Is Andy a rider overrated?
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squired wrote:When you are being paid mega bucks I think you need to be challenging for honours at multiple races.
I think the smart money is on the guys who can come up with the wins. Not the guys flogging themselves to death trying to simply get a good placing. The guys who can WIN
are the money men and if they win the biggest one of all, well, the other races just don't matter. I think it's smart, very smart, trying to peak for THE BIG ONE. You may want to see a certain rider kill the competition on a daily basis, but it's not possible. Got to learn to choose your battles. Take LA for example, he wanted that ONE RACE and maybe knew he didn't have it in him to win everything. So he goes for the one he really wants and simply uses the rest as training. Seemed to work for him and it's not against the rules.0 -
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Stone Glider wrote:A fine talented rider but very young. Please do not try to give "The Look" to AC until you have won at least half a dozen TdF's.
Plenty of time to adjust and develop into the "next best thing".
The problem seems to be that AC is nearly the same age and much more mature. To defend a GT title when your health is indifferent and your form far from what you desire is quite an impressive achievement. Still plenty of time.....
Two and a half years between them. How many GTs or monuments had Bertie won 2 1/2 years ago?___________________
Strava is not Zen.0 -
Bloody Hell, do you have to bring that Bum into the conversation. Why do you want to Sour every discussion. ????dennisn wrote:[ Take LA for example, he wanted that ONE RACE and maybe knew he didn't have it in him to win everything. So he goes for the one he really wants and simply uses the rest as training. Seemed to work for him and it's not against the rules.
If that is the example you crave for again then it's time I just got out of the sport.
This thread was about competition racing and not someones EGO trip at any cost.
The current TDF master can win Paris-Nice and the TDF in one year, although I doubt he will need do it again.
I hope he rides and wins the Spanish stage races again and not become a 7 week, 7 year Superman. doh, is that all he could do.
What in how many years was that. ???
I hope Bjarne will not change his EGO and he remains the rider that lets his legs do the talking and retires gracefully like most other Great Legends have.Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
I think he would actually benefit fom riding in a different team to Frank but he seems far too close to him for this to ever happen. The problem is being the younger brother he seems to automatically assume the minor roll when he is actually the better rider plus he appears to lack that killer instinct that major champions in all sports require. That said he's a classy rider and has the potential and time to win a Tour, Contador can't always guarantee being healthy, in form and lucky with mechanicals and crashes for most of July and there's no one else Andy should fear.0
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[/quote]Bloody Hell, do you have to bring that Bum into the conversation. Why do you want to Sour every discussion. ????
If that is the example you crave for again then it's time I just got out of the sport.
This thread was about competition racing and not someones EGO trip at any cost.
The current TDF master can win Paris-Nice and the TDF in one year, although I doubt he will need do it again.
I hope he rides and wins the Spanish stage races again and not become a 7 week, 7 year Superman. doh, is that all he could do.
What in how many years was that. ???
I hope Bjarne will not change his EGO and he remains the rider that lets his legs do the talking and retires gracefully like most other Great Legends have.[/quote]
Bit OTT that dude. He came up with the best example of a rider that was just focused on the "big one" and stated that he didn't think there was anything wrong in doing it.0 -
deejay wrote:dennisn wrote:[ Take LA for example, he wanted that ONE RACE and maybe knew he didn't have it in him to win everything. So he goes for the one he really wants and simply uses the rest as training. Seemed to work for him and it's not against the rules.
Bloody Hell, do you have to bring that Bum into the conversation. Why do you want to Sour every discussion. ????
If that is the example you crave for again then it's time I just got out of the sport.
This thread was about competition racing and not someones EGO trip at any cost.
