We really are a bunch of mugs.

2

Comments

  • desweller
    desweller Posts: 5,175
    Is anyone buying those frames because of their technical capabilities? They are buying them for their cachet. Everyone understands the principle of diminishing returns.

    As for the Aston, never mind the switch gear - the V12 engine was basically two Ford Duratec V6s bolted together! It might have some bloke's name on it but it's still a Ford lump at heart.

    On the other hand it's also worth noting that the motorbike manufacturers are also often big automakers or have access to their mass manufacturing expertise, which obviously helps to reduce costs, whereas your average small-time CFRP frame builder is likely to be pretty inefficient.
    - - - - - - - - - -
    On Strava.{/url}
  • morstar
    morstar Posts: 6,190
    Desweller, this is a good point. It is not just about supply and demand. Supply and demand have a huge influence on what price the market will stand but the magnitude of pricing for bikes as a whole is dictated by economies of scale and costs of R and D. These are disproportionately higher for the pushbike manufacturer when compared to the motorbike manufacturer.

    That aside, yes we're mugs if we entertain buying such a bike with anything other than a budget that can comfortably cover such extravagance.
  • prb007
    prb007 Posts: 703
    nwallace wrote:
    A mate was rebuilding some hubs.
    If he got the bearings from a bike shop, via a bike part supplier from the manufacturer of the hubs it was going to cost him £15

    But being a farmer he went to a parts depot and asked them if they had "one of these", 40p.

    +1
    The back end of my Felt Compulsion gave up the ghost 9 months ago.
    Needle bearings and OEM roller bearings would have been £50-ish.
    A bit of legwork (well, mousework!) and all sorted for about £12
    Oilite bushes and skateboard bearings ffs!

    As far as paying 5 figures for a pushbike, that's not gonna
    happen until I win the EuroMillions!

    Reminds me of the quote...........
    Why spend a king's ransom on the latest titanium confection when any weight advantage will be rendered irrelevant by a cheese-and-pickle sandwich
    and a thermos of soup? :wink:
    If Wales was flattened out, it'd be bigger than England!
    Planet X Ti Sportive for Sportives & tours
    Orange Alpine 160 for Afan,Alps & dodging trees
    Singlespeed Planet X Kaffenback for dodging potholes
    An On-One Inbred for hard-tail shenanigans...
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    NapoleonD wrote:
    RichardSwt wrote:
    In a way your comparing apples to oranges, that CBR is little more than a £800 alloy framed hybrid, the frame you posted is a little more special.

    To make it more even I'd suggest you compare it to this little sausage -

    http://www.ducati.com/bikes/superbike/1198_r_corse/index.do

    Then the prices start to fall a little more in to line. :)

    I was comparing price with price...

    It was a way of saying 'look at how much we pay for some small bits of plastic, alloy and titanium when we could get something far more engineered for the same.'

    You make an excellent point that I can't find fault with. I seem to recall reading, some years ago, that for every dollar Budweiser made, 10 cent's went into the production, brewing, fascilities, wages and distribution of it's beer. The rest, 90% went into advertising. Could cycling be something like this? :? :?
  • nolf
    nolf Posts: 1,287
    dennisn wrote:
    NapoleonD wrote:
    RichardSwt wrote:
    In a way your comparing apples to oranges, that CBR is little more than a £800 alloy framed hybrid, the frame you posted is a little more special.

    To make it more even I'd suggest you compare it to this little sausage -

    http://www.ducati.com/bikes/superbike/1198_r_corse/index.do

    Then the prices start to fall a little more in to line. :)

    I was comparing price with price...

    It was a way of saying 'look at how much we pay for some small bits of plastic, alloy and titanium when we could get something far more engineered for the same.'

    You make an excellent point that I can't find fault with. I seem to recall reading, some years ago, that for every dollar Budweiser made, 10 cent's went into the production, brewing, fascilities, wages and distribution of it's beer. The rest, 90% went into advertising. Could cycling be something like this? :? :?

    Unlikely, the beer market is so overly competitive that marketing becomes a key differentiator, also they have well established brands, with only a few products so don't spend much on R&D.
    In cycling they sponsor pro teams and every year bring out new models of bike with upgraded componenets/frame etc.
    "I hold it true, what'er befall;
    I feel it, when I sorrow most;
    'Tis better to have loved and lost;
    Than never to have loved at all."

