is a University Education good value for money ?
Comments
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schweiz, If you want to be a Doctor/Lawyer/Engineer/Vet/etc. then you should still be choosing yoru course based on what you enjoy, and hopefully you'll find that actually you enjoy the things that are parts of your chosen career path. Most of the people on those courses do actually enjoy the subject rather than the prospect of the job and they're very fortunate in that their favourite thing has a sensible profession.
You see very few people who want to do those things actually taking the degree despite hating the subject.
As for my job prospects, i'm perfectly happy with the jobs i've got lined up for when i finish my PhD, and the fact that I'll enjoy them. Not to mention that with the exception of specialist jobs very few graduates work in a field directly applied to their degree, most employers are looking for someone who is hard-working and intelligent enough for the required job. It's why graduate recruitment is push so hard in universities etc.0 -
Tom Butcher wrote:schweiz wrote:F
However as johnfinch found out a degree in Politics doesn't get you far unless it's from Oxford where a degree in PPE will get you into the Houses of Parliament. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11136511
IMO there are far too many people going to University on the back of poor A-Level results studying degrees that have little worth in the employment market. There are, I believe a number of reasons for this. The first is that it was a great ploy by succesive governments to reduce unemployment figures. Students are not unemployed, so get a few hundred thousand into university and hey...unemployment was reduced by the governement.
The second is that there seems to be some kind of view that people ‘need’ to have a degree or else they will never go anywhere in life, which is of course complete BS, but this fuels the demand for even more university places.
The final point is that the universities are, at the end of the day, businesses. They have a small research department specialising in something like Anglo-Italian relations, they need funding and can’t get it off the EU or any other grant giving body so they start a course in Italian Studies. The thing is that your average or above average A-Level student realises that this won’t get them much in the way of future opportunities, so the university offers course entry requirements of 2 E’s and gets a class full of studenty paying £3000 a year which pays the lecturers salaries so they can continue with their research. The university doesn’t really care what the graduate does for a job, as long as they find a job and can show in their stats that 90% of graduates are employed. Maybe employed for the minimum wage, but still employed!
The only thing I'd disagree with is implication that non-vocational require lower A level results. Obviously some do - but many require very high A level results - as with more vocational or science subjects some courses are in demand and some are not.
Sorry, that wasn’t supposed to be implied, there are indeed many vocational courses that have questionable employment prospects just as there are some semi/non-vocational subjects that are in hign demand in certain areas.
My point is that I don’t see how someone who has and E, N, U at A-Level and a 2:2 in ‘Business’ from the University of ‘Insert Metropolitan Town’ is any more employable for a ‘Insert High Street Shop’ Fast Track Retail Management Scheme than a bright and enthusiatic candidate with a load of good GCSE’s who has several years experience in that retail sector.0 -
schweiz wrote:
My point is that I don’t see how someone who has and E, N, U at A-Level and a 2:2 in ‘Business’ from the University of ‘Insert Metropolitan Town’ is any more employable for a ‘Insert High Street Shop’ Fast Track Retail Management Scheme than a bright and enthusiatic candidate with a load of good GCSE’s who has several years experience in that retail sector.
If you want to get onto a proper fast track anywhere, you will need a good degree from a good university.0 -
ride_whenever wrote:schweiz, If you want to be a Doctor/Lawyer/Engineer/Vet/etc. then you should still be choosing yoru course based on what you enjoy, and hopefully you'll find that actually you enjoy the things that are parts of your chosen career path. Most of the people on those courses do actually enjoy the subject rather than the prospect of the job and they're very fortunate in that their favourite thing has a sensible profession.
You see very few people who want to do those things actually taking the degree despite hating the subject.
As for my job prospects, i'm perfectly happy with the jobs i've got lined up for when i finish my PhD, and the fact that I'll enjoy them. Not to mention that with the exception of specialist jobs very few graduates work in a field directly applied to their degree, most employers are looking for someone who is hard-working and intelligent enough for the required job. It's why graduate recruitment is push so hard in universities etc.
I'm not doubting that with a PhD that you can get a good job, I was just questioning that fact that you could do a job doing just about anything, which just isn't true.0 -
johnfinch wrote:The courses which are rigourous and challenging, and/or provide students with some useful skills.
For example, a Media Studies course. Easily knocked, but if they covered the technical side of the industry - how to do lighting, operate camera and sound equipment, use common publishing software etc - then students would come out with some skills which would stand them in good stead in the future.
Skill's yes, opportunities to apply them? No.0 -
Fair enough, but I'd like to think that my options are slightly wider than industry or academia.
Although feel free to break in and bust up my idyllic utopia!0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:schweiz wrote:
My point is that I don’t see how someone who has and E, N, U at A-Level and a 2:2 in ‘Business’ from the University of ‘Insert Metropolitan Town’ is any more employable for a ‘Insert High Street Shop’ Fast Track Retail Management Scheme than a bright and enthusiatic candidate with a load of good GCSE’s who has several years experience in that retail sector.
If you want to get onto a proper fast track anywhere, you will need a good degree from a good university.