I sour every discussion just because it infuriates people like you. :P :P :twisted:
So just get out of the sport. i really do crave LA and his ego. You can keep your loser riders to your loser self. :P :P0 -
That might suit you being stuck up there in the middle of nowhere but I have always been involved with a full season of cycle racing including the REAL Greats riding the Track through the Winter instead of sitting at home playing with themselves.dennisn wrote:
I sour every discussion just because it infuriates people like you. :P :P :twisted:deejay wrote:
Bloody Hell, do you have to bring that Bum into the conversation. Why do you want to Sour every discussion. ????dennisn wrote:[ Take LA for example, he wanted that ONE RACE and maybe knew he didn't have it in him to win everything. So he goes for the one he really wants and simply uses the rest as training. Seemed to work for him and it's not against the rules.
If that is the example you crave for again then it's time I just got out of the sport.
This thread was about competition racing and not someones EGO trip at any cost.
So just get out of the sport. i really do crave LA and his ego. You can keep your loser riders to your loser self. :P :P
Nah I wont give up because of one crud that I have seen many times and "oh God" I've heard the bum talking from a couple of feet away.Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
I find this all a bit odd.
Schleck is easily the best climber in any peleton bar Contador (just), and it's well known that Contador is pretty damn special.
Furthermore, Schleck's got a good track record for his age in one- dayers as well as in GTs, where again, he is probably the best GTer bar Contador, and has reasonable room for TT improvement.
He can ride the peleton well, and as far as I am concerned, his only genuine weakness is decending.
I don't subscribe to champions requiring a charcter flaw. I think everyone has flaws and champion personalities are often discected to find out what they are.
He's more openly confident in his abilities than any other rider in the peleton save, wait for it, Contador.
He's a genuine superstar. Not overrated.0 -
deejay wrote:
That might suit you being stuck up there in the middle of nowhere but I have always been involved with a full season of cycle racing including the REAL Greats riding the Track through the Winter instead of sitting at home playing with themselves.dennisn wrote:
I sour every discussion just because it infuriates people like you. :P :P :twisted:deejay wrote:
Bloody Hell, do you have to bring that Bum into the conversation. Why do you want to Sour every discussion. ????dennisn wrote:[ Take LA for example, he wanted that ONE RACE and maybe knew he didn't have it in him to win everything. So he goes for the one he really wants and simply uses the rest as training. Seemed to work for him and it's not against the rules.
If that is the example you crave for again then it's time I just got out of the sport.
This thread was about competition racing and not someones EGO trip at any cost.
So just get out of the sport. i really do crave LA and his ego. You can keep your loser riders to your loser self. :P :P
Nah I wont give up because of one crud that I have seen many times and "oh God" I've heard the bum talking from a couple of feet away.
Take it easy. You'll pop a blood vessel. It's tit for tat. You call someone a bum, I call you a loser. What's the problem in that? Don't tell me you're TOO GOOD to be criticized.0 -
[/intelligent debate]___________________
Strava is not Zen.0 -
Just a thought thats not been covered so far - any chance Andy could of lost time so rule himself out as a GC contender and therefore allow him to break away in a mountain stage and win a stage for his team - could easily be preconcieved tactics. Let's be honest if he was still in the mix then the peleton wouldnt let him out of their sights despite the "I am riding this for Franck" quotes.
I am no expert but could seem a rational reason for yesterdays performance rather than the pop psychology we have going on here.0 -
Your so right. I'm lost for words.!dennisn wrote:
Take it easy. You'll pop a blood vessel. It's tit for tat. You call someone a bum, I call you a loser. What's the problem in that? Don't tell me you're TOO GOOD to be criticized.Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
That is so obvious that we are all trying to work out which stage.mr_poll wrote:Just a thought thats not been covered so far - any chance Andy could of lost time so rule himself out as a GC contender and therefore allow him to break away in a mountain stage and win a stage for his team - could easily be preconcieved tactics. Let's be honest if he was still in the mix then the peloton wouldnt let him out of their sights despite the "I am riding this for Franck" quotes.
I am no expert but could seem a rational reason for yesterdays performance rather than the pop psychology we have going on here.
We need another week or so to see if his brother has fallen off and the best place to tactically make the move we all evpect.
Watch the PTP and see who gets it right.Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
bompington wrote:
Yeah, what a loser, I wouldn't settle for 2nd in the tour, would you?victorponf wrote:Bernardus 2º is the first of the losers
ROFL! Quite.