    Alfred Tennyson
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    nolf wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    NapoleonD wrote:
    RichardSwt wrote:
    In a way your comparing apples to oranges, that CBR is little more than a £800 alloy framed hybrid, the frame you posted is a little more special.

    To make it more even I'd suggest you compare it to this little sausage -

    http://www.ducati.com/bikes/superbike/1198_r_corse/index.do

    Then the prices start to fall a little more in to line. :)

    I was comparing price with price...

    It was a way of saying 'look at how much we pay for some small bits of plastic, alloy and titanium when we could get something far more engineered for the same.'

    You make an excellent point that I can't find fault with. I seem to recall reading, some years ago, that for every dollar Budweiser made, 10 cent's went into the production, brewing, fascilities, wages and distribution of it's beer. The rest, 90% went into advertising. Could cycling be something like this? :? :?

    Unlikely, the beer market is so overly competitive that marketing becomes a key differentiator, also they have well established brands, with only a few products so don't spend much on R&D.
    In cycling they sponsor pro teams and every year bring out new models of bike with upgraded componenets/frame etc.

    I agree about the beer marketing. The word Budweiser or Bud is everywhere, on everything. The cost of doing this must be astronomical.
    As for cycling they have the same issue. Get their name out there on everything they can(i.e. Cervelo bikes are simply billboards first and bikes second). As for bike and component R & D. With the exception of the occasional REAL developement(i.e. quick release, outboard bearings, Shifter / brake combo's, electronic shifting) I don't buy what I think is your theory that manufacturers spend bunches on R & D. Bike frames look much as they did a century ago. So do bars, wheels, spokes, cranksets, cogs, chains, seatposts, brake levers, and so on. I just don't see lots of R & D going into it all. What I do see is bling, styling, and a bit of flash(for lack of a better word) being the order of the day and I don't consider that R & D spending. Well, other than it being R & D in the respect
    of "How do we need to make this look so it will sell?"
  • nolf
    nolf Posts: 1,287
    Yeah that's probably fair that a lot of the r&d is really just styling and aesthetics.
    "I hold it true, what'er befall;
    I feel it, when I sorrow most;
    'Tis better to have loved and lost;
    Than never to have loved at all."

    Alfred Tennyson
  • rdt
    rdt Posts: 869
    dommccabe17 wrote:
    just more proof that cycling has become the new golf.

    Cycling appears to have become a Treasure Island for manufacturers and some retailers alike, gullible punters having lost their grip on reality some time ago.

    Grown men seemingly convinced that because the insert in their flimsy bib-shorts is shaped just-so, they represent "excellent value" at just £150+, rather than the £1.20 they cost to manufacture. Or 28p if Primark were to have them manufactured.

    You know things are bad when even the Crane Sports gear in Aldi is border-line overpriced for what it is.

    And better still, all this fat-profit-margin gear comes emblazoned with the manufacturers' tacky brand names, so you have the pleasure of both being fleeced and then advertising that fact (and their brand) to other fellow fleecees.

    It almost seems rude not to create either some supposedly hi-tech or oh-so-cool retro styled brand, and join in the party too.
  • tigerben
    tigerben Posts: 233
    we are not the biggest mugs... £9k will not even buy you a set off ceramic brakes for a ferrari....
  • Pretre
    Pretre Posts: 355
    rdt wrote:
    dommccabe17 wrote:
    just more proof that cycling has become the new golf.

    Cycling appears to have become a Treasure Island for manufacturers and some retailers alike, gullible punters having lost their grip on reality some time ago.

    Grown men seemingly convinced that because the insert in their flimsy bib-shorts is shaped just-so, they represent "excellent value" at just £150+, rather than the £1.20 they cost to manufacture. Or 28p if Primark were to have them manufactured.

    You know things are bad when even the Crane Sports gear in Aldi is border-line overpriced for what it is.

    And better still, all this fat-profit-margin gear comes emblazoned with the manufacturers' tacky brand names, so you have the pleasure of both being fleeced and then advertising that fact (and their brand) to other fellow fleecees.

    It almost seems rude not to create either some supposedly hi-tech or oh-so-cool retro styled brand, and join in the party too.

