Gym work to increase speed ...?

poacherjake

OK, first post so bear with me.

Just got myself a road bike and went out for my first ever ride 'in anger' over the weekend: 3 laps of Richmond Park ( - which is a 7-mile undulating / bumpy circuit). At about 23.30 each in wet and windy conditions.

I'm a fellrunner by trade and lazily thought I'd step right in at a faster level than that - but hey, just goes to show ... So my first target is to get down to lapping RP at 20 mins. (I'll do RP every Saturday and some Sundays as my stock ride.)

Aerobically / CV-wise I think I'm pretty fit, although most of my fell runs were endurance events so working at / above threshold for an hour is still something I need to work at.

But it was the legs that were really screaming and holding me back, so I'm looking at doing some strengthening work in the gym during the week. Specifically:

1) Weighted squats and lunges; and

2) Exercise bike progs - but which sort? I am thinking those with higher resistance forcing you to push are better for building leg strength than those where you spin at high cadence?

Good plan?

Ta in advance.

softlad

just ride the bike a bit more often - you will improve. Riding your bike once and then diving back into the gym is not the answer.....

poacherjake

softlad wrote:

just ride the bike a bit more often - you will improve

softlad, it's a bit tricky as I live in the City and now it's dark at 4pm ... not sure if Richmond Park in the dark is an option ... I will do the RP circuits at least once every weekend, hopefully twice most weekends.

I do ride to and from work every day but that is only a 2.75-mile, 10-minute ride and very urban with lots of lights, junctions etc, so it's basically junk miles.

unless there's a way to convert that into useful training? ride in a very high gear?

Bronzie

It's turbo time!

jibberjim

Bronzie wrote:

It's turbo time!

There are nighttime rideable routes near Richmond Park where it's pretty easy to get a good solid hour's work in at night without being hurt too much by lights and traffic.

I live near and have never felt the need to resort to the turbo.

Pokerface

Squats and lunges - or leg weights of any sort will not increase your speed*

Especially as you already have sufficient leg strength from running - additional leg muscle will just slow you down. Weights are great for track sprinters who need explosive, short-term power, but for endurance riding - the best thing you can do is ride more often and/or ride at higher intensities.

As for the exercise bike - I would think that the spinning at a higher cadence will benefit you a LOT more than pushing against higher resistance. Again - it's about building endurance strength - not being able to push a big gear for a short distance. Being able to spin at a higher cadence and maintain that over the full distance will improve your average speeds much more than being able to go fast for a few minutes.






*sweeping generalization.

danlikesbikes

If the gym is the only option due to the dark nights there is no need to worry.

Over the winter you need to be building leg strength so yep squats & core work will do you good. Plus on top of the gym cycles get yourself into some spin classes, whilst they are not always that specific and quite often can't get you the results of a good turbo session they are quite good fun.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Poacherjake wrote:

Aerobically / CV-wise I think I'm pretty fit, although most of my fell runs were endurance events so working at / above threshold for an hour is still something I need to work at.

You might think that, but it is still your aerobic metabolism that's your limiter.

Poacherjake wrote:

But it was the legs that were really screaming and holding me back, so I'm looking at doing some strengthening work in the gym during the week. Specifically:

Strength isn't your limiter. Unless you are exceptionally frail (e.g. you couldn't stand up/walk), then you already have plenty of strength to ride a bike fast.

By far the best training for improving cycling performance is cycling. So I suggest finding novel ways to do more bike riding.

freehub

It's ok the ride in the dark you know!

Bronzie

freehub wrote:

It's ok the ride in the dark you know!

Yes indeed, I don't mind riding in the dark but I find it difficult to do harder sessions on dark lanes when you can only see 20m ahead. I find it easier to do more consistent sessions on the turbo at this time of year, but each to their own.

Also as the OP points out, built up areas with lots of traffic and traffic lights make it hard to keep the intensity up...........but agree it's not impossible if you can find a good circuit.

phil s

If you live in the City then Regents Park is better for evening rides. 2.75 mile circuit, two junctions with traffic lights and two ped-x-ing lights, a bit of a drag and nice, wide road. I like night time riding as I ride more on feel, less by looking at computer numbers - and I'm usually pleasantly surprised with the results when I download the data back at home.
Anyway, long story short - gym work is good for strengthening and for alternative training, but to get faster on the bike you gotta ride your bike.

poacherjake

thanks all - loads of food for thought there

one thing I'm not going to do is ride training circuits around London streets at night in the winter - that seems like an easy way to end up in hospital to me ... But I believe people actually do ride RP circuits at night - it is closed off to traffic after dark so there's an option maybe.

The logic on the leg strengthening was that stronger legs will tire more slowly, but maybe that's not how 'strength endurance' works then?

the other thing I am doing in the gym is the cross-trainer - which I find I can hammer away at for 40-60 mins at quite high intensity ... more so than the exercise bike which I find tedious and painful ...

But sounds like the best thing I can do is make sure I get out round RP every Sunday as well as every Saturday.

