is a University Education good value for money ?

northernneil

are we reaching a tipping point for further education if even more charges or a 'graduate' tax is applied to University Students, average student debt after leaving uni is at just under £18,000 as it is

:shock:

father_jack

They'll pay it back once they're lucky enough for find a job working at Morrisons. lol

rick_chasey

It's certianly more than £18,000.

Maintenance loans are at least £3,000 ish a year, and the tution fee is £3,000 ish a year too.

That's around £18,000 for a 3 year course, but there are plenty of 4 year courses, where it jumps up to £24,000 owed to the Student Loans Company.

Also, after food and accomodation there's not much change left of that maintenance loan, so you end up borrowing even more to cover it, especially if you study in London. Plus, interest is charged on it.

http://www.freedebtadvice-uk.com/2010/0 ... loan-debt/

The figure quoted there, £23,000 sounds more like it.

finchy

Depends what you're studying, where you're studying and how much you put into the subject.

Following link shows some info about graduate prospects - table 7 shows income for different subjects.

http://ww2.prospects.ac.uk/cms/ShowPage ... _/p!eXdaLa

Regarding a degree's worth in non-monetary terms - I graduated with a degree in Politics from a good university 7 years ago. When I had a look around at the jobs market after graduating, I saw that I wasn't really qualified for much apart from desk jobs, which I quickly discovered I don't enjoy and never made me feel like I'm contributing as much as I could to society.. So for me, it wasn't really worth 3 years of my life and working like mad during the holidays to avoid debt.

I'm now at Open University, and hope that by 2013 I'll have a BEng, which will qualify me to do something I feel is useful, so in that respect it will definitely be worth it from the income point of view and job satisfaction.

Right, now that's tuppence worth, off to study and then do some job applications. Good day everyone.

daviesee

Not sure if this is still relevant, if it ever was but it may be close.

A study on return on investment in going to university in Canada circa 1990 concluded that you wouldn't break even until your mid '40s.

Assumptions made:-
1. The system there then was similar to here now.
2. If you don't go to university you are in full time employment but earning no more than average wage.
3. Once graduated you get full time employment at above average wage.

Assumptions 2 & 3 may not be met :evil: so the whole thing is redundant but you get the idea.

pitchshifter

Graduated 2 years ago before the hike in tuition fees. 2:1 with experience in my sector. Lucky enough to get a job that involves what I want to be doing.

What I pay back a month on my loan doesn't even cover the interest on the £12,000, so people coming out with 18-24k worth of debt will never pay it back..

I fear for those doing media or fashion....

In 2-3 years uni's will start to close..

rick_chasey

There is more to university than just helping you earn more in the future.

pitchshifter

Rick Chasey wrote:

There is more to university than just helping you earn more in the future.

Please elaborate?

I had a great time and made some good friends. However my sole purpose for going to university was to get an education of which would lead to getting a job where I can earn a comfortable living.

This has yet to be the case as I am still at college doing further profesional qualifications, which luckily are supported by my employer..

rhext

It's got to depend on what you do with it. I would say it's great value for people like Doctors/Lawyers/Dentists/Vets etc. It's also a basic entry criterion for many better paid jobs.

The thing I'm starting to worry about though is how the younger generation will react to these sort of costs. We seem to be in a position where the balance of economic power is firmly in the lap of the older generation: 40-somethings to pensioners. When I was in my 20s University education was to all intents and purposes free. Entry level housing was expensive, but at least you weren't already saddled with debt of 2-3 times your starting salary. The generation then in power still owned most of everything but they did offer a helping hand to start you off!

So now my generation is 'in power' we own most of the property, but we say to the younger generation 'you're on your own' as far as education costs are concerned. I get to keep more of my salary: great. But I can't help wondering how my kid's generation may repay us when they're 40-somethings and we're rapidly heading into old age and infirmity!

Pross

Strange, 2 of my sisters have recently completed Uni courses and have come out with nowhere near £18k of debt. Neither worked while in Uni but did during their holidays. My parents weren't in a position to help them out financially. In the second sisters case she did go to a Welsh Uni so no tuition fees but the other sister had the full works to pay. She achieved this by living within her means and going out rarely.