Anyone who comes 2nd in the TdF is not lacking in ambition. Period.0 -
Deegs wrote:bompington wrote:
Yeah, what a loser, I wouldn't settle for 2nd in the tour, would you?victorponf wrote:Bernardus 2º is the first of the losers
ROFL! Quite.
Anyone who comes 2nd in the TdF is not lacking in ambition. Period.
Anyone who rides the Tour is not lacking ambition*
* apart from Jan, clearly___________________
Strava is not Zen.0 -
i am sorry but how is he overrated? contador is a super awesome rider, look how well he time trials and climbs, he couldn't tt that well at Andys age and probably not climb aswell as Andy can now then either.
No one else could touch as or ac in the mountains this year, if ac had been investigated more in op and was not around you would all be raving about how he is head and shoulders above the rest, and you say he lack ambition, nobody in the pro tour lacks ambition or they wouldn't be there let alone one of the best gt riders out there0 -
ozzzyosborn206 wrote:i am sorry but how is he overrated? contador is a super awesome rider, look how well he time trials and climbs, he couldn't tt that well at Andys age and probably not climb aswell as Andy can now then either.
No one else could touch as or ac in the mountains this year, if ac had been investigated more in op and was not around you would all be raving about how he is head and shoulders above the rest, and you say he lack ambition, nobody in the pro tour lacks ambition or they wouldn't be there let alone one of the best gt riders out there
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he is a very good rider he just has the problem that at the moment there is one rider out there who is better than he is.
Would be nice to see him target a few other smaller stage races but I wish I was half as good as Andy is.
My only worry about him is I think after the final TT he thinks he has improved a lot and on the same level as AC now, or just behind. My feeling is that AC just wasn't on top form this tour and had a very bad final TT, hence less attacks in the mountains that before and the small margin of victory.
If AC gets back to his level of 09 the victory margin could be bigger in 110 -
I think he is currently overrated because many people felt (certainly this year that) he has/d more of a chance to win le Tour then is actually reasonable. i.e. people over - rate his chances! Pretty simple really and unsure why it is proving difficult to grasp.
In terms of overall cycling performance; he is not a good TT rider and very similar to Contador at climbing. During this year he had a fantastic chance mainly because of the strength and togetherness of his team vs the hotch potch last minute creation of Contador's. Now in hindsight we can say that Astana actually worked quite well together but it was still more shoestring than Saxobank even after the demise of Frank's involvment.
In the future Contador will be part of a better team with a better DS and this would suggest that his chances of being favourite are further improved. Actually as a consequence I do nto feel that Andy will be so over-rated in the future as I think Contador is a clear favourite for next year's tour.
What is far more exciting is how riders such as VDB and Roche perform over the next year to see whether they can move up the rankings into contention.0 -
I bet he is never going to win any TdFIf you like Flandes, Roubaix or Eroica, you would like GP Canal de Castilla, www.gpcanaldecastilla.com0
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plectrum wrote:What is far more exciting is how riders such as VDB and Roche perform over the next year to see whether they can move up the rankings into contention.
Do you mean Nicolas Roche?? He's a good rider, but he'll need a personal pharmacy to become a contender in the Tour.0 -
I think Andy is overrated. He is also knock-kneed and awkward looking on the bike. His style is far from graceful. A true champion should also look the part.
Sure he is very fast and a talented climber, but I don’t care that he has come in 2nd in the Tour, twice. It only proves he knows how to peak at the right time. And with the research and development and money behind him with his father and Riis, and the rest of the Saxo Bank team, this is to be expected. He is much like the Manchurian candidate.
Let’s break down his wins and see if we can make sense of this:
Luxembourg Wins - I consider these wins non major (fake) because of the small number of riders in competition. There were only 3-4 other competitors in the 2010 Time Trial event. That’s not a real bike race.
