is a University Education good value for money ?
Comments
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Jez mon wrote:spen666 wrote:It would have been interesting to know:
a) what job each poster here does
b) whether they went to University / Poly
c) if yes to b) whether it was before/ after fees were introduced
a) Still currently doing a MEng (Undergraduate masters in mechanical engineering) atm I am working for Rolls Royce PLC for a year as a design analysis engineer for Fuel Cells
b) Only the best university for Mechanical engineering (well maybe not quite, but a well respected uni in the industry anyway)
c) Yes, but I am fortunate enough to come from a reasonably affluent family so embarrassingly enough, it's never been to much of a worry for me.
Lboro?
a) Mechatronic Engineer
b) Uni (BEng, Unsubmitted MPhil)
c) Before - by about 2 years.
Doctors/teachers/engineers etc should get free tution. Media staudies/flower arranging/care bears etc should pay through their nose for the privilege of studying alongside future greats.0 -
There was a good article in the Guardian the other week about how it was cheaper to study in Europe. Maastricht Uni charged £1500 per year tuition and living costs were no differen to UK. You can bet some good Euro Unis will be watching this and thinking of moving in on the action. It's prob. no harder to travel to Euro unis in Benelux/France than some UK unis.M.Rushton0
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mrushton wrote:There was a good article in the Guardian the other week about how it was cheaper to study in Europe. Maastricht Uni charged £1500 per year tuition and living costs were no differen to UK. You can bet some good Euro Unis will be watching this and thinking of moving in on the action. It's prob. no harder to travel to Euro unis in Benelux/France than some UK unis.
Interestingly, the daughter of my boss, a Dutch citizen living in Switzerland has just started at Swansea due to costs and choice of available courses.
On another point, why is it parents that have to subsidise their children's education? At one point I had 4 different part time jobs whilst at uni (outdoor sports shop on Saturday, hotel restaurant 2 nights a week and Sunday afternoon/night, Union Bar on Wednesday night and joined the University Air Squadron which also paid 4 weeks 'salary' per year). I could pull in about £150/week and that was in the days before the minimum wage! In the summer I found myself work placements, again getting £200/week. Also at most of the job interviews I went to, it was commented that they were pleased to see that I had work experience and not just the industry related work placements.0 -
schweiz wrote:mrushton wrote:There was a good article in the Guardian the other week about how it was cheaper to study in Europe. Maastricht Uni charged £1500 per year tuition and living costs were no differen to UK. You can bet some good Euro Unis will be watching this and thinking of moving in on the action. It's prob. no harder to travel to Euro unis in Benelux/France than some UK unis.
Interestingly, the daughter of my boss, a Dutch citizen living in Switzerland has just started at Swansea due to costs and choice of available courses.
On another point, why is it parents that have to subsidise their children's education? At one point I had 4 different part time jobs whilst at uni (outdoor sports shop on Saturday, hotel restaurant 2 nights a week and Sunday afternoon/night, Union Bar on Wednesday night and joined the University Air Squadron which also paid 4 weeks 'salary' per year). I could pull in about £150/week and that was in the days before the minimum wage! In the summer I found myself work placements, again getting £200/week. Also at most of the job interviews I went to, it was commented that they were pleased to see that I had work experience and not just the industry related work placements.
You try getting a job or internships or work placements now :shock:
Also,
Oxford and Cambridge for example, will not let you work a job during term time at all. It's an offence which can get you thrown off your course.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:schweiz wrote:mrushton wrote:There was a good article in the Guardian the other week about how it was cheaper to study in Europe. Maastricht Uni charged £1500 per year tuition and living costs were no differen to UK. You can bet some good Euro Unis will be watching this and thinking of moving in on the action. It's prob. no harder to travel to Euro unis in Benelux/France than some UK unis.
Interestingly, the daughter of my boss, a Dutch citizen living in Switzerland has just started at Swansea due to costs and choice of available courses.
On another point, why is it parents that have to subsidise their children's education? At one point I had 4 different part time jobs whilst at uni (outdoor sports shop on Saturday, hotel restaurant 2 nights a week and Sunday afternoon/night, Union Bar on Wednesday night and joined the University Air Squadron which also paid 4 weeks 'salary' per year). I could pull in about £150/week and that was in the days before the minimum wage! In the summer I found myself work placements, again getting £200/week. Also at most of the job interviews I went to, it was commented that they were pleased to see that I had work experience and not just the industry related work placements.
You try getting a job or internships or work placements now :shock:
Also,
Oxford and Cambridge for example, will not let you work a job during term time at all. It's an offence which can get you thrown off your course.