There are too many people staying in full time education just because they don't know what to do with themselves. It used to be the exception for someone to have a University education but these days everything is available as degree course and I've heard many people both in real life and on TV / radio saying how they went to Uni because they didn't know what they wanted to do. Most students also opt for a University far from home and whilst I understand the desire to be independent for the first time, if money is a real issue for them then there will generally be a University nearby that would allow them to stay at home.

Granted, in the current economic situation there aren't many jobs out there especially with training but when there were people were still opting for Uni rather than possibly considering getting a job with vocational training which may have been of more value to them long term and wouldn't have left them with student debt.

Hopefully this will mean that those choosing to go to University are doing so to get the qualifications they require to do the job they want rather than to buy themselves a few more years before joining the 'real world'. Ultimately, if students aren't prepared to accept the costs of their own studies who should pay for them? Is it really fair to ask the tax payer to fund (for example) my sister's drama degree? Maybe we need to have a list of degrees where the tax payer provides more backing as the student will provide a greater social benefit such as teaching or medicine?

rick_chasey

pitchshifter wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

There is more to university than just helping you earn more in the future.

Please elaborate?

I had a great time and made some good friends. However my sole purpose for going to university was to get an education of which would lead to getting a job where I can earn a comfortable living.

This has yet to be the case as I am still at college doing further profesional qualifications, which luckily are supported by my employer..

Some people are just very academic, and university provides a platform for them to reach the cutting edge of research in their field.

I think also, on a very personal level, it can prove quite enlightening just in life generally. There's something to be said to study for study's sake. University can be quite indulgent, deciding the area and speciality you want rather than what you're told. Given that you spend the rest of your life not working like that, it's an experience that is worth having.

It's also good to see how deep you can go into a very specific subject. Most people who go to uni are smart and think they know quite a bit, but your study can show you just how much there is, and how little you know.

redddraggon

I did a 4yr course, and my debt is £14,000.

I could probably pay it off in the next two years TBH, the amount I am saving each month would easily cover it.

Pross

Rick Chasey wrote:

pitchshifter wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

There is more to university than just helping you earn more in the future.

Please elaborate?

I had a great time and made some good friends. However my sole purpose for going to university was to get an education of which would lead to getting a job where I can earn a comfortable living.

This has yet to be the case as I am still at college doing further profesional qualifications, which luckily are supported by my employer..

Some people are just very academic, and university provides a platform for them to reach the cutting edge of research in their field.

I think also, on a very personal level, it can prove quite enlightening just in life generally. There's something to be said to study for study's sake. University can be quite indulgent, deciding the area and speciality you want rather than what you're told. Given that you spend the rest of your life not working like that, it's an experience that is worth having.

It's also good to see how deep you can go into a very specific subject. Most people who go to uni are smart and think they know quite a bit, but your study can show you just how much there is, and how little you know.

That's all fair enough but who do you think should cover the cost of someone's enlightening journey through University life other than the student?

northernneil

I dont think we can look back at what we did/spent/had/came out with at university as the point I am making is that it is already expensive and about to get a whole lot more expensive, if they are about to charge 'market rates' to students on thier loans then coming out with £14,000 debt suddenly is a totally different kettle of fish to a traditional student debt of years ago where interest payments were almost negligible.

Pross

True, but I think the point is that University education isn't a necessity in a lot of cases so why shouldn't someone who chooses that path have to pay their way?

Ollieda

Rick Chasey wrote:

That's around £18,000 for a 3 year course, but there are plenty of 4 year courses, where it jumps up to £24,000 owed to the Student Loans Company.

For most on a 4 year course the fees for their placement year are reduced as they are not actually at uni.Amount of reduction differes from uni to uni but most are a 50% reduction - still a bit excessive considering all that is really needed is a small amount of paperwork from the uni and a visit from a lecturer - but of course the uni will have many other things to use that money for!

As mentioned by others, its about what you study at uni and how well you do. I'm doing law so if I chose to go into law as a profession (as a national average only 40% of those studying law end up becoming lawyers / barristers) then my degree would have been good value for money as it would (hopefully) open up a large opportunity of jobs for me. However my girlfriend studying events management is going into an industry that is based mainly on job experience so a degree alone is not going to give as much initial benefit as having had 3 or 4 sucssesful years in industry, however having the degree does show a higher level of learning and some employers will look for that above non-degree applicants.