U-23 National Road Race Champion (2004)
U-23 National Time Trial Champion (2004)
National Time Trial Champion (2005, 2010)
National Road Race Champion (2009)
Real Wins:
Liège-Bastogne-Liège (2009) - The win should go to his team, who blocked attacks all day, keeping the peloton under control and basically spoon feeding the win to Andy. In 2010, he did not have the strength to defend his title and placed 6th overall.
General Classification - Flèche du Sud (2004)
Mountains Classification - Tour of Britain (2006)
1st Young Rider Competition, Tour de France (2008, 2009, 2010) – Again, very impressive, but I think we should watch for more well-rounded talents such as Tony Martin, Roman Kreuziger and Robert Gesink.
In comparison, Andy’s wins are dwarfed by Luis Leon Sanchez, who is only a year older but has many more prestigious wins to his credit.0 -
SeadooXP wrote:In comparison, Andy’s wins are dwarfed by Luis Leon Sanchez, who is only a year older but has many more prestigious wins to his credit.
That doesn't mean Sanchez is faster on a bike. Has a better attitude, easily. But as a racer, Andy only has one person to worry about.The British Empire never died, it just moved to the Velodrome0 -
Nice first post SeadooXP!
As for Frank's wins (not including Lux and TTT):
Stage 15 TdF 06
Amstel Gold 06
Stage 3 TdS 07
Giro dell Emiila 07
Stage 8 ToC 08 (good win)
Stage 3 Tour of Lux and the Overall 08
Stage 17 TdF 08 (Contador gift likely)
Stage 2 Tour of Lux 10
Stage 3 Tour de Suisse (very nice win) and Overall 10
For Andy, also include:
Stage 3 and 5 of Saschen Tour 06
Stage 2 Tour of Lux 09
Stage 8 and 17 of TdF 10
As an aside, this thread has some related info:
http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtop ... t=12709940
Agree that LLS is a much better rider to watch and has a huge amount of wins to his name (21 actual wins and GCs)Contador is the Greatest0 -
SeadooXP wrote:I think Andy is overrated. He is also knock-kneed and awkward looking on the bike. His style is far from graceful. A true champion should also look the part.
Sure he is very fast and a talented climber, but I don’t care that he has come in 2nd in the Tour, twice. It only proves he knows how to peak at the right time. And with the research and development and money behind him with his father and Riis, and the rest of the Saxo Bank team, this is to be expected. He is much like the Manchurian candidate.
Let’s break down his wins and see if we can make sense of this:
Luxembourg Wins - I consider these wins non major (fake) because of the small number of riders in competition. There were only 3-4 other competitors in the 2010 Time Trial event. That’s not a real bike race.
U-23 National Road Race Champion (2004)
U-23 National Time Trial Champion (2004)
National Time Trial Champion (2005, 2010)
National Road Race Champion (2009)
Real Wins:
Liège-Bastogne-Liège (2009) - The win should go to his team, who blocked attacks all day, keeping the peloton under control and basically spoon feeding the win to Andy. In 2010, he did not have the strength to defend his title and placed 6th overall.
General Classification - Flèche du Sud (2004)
Mountains Classification - Tour of Britain (2006)
1st Young Rider Competition, Tour de France (2008, 2009, 2010) – Again, very impressive, but I think we should watch for more well-rounded talents such as Tony Martin, Roman Kreuziger and Robert Gesink.
In comparison, Andy’s wins are dwarfed by Luis Leon Sanchez, who is only a year older but has many more prestigious wins to his credit.
sorry i forgot that no other riders aim to peak at the tour with a team behind them0 -
That doesn't mean Sanchez is faster on a bike. Has a better attitude, easily. But as a racer, Andy only has one person to worry about.
I didn’t say that Sanchez was faster on the bike. I just stated he had more prestigious wins which is a good comparison considering both started their professional careers around the same time.ozzzyosborn206 wrote:sorry i forgot that no other riders aim to peak at the tour with a team behind them
I didnt say that Andy was the only one peaking for the tour. In fact, he is better than most at that game. I just think he is a little over-rated, thats all. I'd like to see him win more races, but only time will tell (pun intented)0
