RLJ - don't do it

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  • No, peds and cyclists are alike, cyclists and motor vehicles are most definitely not. Cycles are essentially faster moving, wheeled pedestrians.

    +1

    Get them off our roads, they should be in segegrated cycle lanes.
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • BTW, the City Police appear to be having another revenue generating exercise... Sorry I mean crack down on RLJ-ing cyclists at the moment, so watch out everyone...
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  • W1
    W1 Posts: 2,636
    BTW, the City Police appear to be having another revenue generating exercise... Sorry I mean crack down on RLJ-ing cyclists at the moment, so watch out everyone...

    Good. No need to watch out if you don't RLJ....
  • Dudu
    Dudu Posts: 4,637
    MrChuck wrote:
    Using arguments that you know better than the law is no different from speeding motorists justifying why they should be allowed to exceed the speed limit (because they "know better", "are better drivers than other people", etc).

    +1 to this


    Fine Headhuunter - you can RLJ, because you only do it when it is considerate and you are a good cyclist. And that bloke following you on the Litespeed can RLJ, because you do and because he has a nice bike and is a proper cyclist and is only going a little bit faster than you. And that bloke behind him can, he is on a specialised and going a little bit faster than that and he is going a bit closer to the car and that pedestrian, but its still safe. And that bloke on the BSO, well, he's going really quick and skimming the ped, but he's never had an accident in 10 years of commuting, so he's got to be safe too.

    Don't be a fool. There is a subjective test - is there a red light? and there is an objective test - which is impossible to police.

    And this. All this stuff about the law being an ass, and competent adults being able to make their own decisions is fine, but traffic lights, speed limits, protocol at roundabouts etc. all exist because people are often not capable of exercising good judgment. Yet at the same time everyone thinks they are the exception, that they shouldn't have to follow the rules like those other sheep, and it's those other idiots that cause the problems.

    +1Just like all those members of the Association of Bad Drivers who think that speed limits are an irrelevance (and speed cameras are there to collect money) and that drivers should be able to judge how fast is safe, rather than obey the law like the rest of us.
    ___________________________________________
    People need to be told what to do so badly they'll listen to anyone
  • mroli
    mroli Posts: 3,622
    Notsoblue - its not hatred, at least on my behalf, it is a desire for road use (which has its own inherent dangers) to be as safe as possible. I want everyone to obey the rules of the road - pedestrians/car owners/van drivers/cyclists/motorcyclists, everyone.

    I don't want people to grab pitchforks, I don't want people to start a Facebook Group - but I had an experience today at the big roundabout at the end of the Mall where a cyclist merged into traffic through a red, indicated right and moved through traffic and jumped a red light where peds were crossing behind them. I caught up (just through general riding) and said that he should not RLJ (politely), we then had a conversation going down the Mall where he indicated that he had been riding for 20 years in London, never had an accident and he was using his own discretion and and experience in judging when to RLJ safely.

    As I said - if one of the peds had dropped something and stopped, he would have hit them (probably), he also merged and cut across traffic emerging from a red light causing them to brake/allow them out. Now I'm not saying these are the most heinous crimes in the world, but his judgement was such that those manouvres were safe, I thought they were dangerous and inconsiderate. Who is right?

    Again - objective v subjective.
  • http://www.fansonline.net/middlesbrough/mb/view.php?id=2092128

    As seen in the 'cyclist bating' thread. This illustrates pretty much perfectly the point I was trying to make earlier. It only takes one person to misjudge it, and it all goes wrong.

    And no, I don't get frothy at the mouth at this kind of thing, it just invokes a mild eye-rolling. And a mild bit of effort to catch up again before the next lights.
    FCN - 10
    Cannondale Bad Boy Solo with baggies.
  • notsoblue
    notsoblue Posts: 5,756
    edited September 2010
    mroli wrote:
    Notsoblue - its not hatred, at least on my behalf, it is a desire for road use (which has its own inherent dangers) to be as safe as possible. I want everyone to obey the rules of the road - pedestrians/car owners/van drivers/cyclists/motorcyclists, everyone.

    I don't want people to grab pitchforks, I don't want people to start a Facebook Group - but I had an experience today at the big roundabout at the end of the Mall where a cyclist merged into traffic through a red, indicated right and moved through traffic and jumped a red light where peds were crossing behind them. I caught up (just through general riding) and said that he should not RLJ (politely), we then had a conversation going down the Mall where he indicated that he had been riding for 20 years in London, never had an accident and he was using his own discretion and and experience in judging when to RLJ safely.

    As I said - if one of the peds had dropped something and stopped, he would have hit them (probably), he also merged and cut across traffic emerging from a red light causing them to brake/allow them out. Now I'm not saying these are the most heinous crimes in the world, but his judgement was such that those manouvres were safe, I thought they were dangerous and inconsiderate. Who is right?

    Again - objective v subjective.

    I agree with you, that does sound dangerous and inconsiderate. And I don't think anyone in this thread is (or should be) defending that kind of riding. I've seen very experienced cyclists (couriers etc...) that ride this way for the thrill of it as much as the convenience, and I wouldn't endorse that. But these cyclists are in a minority from my experience, even in London. I'm reluctant to comment on how dangerous these cyclists actually are, but I'd suggest that their perceived threat is way way greater than their actual to other road users. Though I'd imagine most of the "But what will drivers think of us?!" crowd would think that was bad enough.

    Most cyclists I see that go through red are pootling along at 10-15mph on their town bikes, mudguarded upright hybrids, BSOs etc... And then its mostly just on quiet junctions. You just don't see Cyclists ploughing through busy crossings.

