Turbo Session v Road miles

Chiggy

Is Coggan's 4th power relationship also true if the output power is doubled from 5 to 10 Watts? Or is is just in the aerobic to anerobic states transition scenario?

Ride along in aerobic condition, and double the power output so you go into anerobic activity. Maybe so.
That's common knowledge.

Some of us who are quite well trained don't get anaerobic until we're well over 350 W, so transitioning between 150 and 250 W doesn't hurt.

If YOUR transition is from 150 to 450, I'm not bloody surprised you hurt and give up after 5 repeats...

Oh and BTW, Watts is a capital Letter because it was a bloke's name, James Watt. Give him some credit. Same applies to Joule and Newton, but not to metre and kilogram.

Chiggy

Watts are in direct correlation to Joules per second and kCals/min.
I've been a part of research in this very scenario. Fluctuating loads, both within the aerobic condition vs continuous effort.
What is not in direct correlation with the three units above is heartrate. It is the body's reaction to the nervous system's assessment of the situation one's senses detect.

Results showed that HR is non linear with effort. Results also showed that the average HR was similar if the two load conditions were in the rider's aerobic work region.

How do we correlate 'Fatigue' with heart rate? Or do we? Do we correlate fatigue with total calories used vs energy storage levels? Or do we correlate fatigue with Blood Lactate levels?

It is common knowledge Lactic acid and Lactate build up in the muscles inhibit the sliding filament movement.
Is this what Coggan sees as 'incredibly increased fatigue' when transitioning the workload from aerobic to anaerobic activity?

Lion-O

ok so question.

if you did ALL your training on a turbo and no outside rides do you think you could last a 1st cat 90 mile road race?

please be brutally honest.

Chiggy

Lion-O wrote:

ok so question.

if you did ALL your training on a turbo and no outside rides do you think you could last a 1st cat 90 mile road race?

please be brutally honest.

Is that the same as doing all your training in a swim-spa and then going to the pool event and winning the race?

jibberjim

Lion-O wrote:

ok so question.

if you did ALL your training on a turbo and no outside rides do you think you could last a 1st cat 90 mile road race?

please be brutally honest.

Of course it's possible, turboing is close enough to cycling that it will probably transfer reasonably well. Sitting in a 1st cat race is not that hard in how good you have to be (ie it's only say have to be top 10% rather than top 0.1% to sit in a mountain stage of the TDF) but it's still a pretty tough job for most people to get to no matter how they they train. Doing it all on the turbo would just make it harder.

To race for 3-4 hours you also need a high training load as in lots of volume - now that volume doesn't have to come from long rides, but it's difficult to get to high volumes without doing so. So you'll need some long rides on the turbo.

cakewalk

jibberjim wrote:

Lion-O wrote:

ok so question.

if you did ALL your training on a turbo and no outside rides do you think you could last a 1st cat 90 mile road race?

please be brutally honest.

Of course it's possible, turboing is close enough to cycling that it will probably transfer reasonably well. Sitting in a 1st cat race is not that hard in how good you have to be (ie it's only say have to be top 10% rather than top 0.1% to sit in a mountain stage of the TDF) but it's still a pretty tough job for most people to get to no matter how they they train. Doing it all on the turbo would just make it harder.

To race for 3-4 hours you also need a high training load as in lots of volume - now that volume doesn't have to come from long rides, but it's difficult to get to high volumes without doing so. So you'll need some long rides on the turbo.

Well yes and no.

I completed the Cingles du Ventoux this year. Only 300 miles on road - lots of turbo (work pressure limited training time).

Suffered real pain in lower back. I presume this is because turbo training does not completely replicate what your body does on a moving bike. So your supporting, core muscles are not put through their paces.

jibberjim

cakewalk wrote:

Well yes and no.

I completed the Cingles du Ventoux this year. Only 300 miles on road - lots of turbo (work pressure limited training time).

You certainly don't need a high training load to complete Cingles du Ventoux, but that's nothing like racing. For me I can race - as in feel strong throughout and put out close to my realistic power outputs throughout up to about 2 and a half to 3 times my daily training load. If I go above that then I will generally fade very badly at the end.

