Do pedestrians ever get hit by cyclists

jeremyrundle

I am amazed that you all live in a place like that and have so few, I live in Tavistock Devon and in one week five morons have walked out in front and two cars at roundabouts.

snailracer

dave@davekitchen.com wrote:

...I have what I term Near Pedestrian Collisions or NPC events. I used to average 3 NPCs a week. Since Thursday I'm up to 8 NPCs a day...

Those stats seem extreme.

dave@davekitchen.com wrote:

...We get people walking up the middle of the road not on pavements now...

There is no law against it, peds can do that if they want to. Just like cyclists can ignore the cycle path and ride in the road, right in the middle of the lane.

dave@davekitchen.com wrote:

...The most common is the Pedestrian Broadside. That is they walk into you, or more often scream as they suddenly stop and realise they nearly hospitalised themselves...

More likely to hospitalise YOU. In a collision between a cyclist and a pedestrian, the cyclist is much more likely to get hurt. In 2009, about 12 cyclists were killed in such collisions while no pedestrians were.

dave@davekitchen.com wrote:

...During the ice conditions before Christmas it was worse. You have to shout, no brakes, no brakes, in the hope to get their attention...

Riding around with no ability to brake. Not very sensible, is it? Would it be OK for a car to do that?

dave@davekitchen.com wrote:

...There is a total breakdown of the Green Cross Code here...

In urban London, peds are and have always been lemmings, this should not be taking you by surprise. Plus, they're not about to change their behaviour anytime soon.

dave@davekitchen.com wrote:

...But I need to get from A to B and that's what the road is primarily for. We have pavements for Pedestrians...

Lots of motorists think roads are primarily for cars, and that cycle paths are for cyclists. Peds probably find it annoying that they have to cross the road, too.

dave@davekitchen.com wrote:

...What can I do?

Slow down. Cover the brakes. Anticipate.

whyamihere

In a good few years of riding on the road, I've had exactly one near miss. The reason for that was black ice on the immediate approach to a pedestrian crossing, and I opted to stop braking and ride through, shouting a warning, rather than locking the wheels, falling off and probably hitting the pedestrian anyway. Entirely my fault, I was going too fast for the conditions, and when I was able to safely stop I shouted an apology (which was accepted).

Also, I ride fast. On my way into/out of Birmingham city centre, I'll regularly exceed 30mph, and though I will sometimes see peds stepping out, I've never hit one. The fact is, they're not acting unpredictably, generally. Not once have I seen someone walking on a pavement turn 90 degrees and step into the road. There will be a movement across the pavement towards the road. If I see a ped walking at the edge of the pavement next to the road, I move out further into the lane well in advance of reaching them, and be prepared to slow down. When passing parked cars, I'll give myself enough room, anyone behind me can damn well wait. If there's a crowd of people on the pavement and a chance that one will be stepping out, I'll have claimed the lane, and be riding with enough space to allow them to step out without harming me, well in advance of it being a problem.

I'm not saying I'll *never* have an altercation with a pedestrian, there may be some circumstance which I can't control causing me to hit someone. What I can say is that I ride in a way which minimises the possibility of an impact, and it seems to be working pretty nicely.

deptfordmarmoset

dhope wrote:

dave@davekitchen.com wrote:

I live in New Cross in London. I commute to work every morning on the bike. I have what I term Near Pedestrian Collisions or NPC events. I used to average 3 NPCs a week. Since Thursday I'm up to 8 NPCs a day. I've even had a mother with 2 toddlers walk out in front of me. I did an emergency stop she said in a heavy foreign accent that "I must stop when she cross road". That's the general attitude towards cyclists. We get people walking up the middle of the road not on pavements now.

The most common is the Pedestrian Broadside. That is they walk into you, or more often scream as they suddenly stop and realise they nearly hospitalised themselves.

During the ice conditions before Christmas it was worse. You have to shout, no brakes, no brakes, in the hope to get their attention.

There is a total breakdown of the Green Cross Code here. I've heard in this discussion that pedestrians have the right of way. But I need to get from A to B and that's what the road is primarily for. We have pavements for Pedestrians.