I know for a fact that many students at Oxford have part time jobs. As I said, I was a member of the University Air Squadron. My nearest was Oxford University (I didn't go to the uni though) so I do know many people who went there. Yes it is frowned upon by some of the older tutors but many live in the real world and realise that students don't just live off grants and mummy and daddy anymore.
Yes we are in a recession at the moment and today it may be hard to find a part time job or a placement but should educational policy be decided upon the current economic climate which will no doubt have changed by the time any of it comes into effect?0 -
schweiz wrote:
I know for a fact that many students at Oxford have part time jobs. As I said, I was a member of the University Air Squadron. My nearest was Oxford University (I didn't go to the uni though) so I do know many people who went there. Yes it is frowned upon by some of the older tutors but many live in the real world and realise that students don't just live off grants and mummy and daddy anymore.
Frowned upon? You're not allowed!
Close family member lectures at Cambridge and, much to her chagrin, she's been forced to throw people off for having a job during term time. She tried to just give them a slap on the wrists, but she was told to throw them off.0 -
schweiz wrote:I know for a fact that many students at Oxford have part time jobs. As I said, I was a member of the University Air Squadron. My nearest was Oxford University (I didn't go to the uni though) so I do know many people who went there. Yes it is frowned upon by some of the older tutors but many live in the real world and realise that students don't just live off grants and mummy and daddy anymore.
Yes we are in a recession at the moment and today it may be hard to find a part time job or a placement but should educational policy be decided upon the current economic climate which will no doubt have changed by the time any of it comes into effect?
i think you need to understand that university is very different to what it was, 10 or more years ago.
Part time jobs in and around uni, for those unis that allow it, are fought over, quite agressively, because there are many people who know that is literally the only way they will be able to finish their study. Paying fees upfront, or being given a massive debt upfront (and the interest paid is considerable, especially given current savings interest rates), will and does put many people off. It's just a fact. That's why the gov't is looking into an alternative, since free higher education is clearly not sustainable, and this system has big problems.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:schweiz wrote:
I know for a fact that many students at Oxford have part time jobs. As I said, I was a member of the University Air Squadron. My nearest was Oxford University (I didn't go to the uni though) so I do know many people who went there. Yes it is frowned upon by some of the older tutors but many live in the real world and realise that students don't just live off grants and mummy and daddy anymore.
Frowned upon? You're not allowed!
Close family member lectures at Cambridge and, much to her chagrin, she's been forced to throw people off for having a job during term time. She tried to just give them a slap on the wrists, but she was told to throw them off.
Well I have many friends who are Oxford graduates and they worked through uni. I saw it all the time with freshers saying they couldn't work and some even facing pressure from tutors for joining the University Air Squadron as the tutor felt it wasn't an appropriate use of the students time. As soon as money became an issue, then the students went and found work in bars, shops, restaurants or wherever but I never knew or heard of anyone being thrown out in four years.0 -
The above poster is correct. Students are not supposed to be working and attending Uni as the work gets in the way of study. Both my partner and I work at Unis and that's the rule. But if the student doesn't tell then no-one will askM.Rushton0
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University is now seen as a right, rather than something you earn. Hence the view that everyone has the right to go to university. Many of these people lack the academic skills required to study traditional courses. Universities, under financial and political pressures, have broadened their range of courses to appeal to the interests and abilities of a wider range of school leavers. The upshot of this is a large number of students who graduate with mediocre degrees (2.2 or lower) in subjects which are unlikely to be directly useful in the job market. In part, I feel, this stems from the downgrading of respect for manual "trades"; it's rare for students to actively want to study a skilled trade, partly as they are seen as "unglamorous" professions. In addition there is what I call the "Cracker Effect". When I was teaching in the UK the TV series Cracker was very popular. As a result I lost count of the number of kids who wanted to become criminal psychologists, despite the number of jobs in the UK being extremely limited. This still happens, resulting in courses which are run in subjects where there are very few graduate opportunities (journalism and music spring to mind). Finally, I think that there is a tendency amongst people to focus on the end result, rather than the process. People often know "what they want to be", but forget about what they have to do to get there.
I would like to see universities run heavily subsidised courses in practical subjects such as plumbing, bricklaying etc. At the moment there is a stigma attached to such vital skills; they are viewed as something that thick kids do at the local technical college. The irony is now that plumbers shipped in from overseas can charge a fortune for their services. Who would you rather have fixing your sewage system - a plumber or a sociology graduate?