Doing a few sums it looks like, with average debts of say £18,000 you need to be earning over £23,808 a year in order to be paying off more than your monthly interest!
Based on the interest of this academic year @ 4.4% - interest on £18,000 = £792 (or £66 per month). As you pay 9% of your income above £15,000 (£1,250 per month) if you were earning £23,808 (£1984 per month) you would have a deductable income of £8,808 (£734 per month) which at 9% would be £792.72 (£66.06 per month).

So one way to judge if it's worth it is to simply look at the figures and judge the prospects of if the job potential is likely to get you earning over £23,808 (and hopefully more) or have you below that where upon you loan is just getting bigger and bigger.

Feel free to correct my figures if I've made a mistake there

Tom Butcher

The cost of some degrees would be horrendous if you had to pay full whack. In a way I think students should have to pay because it'll stop the people who do a degree just because they don't know what else to do - they often have no academic ability, no real interest in the subject matter and in many cases aren't doing themselves any favours in terms of future employability either.

On the other hand it does mean that university education - particularly the more expensive courses and the better universities - starts to become even more the preserve of the wealthy. The lack of social mobility should be one of the main issues in this country and I'd be against just raising tuition fees without other reforms to make sure people with the ability for and interest in education can access it irrespective of their background.

Off the top of my head why not make the minimum age to enter university 21 - or maybe make 10% of places available for younger candidates so exceptional talent can continue their education. Stop people going to university because it's there - make them work for a few years so they have some idea what they want to do and if they really want or need a university education. If they decide they do then hopefully they'll appreciate it as a choice they have made rather than seeing it as an extension of school only one where nobody minds if they play truant (I know engineering and science students will tell me this isn't the case in their courses anyway). If you do a degree you should be there to study - not to take three years off having to work.

I don't think university should be all about getting a job after though - there is a place for knowledge for knowledges sake - but when you lecture theatres are half empty because students have no real interest and they can't even structure a sentence let alone a 3000 word essay it's time to say to some of them you've got no business being on a degree course especially one subsidised by the state.

rick_chasey

Pross wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

pitchshifter wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

There is more to university than just helping you earn more in the future.

Please elaborate?

I had a great time and made some good friends. However my sole purpose for going to university was to get an education of which would lead to getting a job where I can earn a comfortable living.

This has yet to be the case as I am still at college doing further profesional qualifications, which luckily are supported by my employer..

Some people are just very academic, and university provides a platform for them to reach the cutting edge of research in their field.

I think also, on a very personal level, it can prove quite enlightening just in life generally. There's something to be said to study for study's sake. University can be quite indulgent, deciding the area and speciality you want rather than what you're told. Given that you spend the rest of your life not working like that, it's an experience that is worth having.

It's also good to see how deep you can go into a very specific subject. Most people who go to uni are smart and think they know quite a bit, but your study can show you just how much there is, and how little you know.

That's all fair enough but who do you think should cover the cost of someone's enlightening journey through University life other than the student?

I don't know to be honest. A western country without a well funded, equal opportunity higher education system, will do very badly. You need top quality research, and in order to have that ,you need to get the undergrads in. Sure the value isn't always tangible, and there are people who cruise through and contribute little post - sponging here and there, but you get that everywhere.

Making the grads pay for it, it one way or another, will cost those who either study courses that don't lead to being well paid, or those who can't afford to go in the first place. There's more to life than making cash and contributing to the economy. You need smart educated people in all walks of life, and society benefits as a result.

northernneil

Yes if you want to go to Uni it is your choice and it is upto you to pay for it. However I worry that there is a tipping point we are reaching where unless you are from a wealthy background or going into a degree for which you know you are likely to be remunerated highly - doctors, dentists, laywers, then simply it is not a choice you can make as it will put you on the backfoot financially potentially for the rest of your life.

schweiz

For me, University was definitely worth it…and I really didn’t want to go!

However, I graduated in 2000 with about £7000 of debt. This was before the time of tuition fees. £1000 of that was a bank overdraft which I paid off with my 'Graduate Golden Hello' from my new employer.

Paying back the rest took 7 years but now I earn quite a bit more than an 'average' salary (for the UK or Switzerland) and it is highly unlikely that I would have achieved that without the degree, well not in my current area of work.

But as rhext says, I think it depends on the degree. A degree that allows you to do a specific professional job (Medicine, Engineering, Law) will be worth it time and time again.