What can I do?

Not sure how you manage so many near collisions, I live in nearly the same area and rarely have anything like a near miss. Plenty of times people aren't paying as much attention as they should be but I generally spot this before they do and position myself such that when they do realise then they don't make things awkward for me. Cannon Street and London Bridge are the two exceptions, but there are so many people streaming out of the stations that you expect to have plenty of muppets and ride further from the kerb and a bit more slowly.

Talking of SE London road sense, I saw the nearest of near misses this morning following a classic ''pedestrian crosses road without properly looking while cyclist simultaneously jumps the red light'' script on Deptford Church Street this morning. I only had time to whimper an ineffective ''whoa'' before the ped realised what was about to happen to him. The cyclist was the one most clearly in the wrong, the ped had simply assumed that, as the traffic was stopped at a red light, it would be safe to cross without bothering to look at exactly the same time as the cyclist had seen the red light decided it didn't apply to him. It's a good job neither of them were in cars.

dhope

dave@davekitchen.com wrote:

...

Are you the same David Kitchen (/Velocio) from LFGSS?

W1

deptfordmarmoset wrote:

Talking of SE London road sense, I saw the nearest of near misses this morning following a classic ''pedestrian crosses road without properly looking while cyclist simultaneously jumps the red light'' script on Deptford Church Street this morning. I only had time to whimper an ineffective ''whoa'' before the ped realised what was about to happen to him. The cyclist was the one most clearly in the wrong, the ped had simply assumed that, as the traffic was stopped at a red light, it would be safe to cross without bothering to look at exactly the same time as the cyclist had seen the red light decided it didn't apply to him. It's a good job neither of them were in cars.

My closest "near misses" with peds is when they cross through stationary traffic, thinking the light has turned red and they fail to anticipate that cyclists (and motorbikes) will be filtering. I think it's one of the most dangerous scenarios. I have been shouted at twice by dopey peds who thought I was running a red.....

DonDaddyD

Do pedestrian get hit by cyclists?

By me they have.

I was going down Coldharbour lane heading towards Brixton. Heavy traffic, dark, I'm filtering on the left - now there was a debate as to whether I should have been, I still maintain on that narrow road you should. Guy steps out from the front of a van. Smack, I couldn't stop - now there was a debate that I could have been going slower, but given that I'm a solid 16st and this guy didn't fall over makes me feel I was going slow enough.

Anyway, we look at each other realise it would be mutally assured destruction. Made sure each other was alright and went our on ways.

So yes, I think its possible for peds to be hit by cyclists.

Greg T

dave@davekitchen.com wrote:

I live in New Cross in London. I commute to work every morning on the bike. I have what I term Near Pedestrian Collisions or NPC events. I used to average 3 NPCs a week. Since Thursday I'm up to 8 NPCs a day.

What can I do?

I ride 30 miles a day across the centre of london and have for the best part of ten years

I can't remember ever having come close to hitting a ped.

So - observation, anticipation and speed suitable for the conditions.... etc....

asprilla

I had two ped near misses in 2010, both in the same place and same circumstances (obviously I never learn): Pedestrian crossing on Wood Lane, left lane is a bus lane and is usually empty and the right lane is usually full of traffic. That frequently means that even when my light is green peds cross the road without looking because they see the cars not moving.

On the second occasion all the peds were waiting nicely and were even looking down the road as I was beetling towards them. One stepped out without looking and everyone else followed like lemmings leaving me bearing down on a meat wall. It was like they lost control of their free will.

notsoblue

Greg T wrote:

dave@davekitchen.com wrote:

I live in New Cross in London. I commute to work every morning on the bike. I have what I term Near Pedestrian Collisions or NPC events. I used to average 3 NPCs a week. Since Thursday I'm up to 8 NPCs a day.

What can I do?

I ride 30 miles a day across the centre of london and have for the best part of ten years

I can't remember ever having come close to hitting a ped.

So - observation, anticipation and speed suitable for the conditions.... etc....

