Where are Canyon and Focus made?

Chip \'oyler

Bar Shaker wrote:

My naked carbon far east frame looks better than any Ian could have made in Huddersfield or Dresden.

The far east factories are so well tooled up that no one could rival them in Europe. Vac packed, auto claved frames will always be better than hand made stuff from EU old school makers.

The same happened with windsurf boards 15 years ago.

Paint hides a multitude of sins (and filler and weave defects).

You ever ridden a handbuilt lugged made-to-measure carbon frame?

MrChuck

I think it's some percentage of the work that goes into the finished product (or possibly the value that the work is deemed to have added to it) that determines whether you can say it's made in Germany/The USA/wherever, and it's not as high as you might think.

Still, as others have pointed out it's no reflection on the quality of the product.

Bar Shaker

Chip \'oyler wrote:

Bar Shaker wrote:

My naked carbon far east frame looks better than any Ian could have made in Huddersfield or Dresden.

The far east factories are so well tooled up that no one could rival them in Europe. Vac packed, auto claved frames will always be better than hand made stuff from EU old school makers.

The same happened with windsurf boards 15 years ago.

Paint hides a multitude of sins (and filler and weave defects).

You ever ridden a handbuilt lugged made-to-measure carbon frame?

3mm here, 8mm there? No sorry, out of my budget for recreational cycling. But then we aren't talking about custom bikes for TdF front runners.

But even then, buy all the components for €400, adjust them to suit the rider being 32.25" inside leg and charge him €4,000 for the glued together tubes? Spray it up and hide the glue and filler?

I've never driven a Bristol either.

Anonymous

Bar Shaker wrote:

Chip \'oyler wrote:

Bar Shaker wrote:

My naked carbon far east frame looks better than any Ian could have made in Huddersfield or Dresden.

The far east factories are so well tooled up that no one could rival them in Europe. Vac packed, auto claved frames will always be better than hand made stuff from EU old school makers.

The same happened with windsurf boards 15 years ago.

Paint hides a multitude of sins (and filler and weave defects).

You ever ridden a handbuilt lugged made-to-measure carbon frame?

3mm here, 8mm there? No sorry, out of my budget for recreational cycling. But then we aren't talking about custom bikes for TdF front runners.

But even then, buy all the components for €400, adjust them to suit the rider being 32.25" inside leg and charge him €4,000 for the glued together tubes? Spray it up and hide the glue and filler?

I've never driven a Bristol either.

I have a top Far East frame and a top 'off the shelf' lugged hand made italian frame.

There's nowt wrong whatsoever with the far east one but the italian frame is sublime to ride.

Bar Shaker

In what way is the far east frame lacking, compared to the lugged one?

Anonymous

Bar Shaker wrote:

In what way is the far east frame lacking, compared to the lugged one?

Not as smooth or responsive.

(Cervelo S2 compared to Colnago C50)

softlad

NapoleonD wrote:

Bar Shaker wrote:

In what way is the far east frame lacking, compared to the lugged one?

Not as smooth or responsive.

(Cervelo S2 compared to Colnago C50)

to be fair though, you've only had the C50 for less than 24 hours, which is hardly long enough to make an informed comparison....

father_jack

NapoleonD wrote:

Bar Shaker wrote:

In what way is the far east frame lacking, compared to the lugged one?

Not as smooth or responsive.

(Cervelo S2 compared to Colnago C50)

Placebo? Some as home theatre, do a double blind ABX test.

Anonymous

I tried doing a blind test. It hurt.

Softlad, an hour was enough time to realise the difference.

The Cervelo feels a little more responsive to increases in power, the Colnago to changes in direction. The responsiveness may well be more to do with geometry.

The Colnago feels a lot smoother though. Like nowt else I've ridden. Not bad for something that cost less than a Planet X with Rival.

Both bikes have their merits.

As for Placebo effect, maybe. But it's enough for me. You could argue that for anything with a subjective quality (bikes, hi-fi, food/taste etc) is placebo. Within that 'placebo' people have their preferences too.

I find that placebo works the other way too, people who claim that something will make no difference will never feel/see/hear/taste one because they are so stuck in their mind that there will be no change. At the other end of the Spectrum some people are very open to suggestion.

inseine

I've just got back from Eurobike and I have to say I was a bit disapointed with Focus. They do some nice bikes, especially the city and mountain bikes but the quality of the carbon road frames and especially the paint which was a step below most of the competition.

Anonymous

inseine wrote:

I've just got back from Eurobike and I have to say I was a bit disapointed with Focus. They do some nice bikes, especially the city and mountain bikes but the quality of the carbon road frames and especially the paint which was a step below most of the competition.

Would love to have gone. Shame to hear that about Focus though.

father_jack

inseine wrote:

I've just got back from Eurobike and I have to say I was a bit disapointed with Focus. They do some nice bikes, especially the city and mountain bikes but the quality of the carbon road frames and especially the paint which was a step below most of the competition.

Did you see this one?

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/Focus ... 360049152/

Chip \'oyler

Bar Shaker wrote:

Chip \'oyler wrote:

Bar Shaker wrote:

My naked carbon far east frame looks better than any Ian could have made in Huddersfield or Dresden.