SteveHead Hands Heart Lungs Legs0 -
There is also a notion from eg the middle classes that children MUST go to Uni. If a Dr's son/daughter said I want to be a car mechanic/squaddie/window cleaner,their parents would be aghast. I remember at my school 30 years ago when a guy said he wanted to be a truck- driver. He was regarded as mad. Hope he did OK and got his own truck firm.M.Rushton0
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The other thing is that many students choose to go to a Uni a long way from home but could probably find the same course close to home that would allow them to continue living at home whilst studying. Of course, it might mean that they miss out on the "experience" of Uni but if their intention is to get qualifications for later life then surely it has to be a better option than additional debt from living expenses? Why should the tax payer be expected to foot the bill so that teenagers can get some freedom from their parents for a few years? Coming from a working class background myself I also don't fully buy the idea that the costs will affect those from poorer backgrounds as their degree will put them in the same position with regards to paying off future debt as their counterparts from middle class backgrounds.0
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mrushton wrote:There is also a notion from eg the middle classes that children MUST go to Uni. If a Dr's son/daughter said I want to be a car mechanic/squaddie/window cleaner,their parents would be aghast. I remember at my school 30 years ago when a guy said he wanted to be a truck- driver. He was regarded as mad. Hope he did OK and got his own truck firm.
I'd be aghast if my son wanted to study some worthless subject for 3 years! If it was a choice between plumbing and journalism I'd steer him toward the former every time!Head Hands Heart Lungs Legs0 -
pottssteve wrote:mrushton wrote:There is also a notion from eg the middle classes that children MUST go to Uni. If a Dr's son/daughter said I want to be a car mechanic/squaddie/window cleaner,their parents would be aghast. I remember at my school 30 years ago when a guy said he wanted to be a truck- driver. He was regarded as mad. Hope he did OK and got his own truck firm.
I'd be aghast if my son wanted to study some worthless subject for 3 years! If it was a choice between plumbing and journalism I'd steer him toward the former every time!
Might make a bloody good journo for all you know.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:pottssteve wrote:mrushton wrote:There is also a notion from eg the middle classes that children MUST go to Uni. If a Dr's son/daughter said I want to be a car mechanic/squaddie/window cleaner,their parents would be aghast. I remember at my school 30 years ago when a guy said he wanted to be a truck- driver. He was regarded as mad. Hope he did OK and got his own truck firm.
I'd be aghast if my son wanted to study some worthless subject for 3 years! If it was a choice between plumbing and journalism I'd steer him toward the former every time!
Might make a bloody good journo for all you know.
He might also make a bloody good plumber! Now, where is the greater demand, at present?
Head Hands Heart Lungs Legs0 -
My point is that just because there's more demand for a plumber, doesn't mean your son is necessarily suited.
I for one, would be monumentally rubbish at dealing with other people's physical sh!t.
Getting regularly screamed at by a short bald man in an office however...0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:My point is that just because there's more demand for a plumber, doesn't mean your son is necessarily suited.
I for one, would be monumentally rubbish at dealing with other people's physical sh!t.
Getting regularly screamed at by a short bald man in an office however...
Rick,
I would agree with you entirely. :shock:
However, my point is that a person should choose something to which they are suited. Many people who study at university are not suited to traditional study at university because they lack the academic ability to succeed on a traditional course. Hence the plethora of less academic options currently available. Hence the large number of graduates with dubious qualifications. These people should do something which suits their skills and abilities; which might mean not attending university.
SteveHead Hands Heart Lungs Legs0 -
pottssteve wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:My point is that just because there's more demand for a plumber, doesn't mean your son is necessarily suited.
I for one, would be monumentally rubbish at dealing with other people's physical sh!t.
Getting regularly screamed at by a short bald man in an office however...
Rick,
I would agree with you entirely. :shock:
However, my point is that a person should choose something to which they are suited. Many people who study at university are not suited to traditional study at university because they lack the academic ability to succeed on a traditional course. Hence the plethora of less academic options currently available. Hence the large number of graduates with dubious qualifications. These people should do something which suits their skills and abilities; which might mean not attending university.
Steve
Fair enough. I get defensive because I only recently graduated, and I have close family involved in university. In the bubble I live in, jobs I've looked for largely all look for very good academic degrees, not vocational (at least, at my age/level). Indeed, I know many people who work in firms where vocational degrees would be a big no no - so it entirely depends on what you are looking for and can realistically achieve.
Students get a bad rep from people who end up on bbc 3 or from people who went years ago or people who never went so I take it upon myself to defend good students! Certainly me and my friends worked hard and came out with good degrees from good universities. The top unis are fiercely fought over since there is such a demand for them, so those who do get in usually make sure they make the most of what is a valuable opportunity.0 -
Rick,
Fair enough. I graduated in 1990 when about 5% of the population went. I don't envy people going today.
