Where are Canyon and Focus made?
Comments
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Gazzaputt wrote:I love it a thread started about where two types of German bikes are made turns into a tirade totally off topic.
Typical Bikeradar.
Yes, but are they German?
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Thanks Greasedscotsman
I was about to get sucked into the off topic argument by comparing the £3,000 + Z5 monocoque frame to the circa £3,000 lugged EPS. But (and on topic) the sun is shining and I'm off out to give my German/Chinese Canyon its first spin !!0 -
Mccaria wrote:But (and on topic) the sun is shining and I'm off out to give my German/Chinese Canyon its first spin !!
OMG, not a German/Chinese bike? Do you have no shame? You make me want to vomit (mostly cos it's a nice sunny day and I'm sat in the office, rather than being out for a ride on my American/Taiwanese monocoque-ish bike...)0 -
Hi,
Read this topic with interest... We (Sabbath Bicycles) have always been clear that our manufacture is predominantly far Eastern (though for 2011, some products are European made) but designed, tested and QC'ed in the UK. In a cow shed just outside Macclesfield, in fact.
I can't recall the laws exactly, but we are, i think, entitled to describe our bikes as 'Made in England' because they are finished, QC'ed, assembled and graphiced here. But this would clearly be a little misleading so we've tried to emphasis UK design and engineering, which is 100% the case. It's frustrating when we see other, larger brands making claims about 'made in USA / XYZ European country' when we know that they aren't. I've been to factories in Taiwan and China and seen premium European and USA 'made' frames rolling off production lines. We found ourselves in a 'join in and mislead too, or make our asian manufacturing transparent and be subject to inferences of inferiority.' From a business perspective, its a tough one to call. We also noticed that frames made from metal - Ti, steel particularly, are subject to bias where Asian manufacturing is concerned. It's just preconceptions that are hard to alter.
The reality is, of course, that there's good and bad manufacturing the world over. One of the factories we use in China is at constant pains to point out quality of workmanship and labour skills, precisely because they expect that we're suspicious of their ability to meet certain standards. As a consequence, on paper at least, they have the highest levels of certifcations and QC processes we've seen, and they put them under our noses everytime we visit. I'm sure its the same for other high end producers outsourcing some or their production activity.
Greg0 -
Amazing how us mere mortals obsess over stuff that the elite cyclists of this world don't bat an eyelid about.
Can't recall hearing a pro ever saying he had to back off on an 80 kmph descent because his "Made in China" bike wasn't reliable enough, or that he lost a sprint stage because his monocoque wasn't as stiff as his lugged steed back in the garage.
Too many people are still caught up in the idea of brand superiority when it is irrelevant in most instances for most products priced similarly. They lose sleep worrying about the choice they are going to make, spend endless hours researching it on the net and then spend hours on forums justifying why they made the right decision.
A 2010 top 10 TDF rider who happens to be my neighbour told me that within the peloton there is no "bike envy", they all know that their bikes are much of a muchness. He says there is only one area where bike design still contributes a noticeable difference and that is with the TT machines.
For the record, I bought a Canyon CF SLX (with Dura Ace and Citec Aero 3000 wheels) for 2700 euros (normally 2995) in July because it is brilliant value for money - I'd guess it is at least 2000 euros below a similar spec'd bike from the other big players.
Gilbert seems to be doing ok on it as did Evans with it's predecessor. 0 -
Thanks to Greg at Sabbath Bicycles for his honest posting. This confirms the many stories i've heard about where stuff is made.
Worth keeping guys like this in mind when considering our next purchases.
I'd put Colnago in this bracket also. They made it very clear what frames were really made in italy and which ones were not a few years ago.0 -
Just ordering my new Canyon CF Evo 0
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Are there any Canyon bikes around £1500? Website is a bit of a pain to browse.Say... That's a nice bike..
Trax T700 with Lew Racing Pro VT-1 ;-)0 -
greg roche wrote:We also noticed that frames made from metal - Ti, steel particularly, are subject to bias where Asian manufacturing is concerned. It's just preconceptions that are hard to alter.
Can you elaborate a bit on this, are you saying that Asian manufacturing sees metal frames, Ti and steel, as lesser products than ones made from carbon?0 -
I also applaud Greg's approach.
I used to import Italian car parts. The quality did not match the brand image. The products were shiny and stylish but the work was in bringing shoddy manufacturing up to that required for a finished product. Antiquated employment laws in Italy meant there was a strongly unionised workforce, opposed to modernisation and having little pride in what it produced. Very reminiscent of British Leyland in the 1980s.
Just as the Jap car makers were investing huge sums into state of the art car plants in the late 80s and early 90s, so China and Taiwan are investing huge sums in composite plants today. The frames they are producing are of a quality that was unachievable a decade ago.
Some buyers will always go for the handmade, hand finished product, some will go for the computer stress analysed, precision cast products, that have the same characteristics in every unit.
There is no right or wrong and each has its own qualities that will appeal to the buyer. There is a massive price difference between the two, though.Boardman Elite SLR 9.2S
Boardman FS Pro0 -
OK. First ride complete on my German/Chinese Canyon.
First impressions ?
The bike's performance was as underwhelming and disappointing as pretty much all the other bikes I have ever owned, entirely due to the limitations of the idiot pedalling it. Even on the downhills where my excess weight should give me a natural advantage, the inclination to apply the brakes early meant the bike failed to reach its full potential.
Actually it was a really enjoyable first ride. Will need to do a couple of minor adjustments but I think this will be a fun bike for 2-3 hour thrashes around the Surrey/Kent hillocks.