I could complete probably 8 or 9 times my daily training load - it wouldn't be necessarily fun and I would likely need to pace myself carefully. I certainly would have no qualms entering a sportive or a challenge like the Cingles on nothing but max 1 hour turbo workouts. But I couldn't do a 3 to 4 hour road race on such training unless I was doing double sessions a day regularly (ie I would need a training load of 110 or so to do a 90mile road race and to get that would need more than 1 hour on the turbo per day) I'm not saying I would need to do long slow rides or outdoor - just that it's difficult to get to that sort of volume without doing it.

Pokerface

P_Tucker wrote:

Taking this to it's logical conclusion, next time I'm doing a 25 and I feel a bit tired with 5 to go, I'll just crank it up by 50 watts.

I think the scenario is actually more like if you were tired with 5 to go - if you were to soft pedal for a few minutes, you would THEN be able to crank it up. Any rest period means you can go a little harder afterwards. Maybe not 50w harder (at least not for 5 miles).


You are taking the scenarios to the extreme. For YOU - steady state riding is the easiest way to achieve a given wattage.

But for ME - I find it easier with more peaks and valleys in the efforts - more akin to a road race - while you prefer TT style, if you will.

Chiggy

You could build the strength and endurance for a Cat 1 race by training on the turbo.

The problem arises when cornering happens......

Chiggy

Like man... It's possible to tune the Engine management of a Ferrari on the chassis dyno and not have front wheels on the car.
Then put the front wheels on, take it on the race circuit and it slides off at the first corner....

Chiggy

The purpose of road rides in excess of 200km is to train the Perineum to make freinds with the saddle.

jonmack

Chiggy, every post you make has an EDIT button, you should probably use it rather than triple posting.

Chiggy

jonmack wrote:

Chiggy, every post you make has an EDIT button, you should probably use it rather than triple posting.

The trouble with long, long posts is people skim and don't absorb the gist.

jonmack

I wouldn't have said 6 lines was a long post.

Chiggy

jonmack wrote:

I wouldn't have said 6 lines was a long post.

The attention span of a management grade staff is two sentances.

I was advised to 'dumb it down', so I've brought the posts down to a level even the most time starved folks will afford a full read.

amaferanga

Chiggy wrote:

jonmack wrote:

I wouldn't have said 6 lines was a long post.

The attention span of a management grade staff is two sentances.

I was advised to 'dumb it down', so I've brought the posts down to a level even the most time starved folks will afford a full read.

I like you way you assume that you actually have something to say that people should be taking note of

Chiggy

amaferanga wrote:

Chiggy wrote:

jonmack wrote:

I wouldn't have said 6 lines was a long post.

The attention span of a management grade staff is two sentances.

I was advised to 'dumb it down', so I've brought the posts down to a level even the most time starved folks will afford a full read.

I like you way you assume that you actually have something to say that people should be taking note of

I like the way you assume the other posters here think they know everything.

jonmack

This is the internet, of course everyone knows everything.

Anyway I feel guilty taking this horribly off topic sooooo...

My legs hurt more after a turbo session at ~30k av than they do on the road at ~30k av.

Chiggy

jonmack wrote:

This is the internet, of course everyone knows everything.

Anyway I feel guilty taking this horribly off topic sooooo...

My legs hurt more after a turbo session at ~30k av than they do on the road at ~30k av.

That's because your road ride is a quick dash to the off licence and your turbo session is a three hour effort while watching The Sound Of Music.

amaferanga

Chiggy wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

Chiggy wrote:

jonmack wrote:

I wouldn't have said 6 lines was a long post.

The attention span of a management grade staff is two sentances.

I was advised to 'dumb it down', so I've brought the posts down to a level even the most time starved folks will afford a full read.

I like you way you assume that you actually have something to say that people should be taking note of

I like the way you assume the other posters here think they know everything.

....when in fact the only person who knows everything is actually you?