Ta

SBezza

Poacherjake wrote:

the other thing I am doing in the gym is the cross-trainer - which I find I can hammer away at for 40-60 mins at quite high intensity ... more so than the exercise bike which I find tedious and painful ...

It will be painful until your legs get used to the muscles working differently. As mentioned above cycling above all else is what you need to do.

If you can only get out 2 days of the week, it will be slow progress, cycling around in the dark isn't that bad. If you can do laps of RP in the dark with no traffic, that sounds like a nice way to do it in my mind.

poacherjake

SBezza wrote:

If you can only get out 2 days of the week, it will be slow progress, cycling around in the dark isn't that bad. If you can do laps of RP in the dark with no traffic, that sounds like a nice way to do it in my mind.

Ok I'll look into this, get a good spotlight for the front maybe - don't think it's well lit round there.

Bronzie

Poacherjake wrote:

The logic on the leg strengthening was that stronger legs will tire more slowly, but maybe that's not how 'strength endurance' works then?

Muscle strength alone is rarely a limiter for any cycling event lasting more than a 30 seconds or so. Transporting oxygen from the atmosphere to your muscle cells where it helps fuel the production of energy is the limiter, but with training this can be improved significantly.

Poacherjake wrote:

But sounds like the best thing I can do is make sure I get out round RP every Sunday as well as every Saturday.

Banging round RP at full gas on 2 consecutive days on a weekly basis is probably not the best approach. Try and fit some longer endurance rides into your week as well if at all possible.

Pokerface

Poacherjake wrote:

The logic on the leg strengthening was that stronger legs will tire more slowly, but maybe that's not how 'strength endurance' works then?

Most people assume that the burning in their legs is because they aren't strong enough and don't have enough muscle strength. When what it really means (as others have pointed out) is that they aren't getting enough oxygen - and the lactic acid is building up.

The more you ride, the better your body will get at getting the oxygen to your muscles - and you'll be able to ride longer and harder before they start to burn!

Lifting weights will just make the muscles bigger - not more efficient at using oxygen. So, in theory, the bigger muscles will need MORE oxygen and unless you increase you efficiency -they will just start to burn sooner.

poacherjake

Pokerface, thanks - v informative.

Bronzie also, roger your wisdom (erm, as it were).

UpTheWall

Welcome to the sport of the gods.

Mind fellrunning sounds like a real blast.

Anyway, to up your cycling strength, I agree, cycling is by far the best method.

Muscle bulk wont help.

Also worth looking at heart rate based training and intervals.

You don't need to hammer it round RP every training session. Gentle recovery rides are just as important as the hard sessions.

I did the Lance Armstrong 8 week training program years ago when I was coming back from injury, (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lance-Armstrong ... 1405099917) and you'll be surprised to see that most of the week you'll be cycling at a pretty easy pace. i was shocked to see how quickly my stats went up.

The book will give you a great intro into all aspects of road cycling, from group riding, to different training regimes be it for distance rides or time trials.

poacherjake

ta upthewall

I believe the LA plan involves getting out on the bike every night - not something I can easily do at the moment but maybe I just need to investigate London night-time friendly routes a bit more

don't have either a turbo or a heart-rate monitor yet ... nor even any bike-mounted computer

am just timing my RP circuits by watch

UpTheWall

Poacherjake wrote:

ta upthewall

I believe the LA plan involves getting out on the bike every night - not something I can easily do at the moment but maybe I just need to investigate London night-time friendly routes a bit more

don't have either a turbo or a heart-rate monitor yet ... nor even any bike-mounted computer

am just timing my RP circuits by watch

Well how about this rough and ready idea then: If I underrstand right you've got your commute, and your two weekend rides. Have maybe two high intensity rides a week, one commute and one weekend ride, and make sure the next day is done at a pace where you never get out of breath, where it feels easy. That'll be the recovery ride. That really helps you get fitter quicker, by aiding the recovery from the hard effort the day before and working on more endurance.

Simply goingfor the fastest time will certainly up your thresholds / oxygen uptake at the high end, but wont help your endurance, and you wont get fit as quickly as mixing in recovery rides.

I'll probably be shot down by some dude that has read a c+ article on the latest magical interval approach, but this is a simplified method of a tried and tested approach.

irezumi

Going against the grain here.

I found a few years ago that in winter/the off season doing Squats and deadlifts 3 times a week. I'm very light and although I put on some weight all it did was help with my climbing. It also made me faster overall as along with plenty of abdominal exercises it allowed me to maintain better posture on the bike and therefore cycle harder for longer.

Also, lifting weights does not mean you will gain muscle mass (i.e. weight), the amount of weight used and the amount of repetitions and sets performed will greatly affect this.