To be fair I think it depends a great deal on your route. I used to commute down Oxford Street and having to dodge pedestrians (near collision?) was just a normal part of the ride. I now commute mainly along the Embankment and have only had issues with pedestrians when I cut up at Blackfriars to Farringdon. Most notably a collision recently with a pedestrian who was literally running through slow moving traffic. Observation, anticipation and appropriate speed count for a lot, but there are just some situations you can't avoid.

I'm surprised to hear you haven't come close to hitting a ped in London tbh. You've literally never had to slow down or move to avoid someone stepping into the road?

jedster

I've been cycling through central london nearly every day for 6 years and I have never come close to hitting a pedestrian. Pedestrians have stepped out in front of me without looking but I've always seen them at the kerbside and taken precautionary action first:

1. cover brakes
2. move wider into the road if possible
3. slow down if not

So I've been able to avoid them with minimal drama.
I cycle quicker than most of the other cyclists I see so I'm not pootling as a result.

Now I do think it is possible to hit pedestrians even if you using good anticipation and taking defensive action. I think a pedestrian who sprinted from behind a parked van would probably defeat even the most cautious cyclist but peds who step off the kerb without looking? No real excuse for hitting them IMO.

There is a pretty important issue at the heart of this, just because another road user does something silly does not remove your responsibility to avoid them. It may not be possible but you should do your best. That means anticipating potential problems not just reacting to them. Some people on this thread seem to believe that's it's OK to say "they screwed up, fook 'em". Any cyclist who is surprised when a ped steps off a kerb without looking is pretty slow on the uptake!

Cheers,

J

PedalPedant

W1 wrote:

My closest "near misses" with peds is when they cross through stationary traffic, thinking the light has turned red and they fail to anticipate that cyclists (and motorbikes) will be filtering. I think it's one of the most dangerous scenarios. I have been shouted at twice by dopey peds who thought I was running a red.....

I'm assuming you're talking about filtering through pedestrian crossings (apologies if I've mis-interpreted what you're saying) in which case you shouldn't really doing that anyway.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070339

I think that rule exists purely because, as you say, it's one of the most dangerous scenarios.

PP

jonginge

PedalPedant wrote:

W1 wrote:

My closest "near misses" with peds is when they cross through stationary traffic, thinking the light has turned red and they fail to anticipate that cyclists (and motorbikes) will be filtering. I think it's one of the most dangerous scenarios. I have been shouted at twice by dopey peds who thought I was running a red.....

I'm assuming you're talking about filtering through pedestrian crossings (apologies if I've mis-interpreted what you're saying) in which case you shouldn't really doing that anyway.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070339

I think that rule exists purely because, as you say, it's one of the most dangerous scenarios.

PP

Nope, I'm fairly sure he means pedestrians that cross through stationary traffic away from crossings. They do this a lot... caution, spidey-sense and slower speeds required

W1

PedalPedant wrote:

W1 wrote:

My closest "near misses" with peds is when they cross through stationary traffic, thinking the light has turned red and they fail to anticipate that cyclists (and motorbikes) will be filtering. I think it's one of the most dangerous scenarios. I have been shouted at twice by dopey peds who thought I was running a red.....

I'm assuming you're talking about filtering through pedestrian crossings (apologies if I've mis-interpreted what you're saying) in which case you shouldn't really doing that anyway.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070339

I think that rule exists purely because, as you say, it's one of the most dangerous scenarios.

PP

Acutally as it happens they were both at junctions rather than dedicated crossings.

I find that rule hard to understand - you're not allowed to overtake a moving vehicle by a crossing? In the pictures the lights are red, in which case I obviously wouldn't be filtering through, but if the lights are green you still can't overtake?

jeremyrundle

Greg T wrote:

dave@davekitchen.com wrote:

I live in New Cross in London. I commute to work every morning on the bike. I have what I term Near Pedestrian Collisions or NPC events. I used to average 3 NPCs a week. Since Thursday I'm up to 8 NPCs a day.

What can I do?

I ride 30 miles a day across the centre of london and have for the best part of ten years

I can't remember ever having come close to hitting a ped.

So - observation, anticipation and speed suitable for the conditions.... etc....