Pokerface

Chiggy wrote:

jonmack wrote:

I wouldn't have said 6 lines was a long post.

The attention span of a management grade staff is two sentances.

I was advised to 'dumb it down', so I've brought the posts down to a level even the most time starved folks will afford a full read.

Yeah - but now you are just talking gibberish. No relation whatsoever to the topic at hand.

There's dumbing it down, and then there's going off completely on unrelated tangents for no apparent reason.

rick_chasey

amaferanga wrote:

....when in fact the only person who knows everything is actually you?

No, that's me.

Chiggy

Been to the gym to conduct a quick test.

1st session. 200 W continuous absorption in 'constant' mode. 40 minutes. HR ~ 146 BPM. Total cals 520 ( Displayed ).

2nd session. 'Random' in 'Bike' mode on level 17 averaging ~200 W over 40 minutes.

Observations

1/ Max Wattage absorption in second session 340. Min Wattage 120.
2/ Opportunity to honking at Max Wattage. A pleasant respite.
3/ Deep breathing at low settings prep'ed me for next high setting phase.
4/ HR about the same. Delay confused matters. Maybe some cardiac drift after 30 minutes.

My legs feel like I've just finished a Brevet 100.

masterchef

iv been doing 3 hours on mt turbo now for 3 nights running gonna have a break tonight as i think iv done enought for today lmao, havent been going slow iv been keeping 15-20mph all the way for 3hours will this help me much or is this to much training for the middle of winter??

Lion-O

ive had a thought! believe it or not! but all this talk etc we all have different turbos right?

we all believe we are right?

but not all training works across the board! i know what works for me! an i apologise to tucker for being rude because i was to that post and i do mean that! im sorry.


im no superstar but won races and i know what works for me so i will stick to it. if it works for you then i say do it! but what works for me wont suit another rider.

if it fits do it!

P_Tucker

Pokerface wrote:

P_Tucker wrote:

Taking this to it's logical conclusion, next time I'm doing a 25 and I feel a bit tired with 5 to go, I'll just crank it up by 50 watts.

I think the scenario is actually more like if you were tired with 5 to go - if you were to soft pedal for a few minutes, you would THEN be able to crank it up. Any rest period means you can go a little harder afterwards. Maybe not 50w harder (at least not for 5 miles).


You are taking the scenarios to the extreme. For YOU - steady state riding is the easiest way to achieve a given wattage.

But for ME - I find it easier with more peaks and valleys in the efforts - more akin to a road race - while you prefer TT style, if you will.

I merely refer to the physiological responses to the workload - as I say, real sports scientists have done actual research on this.

I still struggle to understand why, if you feel that you need peaks and valleys, you can't achieve this on a turbo.

Pokerface

P_Tucker wrote:

I still struggle to understand why, if you feel that you need peaks and valleys, you can't achieve this on a turbo.

I can't do out of the saddle efforts on the turbo - but can on the road. These type of efforts very quickly get the average wattage back up again.

Chiggy

Pokerface wrote:

P_Tucker wrote:

I still struggle to understand why, if you feel that you need peaks and valleys, you can't achieve this on a turbo.

I can't do out of the saddle efforts on the turbo - but can on the road. These type of efforts very quickly get the average wattage back up again.

See Observation 2/.

Of course this has been know since the invention of the bicycle, made famous by Charlie Holland's book 'Dancing uphill'.

itboffin

Just back from the hospital, Doc says 3-5 weeks and I can get back out on the road hopefully, 10-12 days and I can hit the turbo

Meanwhile I shall see just how much weight I can gain :?

P_Tucker

Lion-O wrote:

but not all training works across the board! i know what works for me! an i apologise to tucker for being rude because i was to that post and i do mean that! im sorry.!

No need to apologise - its the internet FFS - but if you feel you must I accept.

In other news, 3:15 on the turbo this morning. I've discovered a whole new level of tedium that makes sitting through grandpa's holiday snaps seem as exciting as walking in on Scarlett J and Natalie Portman kissing in the shower.