Alex_Simmons/RST

irezumi wrote:

Also, lifting weights does not mean you will gain muscle mass (i.e. weight), the amount of weight used and the amount of repetitions and sets performed will greatly affect this.

yes, I find pushing ~ 10-20 kg up to 6000 times per hour does the trick.

poacherjake

irezumi wrote:

although I put on some weight all it did was help with my climbing. It also made me faster overall as along with plenty of abdominal exercises it allowed me to maintain better posture on the bike and therefore cycle harder for longer.

Also, lifting weights does not mean you will gain muscle mass (i.e. weight), the amount of weight used and the amount of repetitions and sets performed will greatly affect this.

these are what I had thought might be the benefits, but far better expressed ...

anyway, I got on the exercise bike for an hour last night and even setting the progs at fairly high levels found I was pushing it round at 100-120 rpm for the whole session.

It was tough and I myst have lost a gallon in sweat but is that spinning too fast? Should I be setting a higher resistance and pedalling at a lower cadence?

find the posture on the bike v uncomfortable though - the seat is only adjustable for height and not distance from the bars. To get the pedals in what feels like the right riding position means sitting right forward so the dolphin's nose of the saddle is poking right in the old perineum ...

reacher

irezumi wrote:

Going against the grain here.

I found a few years ago that in winter/the off season doing Squats and deadlifts 3 times a week. I'm very light and although I put on some weight all it did was help with my climbing. It also made me faster overall as along with plenty of abdominal exercises it allowed me to maintain better posture on the bike and therefore cycle harder for longer.

Also, lifting weights does not mean you will gain muscle mass (i.e. weight), the amount of weight used and the amount of repetitions and sets performed will greatly affect this.

same , if you have legs like chickens you will not be a good cyclists , pure and simple , everything stems from the power they put out , the same rule applys in all sports thats why so much gym work is done off season by athletes , the aerobic/endurance side is built on the bike for sure , but transporting oxegen to a pair of paper thin thighs will achieve nothing but the ability to turn pedals quickly for long distances on the flat spinning ,

to say that big leg muscles are not needed is ridiculous , when was the last time you saw a top male athlete with legs like a tart in any sport

DaveyL

amaferanga

reacher wrote:

same , if you have legs like chickens you will not be a good cyclists , pure and simple....

Really?

amaferanga

Damn, beat me to it

starlet_gt

reacher wrote:

irezumi wrote:

Going against the grain here.

I found a few years ago that in winter/the off season doing Squats and deadlifts 3 times a week. I'm very light and although I put on some weight all it did was help with my climbing. It also made me faster overall as along with plenty of abdominal exercises it allowed me to maintain better posture on the bike and therefore cycle harder for longer.

Also, lifting weights does not mean you will gain muscle mass (i.e. weight), the amount of weight used and the amount of repetitions and sets performed will greatly affect this.

same , if you have legs like chickens you will not be a good cyclists , pure and simple , everything stems from the power they put out , the same rule applys in all sports thats why so much gym work is done off season by athletes , the aerobic/endurance side is built on the bike for sure , but transporting oxegen to a pair of paper thin thighs will achieve nothing but the ability to turn pedals quickly for long distances on the flat spinning ,

to say that big leg muscles are not needed is ridiculous , when was the last time you saw a top male athlete with legs like a tart in any sport

I know a 15 year old with incredibly skinny legs, restricted gearing etc, 10 mile TT in the 24's, so you don't need massive legs....

ut_och_cykla

I think the answer is you need muscle for the body frame you have & work you want to do... pure mountain riders are small, light,skinny, small body frames and don't need such a big engine to drive them upwards, fast riders on the flat are less hampered by gravity and can be bigger generally , more muscley - but perhaps dont need such big engines whilst on the flat - interesting discussion here

http://www.endurancecorner.com/strength_and_endurance

The claim that gym work wont help your endurance performance is correct but I feel that gym work can help with many other aspects of cycling and shouldn't necessarily be excluded. Also weight training is a complex process and its effects are decided by your own body type (e.g women generally lack the hormone quantities to get 'big), how much and what you eat - you can't build much muscle without a sufficient protein intake, and the mix of reps and sets you use.

Its my understanding that The oft recommended middle rep range of around 10 (which stimulates growth) builds muscle more than lower reps (& heavier weights ) around 5, which recruit many more fibres for strength but tends not to stimulate growth. So my take would be if you want to do gym work - learn to do it heavy and hard for legs and back , and you will get the core benefits as a bonus.

but thats just what I think - others think otherwise. I do know that Swedish rider Emma J (silver olympics in China) puts her great progress down to very heavy off season weight training, which she says has given her better legs and better staying power on the bike generally- her words not mine....

Pokerface

Tour de France winning legs of Andy Schleck*





*Subject to ban of Alberto Contador

AidanR

There's a difference between big legs and strong legs. Not all weight training is the same - that's like saying track cycling and sportives are the same thing. Sure, you get stacked blokes sculpting their guns in gyms, and obviously that kind of training is of no use to cyclists. But you can gain a lot of strength and (importantly) power with relatively little gain in muscle mass. Weight training is always going to be complimentary to training on a bike, but to say it is of no use simply isn't true.