However as johnfinch found out a degree in Politics doesn't get you far unless it's from Oxford where a degree in PPE will get you into the Houses of Parliament. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11136511

IMO there are far too many people going to University on the back of poor A-Level results studying degrees that have little worth in the employment market. There are, I believe a number of reasons for this. The first is that it was a great ploy by succesive governments to reduce unemployment figures. Students are not unemployed, so get a few hundred thousand into university and hey...unemployment was reduced by the governement.

The second is that there seems to be some kind of view that people ‘need’ to have a degree or else they will never go anywhere in life, which is of course complete BS, but this fuels the demand for even more university places.

The final point is that the universities are, at the end of the day, businesses. They have a small research department specialising in something like Anglo-Italian relations, they need funding and can’t get it off the EU or any other grant giving body so they start a course in Italian Studies. The thing is that your average or above average A-Level student realises that this won’t get them much in the way of future opportunities, so the university offers course entry requirements of 2 E’s and gets a class full of studenty paying £3000 a year which pays the lecturers salaries so they can continue with their research. The university doesn’t really care what the graduate does for a job, as long as they find a job and can show in their stats that 90% of graduates are employed. Maybe employed for the minimum wage, but still employed!

pitchshifter

northernneil wrote:

Yes if you want to go to Uni it is your choice and it is upto you to pay for it. However I worry that there is a tipping point we are reaching where unless you are from a wealthy background or going into a degree for which you know you are likely to be remunerated highly - doctors, dentists, laywers, then simply it is not a choice you can make as it will put you on the backfoot financially potentially for the rest of your life.

With the lack of "graduate level" jobs and the poor return on investment for many, the penny will drop and school leavers will think twice before applying to uni.

pitchshifter

schweiz wrote:

IMO there are far too many people going to University on the back of poor A-Level results studying degrees that have little worth in the employment market. There are, I believe a number of reasons for this. The first is that it was a great ploy by succesive governments to reduce unemployment figures. Students are not unemployed, so get a few hundred thousand into university and hey...unemployment was reduced by the governement.

+1

finchy

schweiz wrote:

the university offers course entry requirements of 2 E’s and gets a class full of studenty paying £3000 a year which pays the lecturers salaries so they can continue with their research. The university doesn’t really care what the graduate does for a job, as long as they find a job and can show in their stats that 90% of graduates are employed. Maybe employed for the minimum wage, but still employed!

You raise an important point there. If universities are allowed to set their own fees, then they could use this to pay large salaries to "star" names who get lots of research published, books sold and citations. From my social sciences background, I can tell you that there are some unbelievably bad theorists working in the field who make big, controversial claims rather than ones which are true. I'd resent having to pay heaps of money just so that my university could employ the likes of Fukuyama or Huntington.

Also, even if the universities do manage to get in great academics, a top researcher is not necessarily a top teacher, so students might end up paying high fees for a substandard education.

finchy

Jake151 wrote:

There are too many of these courses that mean nothing, if they got rid of them then there will be more places on courses that matter, but then again what courses DO matter? I bet you would name courses that you think are more beneficial than what I would because I think there needs to be more research in IT but some people would say English, others maths ect ect.

The courses which are rigourous and challenging, and/or provide students with some useful skills.

For example, a Media Studies course. Easily knocked, but if they covered the technical side of the industry - how to do lighting, operate camera and sound equipment, use common publishing software etc - then students would come out with some skills which would stand them in good stead in the future.

bartimaeus

The government's justification for expanding university education from around 5% to 35% or more was that this expansion was an investment in the country's future.

If it is an 'investment' then the government - and here I also mean society in general - should expect to recoup the costs through the higher taxes paid by those graduates who will earn more.

Making individuals pay significant sums for their university education is, in my view, a big mistake, as it will be a serious disincentive to poorer applicants and to those whose families are not used to factoring 20-30 year investments.

No matter what the intention here, the effect is likely to be that a university educations will become even more of a middle-class investment, with only a token gesture to inclusiveness from expanded bursaries.

I would not like the UK to develop a hereditary 'unversity educated class'... that would be an almost medieval outcome.

schweiz

johnfinch wrote:

For example, a Media Studies course. Easily knocked, but if they covered the technical side of the industry - how to do lighting, operate camera and sound equipment, use common publishing software etc - then students would come out with some skills which would stand them in good stead in the future.