For Father Jack - check out their outlet store on the Canyon website - seem to have some good prices for last year models or slightly spolied paint frames as long as you know your size.0 -
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greasedscotsman wrote:greg roche wrote:We also noticed that frames made from metal - Ti, steel particularly, are subject to bias where Asian manufacturing is concerned. It's just preconceptions that are hard to alter.
Can you elaborate a bit on this, are you saying that Asian manufacturing sees metal frames, Ti and steel, as lesser products than ones made from carbon?
I think he was saying there is a western perception that asian manafacturing cannot produce decent Ti/Steel frames... not that Asian manafacturers believe that Carbon frames are better.0 -
I read it the same as you Ben.Boardman Elite SLR 9.2S
Boardman FS Pro0 -
tigerben wrote:greasedscotsman wrote:greg roche wrote:We also noticed that frames made from metal - Ti, steel particularly, are subject to bias where Asian manufacturing is concerned. It's just preconceptions that are hard to alter.
Can you elaborate a bit on this, are you saying that Asian manufacturing sees metal frames, Ti and steel, as lesser products than ones made from carbon?
I think he was saying there is a western perception that asian manafacturing cannot produce decent Ti/Steel frames... not that Asian manafacturers believe that Carbon frames are better.
But why the difference between Ti/steel and carbon? Surely the perception, rightly or wrongly, is that Asian manufacturers don't make as good a frame as a western one, irrespective of it being made of carbon, Ti or anything else?0 -
I think it's because while some people are critical of Asian carbon frames they accept that they are well made in modern factories, but they'd like to believe that steel or Ti frames are 'hand made' in some way and that doesn't square with the big factory idea.0
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You only have to see the robot welding quality on HKS exhaust kit to see how good the quality of far east tube work is.
On a bike, with a ground and painted frame, why would anyone perceive the quality to be suspect? Especially when far east ali frames are accepted as the best out there.Boardman Elite SLR 9.2S
Boardman FS Pro0 -
Errr I though Honda had a factory in Swindon.
Anyway the issue is the bike says on the frame "made in Germany" so it should be made in Germany.
There are some very good factories in the far east but there are also a lot of very bad ones. Quality nearly always drops when production is moved to the far east but . . it's not always the case. Some companies just contract out their manufacturing to the lowest bidder and others take a different approach. I doubt any of the big names in cycling have quality issues as they need to justify their high prices compared to cheap supermarket rip offs made in . . . erm.. the far east.
The Focus website clearly describes a manufacturing process that takes place in Germany and the only clue to anything else is this line about "selected partners"
I agree entirely. If companies are not hiding the fact that their products were made in Asia, why not simply say "Made in China" on the product. Manufacturers will do just about everything possible to avoid saying that the product is not made where consumers expect it's country of origin is from.
Most consumers however have nobody to blame but themselves. Everybody what's the cheapest product, but they also want it to be made by their next door neighbor master craftsman. Can't have both. I'm willing to pay double (or more) to have made in USA or Europe, but don't try to fool me into thinking it's country of origin is the same as its HQ, when it isn't.0 -
I would like longer than 5 years, one month and 10 days to think about it0
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[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19722129#p19722129]Surrey Commuter[/url] wrote:I would like longer than 5 years, one month and 10 days to think about it
I dunno. I'm pretty sure half the posters in this thread are dead of old age by now. I'd hurry up if I were you.Faster than a tent.......0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19722129#p19722129]Surrey Commuter[/url] wrote:I would like longer than 5 years, one month and 10 days to think about it
I was doing a search and came across this thread. Sorry I didn't realize there was a time limit on giving an opinion0 -
what a great mind PeteMadoc had. It really is a shame.0
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What a fantastic thread - it's got everything...0
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[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19722129#p19722129]Surrey Commuter[/url] wrote:I would like longer than 5 years, one month and 10 days to think about it
I was doing a search and came across this thread. Sorry I didn't realize there was a time limit on giving an opinion
There isn't but if you are justifiably going to get a mild ribbing if you do it unknowingly (and, lets be honest, you didn't notice how old the thread was!) but sarcasm is a fair defence.
Cool avatar. Surely Bill is the greatest cartoon cat ever!Faster than a tent.......0 -
There's probably some obscure European directive that decrees you can put 'made in EU' on the product provided you can show that you add the highest value by adding some paint and screwing together a pile of parts sourced exclusively from the Far East and then putting it a big cardboard box?
Not just EU, but defined through the World Customs Organisation's "Harmonised system nomenclature".
For goods that are classified as "products having undergone a last substantial transformation" i.e. components bought from many countries and assembled somewhere else, the country of manufacture is defined as where they “underwent their last, substantial, economically justified process or working”. i.e a bike made of parts manufactured in the East and assembled in Germany is legally, "Manufactured in Germany"0 -
oops. Responded to the question earlier without noticing the history0
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Funny reading the earlier posts.
'Made in Germany' means naff all nowadays cheating feckrs 0 -
Guilty as charged. I posted before noticing the date of the original thread. I think comments are even more valid today though. Look at Conti and their new Asian factory. Another 'German manufacturer' turned Asian manufacturer (for the lower-end tires) :roll:There isn't but if you are justifiably going to get a mild ribbing if you do it unknowingly (and, lets be honest, you didn't notice how old the thread was!) but sarcasm is a fair defence.
Cool avatar. Surely Bill is the greatest cartoon cat ever!
Bill was awesome. So wish Bloom County would make a come back0 -
Funny reading the earlier posts.
'Made in Germany' means naff all nowadays cheating feckrs
Quote for truth
A thread revival isn't always bad, this was an interesting read..though not as illuminating as one would hope.
Sooooo...do Giant produce Canyon's frames?0 -
Maybe we could start a new thread entirely called "Where's it (really) made?" and note the manufacturer's name, product, and the real country of origin.0