    If you think that all cycling stuff is a rip-off why do you think everyone still buys it? People aren't stupid - if something is overpriced then no-one will buy it & prices will therefore drop.
  • verylonglegs
    verylonglegs Posts: 4,023
    Pretre wrote:
    rdt wrote:
    dommccabe17 wrote:
    just more proof that cycling has become the new golf.

    Cycling appears to have become a Treasure Island for manufacturers and some retailers alike, gullible punters having lost their grip on reality some time ago.

    Grown men seemingly convinced that because the insert in their flimsy bib-shorts is shaped just-so, they represent "excellent value" at just £150+, rather than the £1.20 they cost to manufacture. Or 28p if Primark were to have them manufactured.

    You know things are bad when even the Crane Sports gear in Aldi is border-line overpriced for what it is.

    And better still, all this fat-profit-margin gear comes emblazoned with the manufacturers' tacky brand names, so you have the pleasure of both being fleeced and then advertising that fact (and their brand) to other fellow fleecees.

    It almost seems rude not to create either some supposedly hi-tech or oh-so-cool retro styled brand, and join in the party too.

    If you think that all cycling stuff is a rip-off why do you think everyone still buys it? People aren't stupid - if something is overpriced then no-one will buy it & prices will therefore drop.

    Hmmn there are stupid people out there you know, they do exist. Why do you think cosmetics companies can sell little pots of anti-aging cream for 3 figure sums? There is always a sucker somewhere.

    Looking at it in the context of cycling clothing, I think there are people who have a poor sense of value. I haven't paid the full RRP for any kit for years as I find there is always something around for a very reasonable discount in the sales. However there is obviously someone out there stumping up the full price but its their money to spend as they see fit I guess.
  • antfly
    antfly Posts: 3,276
    People are definitely stupid, how else could you sell impratical carbon bottle cages for a hundred quid when you can buy better alloy ones for a tenner? Or carbon pumps that are no lighter just thrice the price?
    Smarter than the average bear.
  • daviesee
    daviesee Posts: 6,386
    Said it before and I am saying it again.

    We may be mugs but there is worse out there........

    http://www.noiseaddicts.com/2008/11/mos ... udiophile/
    None of the above should be taken seriously, and certainly not personally.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    daviesee wrote:
    Said it before and I am saying it again.

    We may be mugs but there is worse out there........

    http://www.noiseaddicts.com/2008/11/mos ... udiophile/

    MIT Oracle is more expensive than that.

    (I run MIT Speaker cable and interconnects, but they are mid range...)
  • freehub
    freehub Posts: 4,257
    People who buy mega expensive digital cables are proper mugs, the cheapest crap will be no worse than the expensive crap. I used to use a 10 meter white side of the RCA L/R Audio and it worked perfectly, no difference using a proper 1m coax/optical.
  • acebobby
    acebobby Posts: 95
    The thing is people are entitled to spend their cash on whatever they want, but in this day in age what would make you a mug is not shopping about for what you want!
    I bought a Ducati 848 superbike earlier this year and some people think I'm a mug for not spending the cash on a much more powerfull japanese equivalent at the same price, thing is I have been riding motorbikes for years, have a cbr600rr racebike for the track and went and spent my hard earned cash on the exact bike I wanted!
    Onto bicycles, I am new to cycling so with some advice from my LBS I went and bought an entry level Giant Defy 3.5, I basically love this bike and every mile so far has been a pleasure! The thing is, why are entry level bikes cheap at £500-£1000? The answer is simply this, they are mass produced which cuts manufacturing costs considerably, the technology from the top end bikes from only a few years ago has made its way onto them as the R&D costs of this technology was paid for by the sales of the top end bikes at the time!
    This is something that happens in all sports nowadays, the entry level equipment is more than capable but hay if its your hobby and you can afford it why not buy the top end equipment, I say go for it, does it make you a mug, as long as your not getting into serious debt or harming anyone else, maybe no, maybe yes but at least you'll be a mug with a smile on your face!