But does that require a 3 year degree course?

A friend did Geography at Reading and once he was bemoaning the fact that he had 6 hours of lectures...in a week!

Try 6 hours a day on an Engineering degree plus lab work in your own time!!

ride_whenever

For the bulk of people i don't think a university education is 'worth' it

It does however offer the freedom for people to study things they're genuinely interested in without the pressures of the tedium of the job world. That is what university is for, to allow you to expand your knowledge about things you're passionate in. It isn't a glorified crèche for people who cannot be arsed to work and don't know what they want to do. Equally you shouldn't be choosing your uni course based on getting a job later.

I'm currently a graduate student doing my doctorate, I chose my undergrad degree because it is what I loved, and I had a great time doing the actual study, I also received a wide education in a range of non-academic areas. I've realised now that research isn't really for me, I don't enjoy what i'm doing (i've enjoyed other areas of research but my current work is just dull and un-challenging) but whilst doing it i've been able to find something that I'm very good at and enjoy immensely and I'm using my time to get qualifications to pursue that as a career.

The big thing I've seen from my (admittedly narrow) experience is that a good degree gives you a wide array of transferable skills and as far as i'm concerned I could get a job doing just about anything.

schweiz

ride_whenever wrote:

Equally you shouldn't be choosing your uni course based on getting a job later.

If you want to be a Doctor/Lawyer/Engineer/Vet/etc. I'd say that choosing your degree based on what you want to do is exactly what you should be doing!

I take it from your last post that you are still in full time education and have not yet started to look for a full time job that pays a graduate salary

ride_whenever wrote:

The big thing I've seen from my (admittedly narrow) experience is that a good degree gives you a wide array of transferable skills and as far as i'm concerned I could get a job doing just about anything.

You may think you can get a job doing anything, but there's plenty of employers who will disagree.

Tom Butcher

schweiz wrote:

F

However as johnfinch found out a degree in Politics doesn't get you far unless it's from Oxford where a degree in PPE will get you into the Houses of Parliament. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11136511

IMO there are far too many people going to University on the back of poor A-Level results studying degrees that have little worth in the employment market. There are, I believe a number of reasons for this. The first is that it was a great ploy by succesive governments to reduce unemployment figures. Students are not unemployed, so get a few hundred thousand into university and hey...unemployment was reduced by the governement.

The second is that there seems to be some kind of view that people ‘need’ to have a degree or else they will never go anywhere in life, which is of course complete BS, but this fuels the demand for even more university places.

The final point is that the universities are, at the end of the day, businesses. They have a small research department specialising in something like Anglo-Italian relations, they need funding and can’t get it off the EU or any other grant giving body so they start a course in Italian Studies. The thing is that your average or above average A-Level student realises that this won’t get them much in the way of future opportunities, so the university offers course entry requirements of 2 E’s and gets a class full of studenty paying £3000 a year which pays the lecturers salaries so they can continue with their research. The university doesn’t really care what the graduate does for a job, as long as they find a job and can show in their stats that 90% of graduates are employed. Maybe employed for the minimum wage, but still employed!

The only thing I'd disagree with is implication that non-vocational require lower A level results. Obviously some do - but many require very high A level results - as with more vocational or science subjects some courses are in demand and some are not.

Pross

A bigger problem for me is the lack of companies that will recruit non- graduates and then give them training whether vocational or up to post grad level. I was lucky in that I left school after GCSEs and joined a Local Authority who gave me day release training that allowed me to obtain an HNC. Once I moved on I then had an employer who allowed me time off to complete a self-funded part-time BEng degree and ultimately funded an MSc course. There will still be some companies up there that will help with a similar training regime but it is obviously harder the way things are at the moment as both recruitment and training are cut but I think too many young people leave school not realising that this is even an option. The plus side is you get experience and money whilst obtaining a degree but it can take you a few years longer than the traditional A level / degree route.

mask of sanity

I'm not against fees rising. You get to many 'wasters' at university who are there just to mess around. I took my degree very seriously and was quite offended by those people who just didn't care about the academic side of university. If a rise in fee's means that those people no longer go to university then I am all for it.

I agree that having a degree is not the only way in which you can get a good job but I know for a fact that I would not be able to apply for the jobs I am without my degree. Worth the £18,000 worth of 'debt' I have? Damn right!!