Or just luck, one day....

kurako

W1 wrote:

PedalPedant wrote:

W1 wrote:

My closest "near misses" with peds is when they cross through stationary traffic, thinking the light has turned red and they fail to anticipate that cyclists (and motorbikes) will be filtering. I think it's one of the most dangerous scenarios. I have been shouted at twice by dopey peds who thought I was running a red.....

I'm assuming you're talking about filtering through pedestrian crossings (apologies if I've mis-interpreted what you're saying) in which case you shouldn't really doing that anyway.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070339

I think that rule exists purely because, as you say, it's one of the most dangerous scenarios.

PP

Acutally as it happens they were both at junctions rather than dedicated crossings.

I find that rule hard to understand - you're not allowed to overtake a moving vehicle by a crossing? In the pictures the lights are red, in which case I obviously wouldn't be filtering through, but if the lights are green you still can't overtake?

Don't overtake a moving vehicle near a crossing or one that has stopped to give way to pedestrians. If a vehicle is stopped and there are no pedestrians you proceed with caution. What's confusing about that?

rjsterry

The only two pedestrian I can remember hitting are the one who stepped off the kerb into the side of me as I was very slowly filtering up to the ASL by Tooting Bec station. As my front wheel was already past her, there wasn't much that I could do, but even then, I can remember thinking a few metres back "she's not looking where she's going", hence my low speed.

The other one stepped out from between two stationary cars opposite Putney rail station. I was filtering on the outside - so much for this being safer - so not too slowly. In hind sight, my view was blocked by a white van, so I should probably have slowed a bit, but was still carrying some speed from crossing URR. Again, she was not looking and stepped out maybe a metre from me, so no time for anything other than a bit of a swerve. Luckily she saw me at the last moment, and we just bumped shoulders - no harm done and both parties remained standing/riding.

This is basically the same issue as discussed in Gaz's thread about his off caused by someone cutting across a bus lane - field of view and stopping distance need to be taken into account, but sometimes even reasonable precautions aren't enough. I would also say that certain routes are much worse for this than others. One of the bonuses of the Embankment is that there aren't many peds, and fewer still trying to cross the road due to the relatively high traffic speeds.

dhope

jeremyrundle wrote:

Greg T wrote:

dave@davekitchen.com wrote:

I live in New Cross in London. I commute to work every morning on the bike. I have what I term Near Pedestrian Collisions or NPC events. I used to average 3 NPCs a week. Since Thursday I'm up to 8 NPCs a day.

What can I do?

I ride 30 miles a day across the centre of london and have for the best part of ten years

I can't remember ever having come close to hitting a ped.

So - observation, anticipation and speed suitable for the conditions.... etc....

Or just luck, one day....

Obviously. On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
[/Tyler]

Not sure we can simply attribute ten years without a near miss to luck and 8 near misses a day to bad luck.

PedalPedant

W1 wrote:

Acutally as it happens they were both at junctions rather than dedicated crossings.

So I had misunderstood, I think the rule only applies if the zig-zags are present.

W1 wrote:

I find that rule hard to understand - you're not allowed to overtake a moving vehicle by a crossing? In the pictures the lights are red, in which case I obviously wouldn't be filtering through, but if the lights are green you still can't overtake?

That's my understanding yes, you should rejoin the queue behind the vehicle closest to the crossing and only go through when the queue starts moving again.

I know of a motorcyclist that was given a fixed penatly notice for breaking this rule, whether the police would bother with cyclists is another question though.

PP

[edit] typo

W1

PedalPedant wrote:

W1 wrote:

Acutally as it happens they were both at junctions rather than dedicated crossings.

So I had misunderstood, I think the rule only applies if the zig-zags are present.

W1 wrote:

I find that rule hard to understand - you're not allowed to overtake a moving vehicle by a crossing? In the pictures the lights are red, in which case I obviously wouldn't be filtering through, but if the lights are green you still can't overtake?

That's my understanding yes, you should rejoin the queue behind the vehicle closest to the crossing and only go through when the queue starts moving again.

I know of a motorcyclist that was given a fixed penatly notice for breaking this rule, whether the police would bother with cyclists is another question though.

PP

[edit] typo

Well you learn something new - interesting, thanks for that.