickens/20060619_iq.pdf which is 10 years more recent suggests the gap is closing. I haven't read the report in full but would have thought that a conclusion that could be drawn is that given equal opportunity (which has only been occurring for a few decades at best) then there is no reason why the average IQ of a Black American wouldn't catch up with that of his white countrymen.0 -
Chrissz wrote:Maurice Burton - very nice guy - I met him years ago on the L2B ride. What surprised me was the rather large, fast chain-gang made up entirely of black riders! I caught up with them and got chatting. Maurice was a Pro cyclist and now runs a shop (De Ver Cycles) in London.
http://www.devercycles.co.uk/biographies.htm
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/default.a ... ry&id=3596
His son who is 15/16 is suppose to be a very lively guy on a bike. Expected to have a very bright future!0