The far east factories are so well tooled up that no one could rival them in Europe. Vac packed, auto claved frames will always be better than hand made stuff from EU old school makers.

The same happened with windsurf boards 15 years ago.

Paint hides a multitude of sins (and filler and weave defects).

You ever ridden a handbuilt lugged made-to-measure carbon frame?

3mm here, 8mm there? No sorry, out of my budget for recreational cycling. But then we aren't talking about custom bikes for TdF front runners.

But even then, buy all the components for €400, adjust them to suit the rider being 32.25" inside leg and charge him €4,000 for the glued together tubes? Spray it up and hide the glue and filler?

I've never driven a Bristol either.

So you've never ridden one but somehow know that they are vastly inferior to your injection moulded frame :roll:

You really are talking bollox. All of the hand built lugged frames are available in naked carbon finish, so there is nowhere for the builder to hide.

My handbuilt Viner is so balanced that I can push it far further into bends and downhills, it gives me so much more confidence. In fact when I first rode it one of my usual downhill corners that I usually brake for - I took it full speed no braking. It is also a lot smoother, more comfortable and responds brilliantly. In short it is a far better frame than my previous moulded one.

I've ridden both kinds and can offer subjective experience. You can't so shut up.

inseine

Did you see this one?

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/Focus ... 360049152/


Don't think so because that's a 2010 bike and they had the 2011 range. What i didn't like is that there is a real step around the paint where they've masked it and nearly everyone else has smooth joints. Close up they're not up to LOOK or the like as you'd expect but I also thought CUBE was much better and have the same sort of range.

father_jack

ok thanks, any price tags? Gone up?

Bar Shaker

Chip \'oyler wrote:

Bar Shaker wrote:

Chip \'oyler wrote:

Bar Shaker wrote:

My naked carbon far east frame looks better than any Ian could have made in Huddersfield or Dresden.

The far east factories are so well tooled up that no one could rival them in Europe. Vac packed, auto claved frames will always be better than hand made stuff from EU old school makers.

The same happened with windsurf boards 15 years ago.

Paint hides a multitude of sins (and filler and weave defects).

You ever ridden a handbuilt lugged made-to-measure carbon frame?

3mm here, 8mm there? No sorry, out of my budget for recreational cycling. But then we aren't talking about custom bikes for TdF front runners.

But even then, buy all the components for €400, adjust them to suit the rider being 32.25" inside leg and charge him €4,000 for the glued together tubes? Spray it up and hide the glue and filler?

I've never driven a Bristol either.

So you've never ridden one but somehow know that they are vastly inferior to your injection moulded frame :roll:

You really are talking bollox. All of the hand built lugged frames are available in naked carbon finish, so there is nowhere for the builder to hide.

My handbuilt Viner is so balanced that I can push it far further into bends and downhills, it gives me so much more confidence. In fact when I first rode it one of my usual downhill corners that I usually brake for - I took it full speed no braking. It is also a lot smoother, more comfortable and responds brilliantly. In short it is a far better frame than my previous moulded one.

I've ridden both kinds and can offer subjective experience. You can't so shut up.

First, carbon fibre isn't injection moulded.

Second, I didn't say that hand glued bikes were inferior, but I think the advantage is greatly over played by people who don't want to feel they have been mugged.

Third, you are confusing design with manufacture. Your new bike corners better than your old one because it has been designed to do so. I would add that a bike with some flex will always corner better than a really stiff one.

Fourth, unless we are talking 1kg+ weight savings, I would be surprised if any improvement was to do with the frame. The most likely cause is that you are now using a set of very light high quality wheels. Centripedal acceleration forces are the biggest hurdle to bike acceleration.

Fifth, don't tell me I'm talking bollox or tell me to shut up, unless you are telling me this to my face.

Anonymous

Sounds like inverted snobbery to me.

Ride one then you can comment with credence.

zanes

Bar Shaker wrote:

Fifth, don't tell me I'm talking bollox or tell me to shut up, unless you are telling me this to my face.

Anonymous

Heh heh.

father_jack

I had a couple of those cases!

Bar Shaker

NapoleonD wrote:

Sounds like inverted snobbery to me.

Ride one then you can comment with credence.

Maybe but I still maintain that any one spending £2.5k on a frame is unlikely to put £300 wheels on it and the wheels will account for much of the difference in the finished bike's feel.

There is no question that having a bike made to measure is a nice thing and at the top level of sport it would be justified. But this can be the only reason for buying a lugged frame over a monolithic one. Otherwise, monolithic construction would not be the preferred process of Cervelo, Pinarello, Trek, etc and most other top carbon frame makers. That's because these companies have invested in the technology needed to produce monolithic frames. The resin holds the fibre in its shape and it is the fibre that carries the stresses. The material can be chosen and positioned to provide stress resistance in one direction and save weight in the direction where there are no stresses. The minute you dip the end of a tube into a pot of resin and stick the tube into another finished carbon component, you lose the whole ethos of what carbon fibre is about.