SteveHead Hands Heart Lungs Legs0 -
ChrisSA wrote:Jez mon wrote:spen666 wrote:It would have been interesting to know:
a) what job each poster here does
b) whether they went to University / Poly
c) if yes to b) whether it was before/ after fees were introduced
a) Still currently doing a MEng (Undergraduate masters in mechanical engineering) atm I am working for Rolls Royce PLC for a year as a design analysis engineer for Fuel Cells
b) Only the best university for Mechanical engineering (well maybe not quite, but a well respected uni in the industry anyway)
c) Yes, but I am fortunate enough to come from a reasonably affluent family so embarrassingly enough, it's never been to much of a worry for me.
Lboro?
a) Mechatronic Engineer
b) Uni (BEng, Unsubmitted MPhil)
c) Before - by about 2 years.
Doctors/teachers/engineers etc should get free tution. Media staudies/flower arranging/care bears etc should pay through their nose for the privilege of studying alongside future greats.
Yep loughborough
Can't say I argue personally...BUT:
Those doing flower arranging etc, are already paying over the odds for what they get...
My course, at least 3 hours of lectures everyday, plus tutorials and labs on top of that. Not only that, but most of my lecturers are leaders in their various fields, one once told us that he charged £1000 a day consultancy fee. Then there are the various pieces of equipment in the labs (a few thousand quid for the kettle in the thermodynamics department anyone?) Finally, the various CAE software packages are hugely expensive...
Compare that with those at my uni doing criminology..3 hours of lectures a week and access to a few books.
At then end of the day, tuition fees do offer value for money when it comes to my degree.You live and learn. At any rate, you live0 -
So to summarise this thread.
Yes, it is good value, providing you do a degree that adds some value to the knowledge pool and make yourself more employable. No it's probably not if you choose some rediculous degree in Celebrity Journalism, Football Culture, Advanced Texting or Binge Drinking (OK I made those 2 up) or something similar.0 -
Pross wrote:Why should the tax payer be expected to foot the bill so that teenagers can get some freedom from their parents for a few years?
I would guess that a lot of the tax raised in the UK comes from these same parents?
Studied: Statistics
Last unviersity: Lancaster (UK)
Funding: grants/ part time work and Career Development Loan
Worth it? Yes, can't really get a stats job in industry without an MSc.0 -
Redjeep! wrote:So to summarise this thread.
Yes, it is good value, providing you do a degree that adds some value to the knowledge pool and make yourself more employable. No it's probably not if you choose some rediculous degree in Celebrity Journalism, Football Culture, Advanced Texting or Binge Drinking (OK I made those 2 up) or something similar.
However, celeb.journalism sells a lot of copy if you look at the news-stands so if you can make £100k a year doing that then it's a job and you are keeping the masses entertained giving them what they want.M.Rushton0 -
mrushton wrote:Redjeep! wrote:So to summarise this thread.
Yes, it is good value, providing you do a degree that adds some value to the knowledge pool and make yourself more employable. No it's probably not if you choose some rediculous degree in Celebrity Journalism, Football Culture, Advanced Texting or Binge Drinking (OK I made those 2 up) or something similar.
However, celeb.journalism sells a lot of copy if you look at the news-stands so if you can make £100k a year doing that then it's a job and you are keeping the masses entertained giving them what they want.
That's true, and whilst the number of "Hello" and "OK" magazines seems to be growing exponentially each year, how many journalists do they really need and is it vital that they have studied Celebrity Journalism and not just journalism ?0 -
People who do not go to uni should not be forced (through taxation) to pay for those who do. Certainly they shouldn't have to subsidise people who are doing degrees that are not in high demand by industry.
The person who gets the most benefit from the degree/education/life skills is the person who took the degree, ergo they should pay for it.
Not paying up front is a good Idea, and the lifetime earnings potential a good degree gives you is in the region of £200,000 so to be honest if you don't think it is worth it then don't go to uni - it is not essential and you can go later if you need to.0 -
LJAR wrote:People who do not go to uni should not be forced (through taxation) to pay for those who do. Certainly they shouldn't have to subsidise people who are doing degrees that are not in high demand by industry.
The person who gets the most benefit from the degree/education/life skills is the person who took the degree, ergo they should pay for it.
Not paying up front is a good Idea, and the lifetime earnings potential a good degree gives you is in the region of £200,000 so to be honest if you don't think it is worth it then don't go to uni - it is not essential and you can go later if you need to.
At a time when our economy is heavily based on skills and knowledge, I would say that the whole of society benefits from university education.
Our medicine industry, for example, is worth £10s of billions a year, so the income that graduates generate will be taxed, and then they will often pay higher levels of income tax. Asking them to pay tuition fees is like asking them to pay twice for something that benefits everyone.0