I know you do, and that's my point. There's no point in spending £18k on a $hit degree from a $hit university. You might as well leave school at 16 and work your way up from the bottom because with a $hit degree from a $hit universtity that's where you're going to start but with a load of debt that the 16 year old doesn't have.0 -
schweiz wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:schweiz wrote:
My point is that I don’t see how someone who has and E, N, U at A-Level and a 2:2 in ‘Business’ from the University of ‘Insert Metropolitan Town’ is any more employable for a ‘Insert High Street Shop’ Fast Track Retail Management Scheme than a bright and enthusiatic candidate with a load of good GCSE’s who has several years experience in that retail sector.
If you want to get onto a proper fast track anywhere, you will need a good degree from a good university.
I know you do, and that's my point. There's no point in spending £18k on a $hit degree from a $hit university. You might as well leave school at 16 and work your way up from the bottom because with a $hit degree from a $hit universtity that's where you're going to start but with a load of debt that the 16 year old doesn't have.
Willhub will get really offended when he sees this.0 -
The issue is this:
Europeans have figured they can't compete with the rest of the world on price, so they need to compete elsewhere.
They compete on what is Europe's biggest asset - education. People in Europe are more literate, better educated, add more value etc.
So it makes sense to to and get more people trained to a high skill level.
It makes sense to do higher education if it is something that adds value. I would suggest that quite a few of the poorly regarded universities have very good courses that add a lot of value - but people are busy looking at their academic courses, which are obviously going to be a poor choice.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:schweiz wrote:
My point is that I don’t see how someone who has and E, N, U at A-Level and a 2:2 in ‘Business’ from the University of ‘Insert Metropolitan Town’ is any more employable for a ‘Insert High Street Shop’ Fast Track Retail Management Scheme than a bright and enthusiatic candidate with a load of good GCSE’s who has several years experience in that retail sector.
If you want to get onto a proper fast track anywhere, you will need a good degree from a good university.
But why? I fail to see why a non-relevant degree is so often considered as any kind of pointer as to an employees potential e.g. why would a first class honours degree in Fine Art from Oxford mean you are a better candidate for past track promotion in the police than if you'd left school at 16 and undertaken an apprenticeship for a few years before changing careers? I think that is the mentality we need to get away from. I had dealings with local authority who had recruited a graduate (non-related degree) to work in their highway department checking drawings. After complaints from colleagues that the person was failing to perform their job and didn't understand the work they were told "well, they must be good at something"! As soon as people are recruited because they have any degree from the right establishment then we will have problems. This may not be the case in all sectors but it certainly is in many.0 -
The thing that strikes you about this topic is the level of agreement that there are too many people doing non vocational degrees for which they have neither the aptitude nor the interest.
These courses are all state subsidised (at a guess?) yet there doesn't seem any political will to tackle it. For me it'd be a win win - the state would save money, we'd have a workforce better equipped with the skills we need and the students themselves would do better if the system gave them a nudge towards training more suited to their futures. A lot of the funded research could be chopped too.
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
redddraggon wrote:schweiz wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:schweiz wrote:
My point is that I don’t see how someone who has and E, N, U at A-Level and a 2:2 in ‘Business’ from the University of ‘Insert Metropolitan Town’ is any more employable for a ‘Insert High Street Shop’ Fast Track Retail Management Scheme than a bright and enthusiatic candidate with a load of good GCSE’s who has several years experience in that retail sector.
If you want to get onto a proper fast track anywhere, you will need a good degree from a good university.
I know you do, and that's my point. There's no point in spending £18k on a $hit degree from a $hit university. You might as well leave school at 16 and work your way up from the bottom because with a $hit degree from a $hit universtity that's where you're going to start but with a load of debt that the 16 year old doesn't have.
Willhub will get really offended when he sees this.
LOL
But after years of c0cking about, Will’s actually got himself on a degree course at a well regarded university and it is the type of degree that does have ‘transferrable’ skills rather than being purely academic or purely vocational.0 -
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pitchshifter wrote:johnfinch wrote:The courses which are rigourous and challenging, and/or provide students with some useful skills.
For example, a Media Studies course. Easily knocked, but if they covered the technical side of the industry - how to do lighting, operate camera and sound equipment, use common publishing software etc - then students would come out with some skills which would stand them in good stead in the future.
Skill's yes, opportunities to apply them? No.
Talking of supply and demand why not divert all the media studies students into medicine. At least there a massive over supply would save us money by brining doctors salaries down to a more reasonable level. When that's done move on to dentists.
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
redddraggon wrote:schweiz wrote:well regarded university
huh?
He's at Salford Uni. It has a good reputation and high entry requirements (well it did when I was a lad)0 -
Tom Butcher wrote:Talking of supply and demand why not divert all the media studies students into medicine. At least there a massive over supply would save us money by brining doctors salaries down to a more reasonable level. When that's done move on to dentists.
Nah, just put people on a cheap flight to Central Europe to get their teeth pulled out.
There's a town in Hungary called Mosonmagyarovar which serves as a gigantic dentistry town for Austrians going over the border to get cheap, high quality dental work.