    Bobby
    getting faster, fitter, and skinnier by the day!
  • freehub
    freehub Posts: 4,257
    For £1000 you can get a bike that is more than "entry level" if you look around, when I bought my CAAD9 it was £900 and it was not entry level, it was not high end too.
  • eh
    eh Posts: 4,854
    That Cervelo is a proper rip off, however, does anyone pay full price for these kind of bikes? Everyone I know has mint bikes and no one paid full price for them, they always get some kind of deal, only real mugs pay the list price on something like that.
  • Thick Tester
    Thick Tester Posts: 380
    There's a marketing phrase that encompasses all who enter into such purchases

    'Earlyadoptits'
  • acebobby
    acebobby Posts: 95
    freehub wrote:
    For £1000 you can get a bike that is more than "entry level" if you look around, when I bought my CAAD9 it was £900 and it was not entry level, it was not high end too.

    precisely my point of shopping around and getting exactly what you want, I am new to cycling so dont know the exact pricing of bikes etc and didn't mean to appear to be de-meaning any of the bikes in that price range. I was more aiming towards how a mass produced bike would be cheaper than a top end hand built bike, not because its less of a bike but just because of the costs to develop and manufacture!

    Bobby
    getting faster, fitter, and skinnier by the day!
  • acebobby
    acebobby Posts: 95
    Thick Tester wrote:
    There's a marketing phrase that encompasses all who enter into such purchases

    'Earlyadoptits'

    isn't it ironic that they have the word tits in their marketing phrase!
    getting faster, fitter, and skinnier by the day!
  • rajMAN
    rajMAN Posts: 429
    According to The Italian Cyling Journal, the news coming out of Eurobike is that the big suppliers, such as Toray have increased their price of Carbon Fibre by 66%. Yes, that did read SIXTY SIX PERCENT!!!!! :shock:
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    rajMAN wrote:
    According to The Italian Cyling Journal, the news coming out of Eurobike is that the big suppliers, such as Toray have increased their price of Carbon Fibre by 66%. Yes, that did read SIXTY SIX PERCENT!!!!! :shock:

    Makes sense to me. If I owned Toray I would charge whatever the market would bear.
    People, it would seem, feel that they must have carbon fiber. They can't live without it.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    The actual cost of carbon fibre is tiny. It's the lay up and moulding etc that's expensive...
  • greasedscotsman
    greasedscotsman Posts: 6,962
    rajMAN wrote:
    According to The Italian Cyling Journal, the news coming out of Eurobike is that the big suppliers, such as Toray have increased their price of Carbon Fibre by 66%. Yes, that did read SIXTY SIX PERCENT!!!!! :shock:

    Looks like a custom steel bike for me next then...
  • rajMAN
    rajMAN Posts: 429
    greasedscotsman wrote:
    rajMAN wrote:
    According to The Italian Cyling Journal, the news coming out of Eurobike is that the big suppliers, such as Toray have increased their price of Carbon Fibre by 66%. Yes, that did read SIXTY SIX PERCENT!!!!! :shock:

    Looks like a custom steel bike for me next then...

    That's exactly where my thought is going. Steel could be looking like the real deal again!! :D
  • daviesee
    daviesee Posts: 6,386
    greasedscotsman wrote:
    rajMAN wrote:
    According to The Italian Cyling Journal, the news coming out of Eurobike is that the big suppliers, such as Toray have increased their price of Carbon Fibre by 66%. Yes, that did read SIXTY SIX PERCENT!!!!! :shock:

    Looks like a custom steel bike for me next then...

    Might not be a respite there either. All raw material costs seem to be going through the roof.
    My frame would now be 50% more expensive than when i bought it 2 years ago.
    I don't know if I could justify the price of my bike now.

    Just glad I got it when I did 8)
    None of the above should be taken seriously, and certainly not personally.
  • greasedscotsman
    greasedscotsman Posts: 6,962
    Err, one of those bamboo ones then?
  • keef66
    keef66 Posts: 13,123
    The rocketing price of steel is the reason that all the drain covers on the Debden Road out of Saffron Walden went missing one night. That and some collusion between the scum who nicked them and the scrap metal dealer who bought them.
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    While looking through a bike parts catalog I came accross the NEW Time I-Clic pedal.
    The, so called, big deal with this pedal is that it doesn't require you to overcome spring resistance to clip in. This caught my eye because I never thought that overcoming that little bit of spring resistance, to clip in, was a problem.
    Someone correct me if I'm wrong???? :? :? :?
    This pedal with this '"great new feature" is 250.00 USD.

Categories