But its only the internet, so who really cares.

Anonymous

What if you try the same wheels on each bike as I have? And, for the record, I am currently using my Colnago with £100 wheels. I compared it with my Cervelo on the same wheels.

My bike wasn't made to measure. but the lugged construction means that 22 sizes are on offer (with Colnago anyway) as opposed to, say, 5. This means there is a much better chance of getting a perfect fit and this makes a bigger difference than anything else in my opinion.

My other bikes all fit well but when I first rode on the Colnago I couldn't believe how good it felt.

Chip \'oyler

Bar Shaker wrote:

Chip \'oyler wrote:

Bar Shaker wrote:

Chip \'oyler wrote:

Bar Shaker wrote:

My naked carbon far east frame looks better than any Ian could have made in Huddersfield or Dresden.

The far east factories are so well tooled up that no one could rival them in Europe. Vac packed, auto claved frames will always be better than hand made stuff from EU old school makers.

The same happened with windsurf boards 15 years ago.

Paint hides a multitude of sins (and filler and weave defects).

You ever ridden a handbuilt lugged made-to-measure carbon frame?

3mm here, 8mm there? No sorry, out of my budget for recreational cycling. But then we aren't talking about custom bikes for TdF front runners.

But even then, buy all the components for €400, adjust them to suit the rider being 32.25" inside leg and charge him €4,000 for the glued together tubes? Spray it up and hide the glue and filler?

I've never driven a Bristol either.

So you've never ridden one but somehow know that they are vastly inferior to your injection moulded frame :roll:

You really are talking bollox. All of the hand built lugged frames are available in naked carbon finish, so there is nowhere for the builder to hide.

My handbuilt Viner is so balanced that I can push it far further into bends and downhills, it gives me so much more confidence. In fact when I first rode it one of my usual downhill corners that I usually brake for - I took it full speed no braking. It is also a lot smoother, more comfortable and responds brilliantly. In short it is a far better frame than my previous moulded one.

I've ridden both kinds and can offer subjective experience. You can't so shut up.

First, carbon fibre isn't injection moulded.

Second, I didn't say that hand glued bikes were inferior, but I think the advantage is greatly over played by people who don't want to feel they have been mugged.

Third, you are confusing design with manufacture. Your new bike corners better than your old one because it has been designed to do so. I would add that a bike with some flex will always corner better than a really stiff one.

Fourth, unless we are talking 1kg+ weight savings, I would be surprised if any improvement was to do with the frame. The most likely cause is that you are now using a set of very light high quality wheels. Centripedal acceleration forces are the biggest hurdle to bike acceleration.

Fifth, don't tell me I'm talking bollox or tell me to shut up, unless you are telling me this to my face.

Tell you what. You can come round to my house and have a ride on my bike. Then I won't need to tell you you're talking bollox to your face cos you'll know yourself.

Bar Shaker

Chip \'oyler wrote:

Tell you what. You can come round to my house and have a ride on my bike. Then I won't need to tell you you're talking bollox to your face cos you'll know yourself.

Apart from the fact that it wouldn't fit, which is surely the point of buying a non monolithic carbon frame, I really see no need. You seem so sure of yourself so I have changed my mind and now I believe you.

Your bike is the best bike ever made. Really, it is.

Chip \'oyler

Bar Shaker wrote:

Chip \'oyler wrote:

Tell you what. You can come round to my house and have a ride on my bike. Then I won't need to tell you you're talking bollox to your face cos you'll know yourself.

Apart from the fact that it wouldn't fit, which is surely the point of buying a non monolithic carbon frame, I really see no need. You seem so sure of yourself so I have changed my mind and now I believe you.

Your bike is the best bike ever made. Really, it is.

Glad I could be of service

silverpigeon

stfc1

silverpigeon wrote:

That's brilliant

dcj

...Otherwise, monolithic construction would not be the preferred process of Cervelo, Pinarello, Trek, etc and most other top carbon frame makers

without getting over complicated, when there are different ways of making something, the choice of construction method is largely determined by how many the company plan to sell of each size/version/colour, and not so much the on road performance characteristics.

Parlee Z3, Crumpton SL and Viner Maxima RS framesets are constructed in house, in tiny numbers, are expensive, and generally considered to deliver superior ride and handling characteristics. None are monocoques - they use pre-formed carbon tubes and individually hand-laid carbon-wrapped joints.

as a general rule of all manufacturing processes, as demand increases substantially -a tipping-point is reached where hand-made quality control is hard to maintain, and the higher upfront investment required to tool-up for monocoque construction is offset by the ability to mass produce to a known level of quality every time.

as a nice illustration of how this works, Parlee make their exclusive Z1/Z2/Z3 frames by hand in the USA and subcontract manufacture of their lower priced relatively higher-selling monocoque Z4/Z5 models to the far east.

Gazzaputt

I love it a thread started about where two types of German bikes are made turns into a tirade totally off topic.

Typical Bikeradar.

Anonymous

Gazzaputt wrote:

I love it a thread started about where two types of German bikes are made turns into a tirade totally off topic.

Typical Internet.

Fixed for you.