With Bratislava airport just down the road we could fly a couple of 747 loads of people over there every day to get it done.
Short-termism - it's the British way.0 -
schweiz wrote:johnfinch wrote:For example, a Media Studies course. Easily knocked, but if they covered the technical side of the industry - how to do lighting, operate camera and sound equipment, use common publishing software etc - then students would come out with some skills which would stand them in good stead in the future.
But does that require a 3 year degree course?
No it doesn't. It could be done as an apprenticeship. IF somebody offers you one.0 -
I graduated with a 2:1 in Music :oops: 4 years back-currently studying a Birmingham for a masters in Musicology.....got about 10k of debt from my undergraduate degree...
The level of tuition fees, living cost etc nowadays is scary.....for the 'average student' I think it is probably worth thinking very hard now about just how much debt you will be in before going ahead with a degree......
That said, for me studying a subject that I love is easily the most enjoyable part of life and I dont regret any of the debt I'm left with as a result
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Tom Butcher wrote:pitchshifter wrote:johnfinch wrote:The courses which are rigourous and challenging, and/or provide students with some useful skills.
For example, a Media Studies course. Easily knocked, but if they covered the technical side of the industry - how to do lighting, operate camera and sound equipment, use common publishing software etc - then students would come out with some skills which would stand them in good stead in the future.
Skill's yes, opportunities to apply them? No.
Talking of supply and demand why not divert all the media studies students into medicine. At least there a massive over supply would save us money by brining doctors salaries down to a more reasonable level. When that's done move on to dentists.
With those not cutting it making a Doctors surgery reality show on ITV3?0 -
It would have been interesting to know:
a) what job each poster here does
b) whether they went to University / Poly
c) if yes to b) whether it was before/ after fees were introducedWant to know the Spen666 behind the posts?
Then read MY BLOG @ http://www.pebennett.com
Twittering @spen_6660 -
schweiz wrote:redddraggon wrote:schweiz wrote:well regarded university
huh?
He's at Salford Uni. It has a good reputation and high entry requirements (well it did when I was a lad)
Times have changed and they'll take anyone - even Will! There are some good courses but there is some cr*p as wellM.Rushton0 -
a) self employed IT guy
b) yes - but no relevance to what i do now at all
c) before.... a lot before :oops:0 -
Can I suggest that you don't pay it off just yet, and buy a couple of really nice bikesredddraggon wrote:I did a 4yr course, and my debt is £14,000.
I could probably pay it off in the next two years TBH, the amount I am saving each month would easily cover it. Science adjusts it’s beliefs based on what’s observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved0 -
northernneil wrote:a) self employed IT guy
b) yes - but no relevance to what i do now at all
c) before.... a lot before :oops:
So you're a grumpy OLD codger then
SnapWant to know the Spen666 behind the posts?
Then read MY BLOG @ http://www.pebennett.com
Twittering @spen_6660 -
a) Civil Engineer (highways)
b) Part time (HNC Newport College of Higher Education (now part of Uni of Wales), BEng Uni of Glamorgan (former Poly), MSc from NTU (also former Poly I think?) so not exactly Ivy League stuff
c) Before but as part-time courses so fees paid by employer for HNC and MSc, BEng self funded0 -
johnfinch wrote:schweiz wrote:johnfinch wrote:For example, a Media Studies course. Easily knocked, but if they covered the technical side of the industry - how to do lighting, operate camera and sound equipment, use common publishing software etc - then students would come out with some skills which would stand them in good stead in the future.
But does that require a 3 year degree course?
No it doesn't. It could be done as an apprenticeship. IF somebody offers you one.
or could it be done in a more intensive 12 month course?
Not that anyone will do that because you won't get a degree. Just as qualified but no degree. The degree is everything :roll:0 -
Re the above comments about Doctor/dentists. it doesn't work like that. There are only x amount of places available for medicine. These are generally oversubscribed and are expensive to run. The Uni's that have these courses are generally prestigious/high regard. If there were to be double the number of places, the older Unis would lose the quality of students and the tutors/Consultants would have to come from somewhere eg hospitals. It's a vicious circle that the Med.schools don't have any interest in ending. There are also a lack of jobs for med students so they end up going abroad.M.Rushton0
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spen666 wrote:northernneil wrote:a) self employed IT guy
b) yes - but no relevance to what i do now at all
c) before.... a lot before :oops:
So you're a grumpy OLD codger then
Snap
I am several years younger than Malcolm Elliott ....gawd bless him for giving us all hope0 -
a) Compliance Verification Engineer for Software, Complex Electronic Hardware and Environmental Qualification of Aircraft and Aircraft Equipment
b) BEng Software Engineering, Royal Military College of Science (Cranfield University). Doing a sponsored part time MSc in Systems Engineering for Defence at the same place although it's now called Defence Academy of the United Kingdom, Cranfield Defence and Security!!
c) Just before. Just about qualified for the last of the LEA grants (about £700 a year) but I enjoyed my second year that much that I did it again :oops: ....and for that privilege, I paid £1000 tuition fees as my LEA wouldn't cover them. 0