    Theres a crackdown on RLJ in London at the moment. I saw three cyclists stopped this morning at various junctions by bike mounted police officers. They all looked like pootlers, and tbh, I don't see what harm they were doing. Campaigns to stop RLJs don't save lives, or objectively make the roads safer. They're just there because people are breaking the law, and this must be stopped to prevent society from sliding into lawless chaos and anarchy.

    The chap you encountered this morning will keep on riding the way he does regardless of efforts by the police, or public opinion. He'll continue to reinforce the cyclist stereotype to narrow minded morons. Theres nothing that can be done about people like that, or those who use them as justification for their hateful prejudice. And this is why I disagree so vehemently with others on this forum that go on and on and on constantly about the bad example cyclists who RLJ set.

    People will be anti-cyclist, whether we RLJ or not.

    Edit: And I'm not going self flagellate because other members of a very disperse group misbehave. They don't represent me. And anyone who thinks they do is an idiot (imho).
  • notsoblue
    notsoblue Posts: 5,756
    http://www.fansonline.net/middlesbrough/mb/view.php?id=2092128

    As seen in the 'cyclist bating' thread. This illustrates pretty much perfectly the point I was trying to make earlier. It only takes one person to misjudge it, and it all goes wrong.

    And no, I don't get frothy at the mouth at this kind of thing, it just invokes a mild eye-rolling. And a mild bit of effort to catch up again before the next lights.

    I think the first response to that post could have been the same if the OP had been "While driving to work this morning, I had to slow down and carefully overtake a cyclist.".
  • Greg T
    Greg T Posts: 3,266
    Anyone smell ammonia?
    Fixed gear for wet weather / hairy roadie for posing in the sun.

    What would Thora Hurd do?
  • Quite. I spoke to the police once about RLJ-ing and whilst I can see that they have to uphold the law and are doing their jobs, they would get far more "bang for their buck" in terms of safety by upholding ASL boxes and making motorists more aware of cyclists. Perhaps I am being cynical but every now and then the City Police seems to have a crack down on cyclists however I never, ever see similar crackdowns on motorists in ASLs, motorists driving with phones etc. I have seen cyclists pulled over plenty of times but I could probably count the number of times I have seen a motorist pulled overin 4 years on 1 hand. I actually asked why this was and was told that it's very difficult to stop motorists as a police officer on foot, so essentially cyclists are a soft, easy to stop, revenue generating target.
    Do not write below this line. Office use only.
  • Paul E
    Paul E Posts: 2,052
    I was shouted at/sworn at quite strongly by a black cab driver cause I had the nerve to have to put my bike in front of him as he had covered the entire ASL, so I put my bike where I felt safest and where I would be seen as it was at night.

    I think the I was called a "Do you want an arguement do you, F#cking w#nker, ohh you are one of those militants are you", blah blah and the first part again a few times while literally hanging out of his window.

    then as he drove by he said something like "sorry I'm on the road"

    I never said a word back, I just shock my head when the abuse started.

    I do have the number plate memorised but I haven't done anything about a complaint or anything, but he tecnically ran the red light (tooley street for reference) and I all I got was abuse for putting myself in a safe visible position that didn't hold him up at all.
  • rhext
    rhext Posts: 1,639
    Seems to me that red lights were only ever necessary to stop motor vehicles from banging into each other, and to give other road users a chance. Given this, is it any wonder that some people think they're not really applicable to them?
  • Even Boris Bike users complain about RLJ http://www.borisbikes.co.uk/topic.php?id=262#post-2168
  • W1
    W1 Posts: 2,636
    Even Boris Bike users complain about RLJ http://www.borisbikes.co.uk/topic.php?id=262#post-2168

    "full lycra gimp style outfits" - I wonder who of the pro-RLJ brigade on here meet that description!
  • notsoblue
    notsoblue Posts: 5,756
    Even Boris Bike users complain about RLJ http://www.borisbikes.co.uk/topic.php?id=262#post-2168

    So many people posting about being the only one stopped at lights.
  • Red lights. Illegal to go through them.
    They are there to allow the continual flow of all road users.

    That said, *most* traffic lights are aimed at vehicles, and may not be perfectly suitable for cyclists.

    I do not RLJ, no matter the time of day or night or no matter how busy or quiet the roads are. There is just no need for it....

    However, the only time I would do it, is for safety, pure and simple. There is one ped xing ahead of lights that I sometimes go through at red so that I can gain primary on the outside lane to allow me to get safely into the middle right turning after the lights.

    That is all. Don't do it!! (unless there is a safety issue)
    "Encyclopaedia is a fetish for very small bicycles"
  • _Brun_
    _Brun_ Posts: 1,740
    Has this been resolved yet?
  • _Brun_ wrote:
    Has this been resolved yet?

    No, but I reckon if everyone re-states their personal view a few more times, and perhaps supplies some supporting anecdotes, it will be.
  • lost_in_thought
    lost_in_thought Posts: 10,563
    edited September 2010
  • jonginge
    jonginge Posts: 5,945
    _Brun_ wrote:
    Has this been resolved yet?
    Nope, and Godwin was invoked waaay back on page 3, too. Do people not respect conventions these days? Tchah!
    FCN 2-4 "Shut up legs", Jens Voigt
    Planet-x Scott
    Rides
  • Even Boris Bike users complain about RLJ http://www.borisbikes.co.uk/topic.php?id=262#post-2168

    Heh. It even makes us look bad to people trying out cycling (although the whole 'gimp suit' thing is a little harsh, I've seen many non-lycra people RLJ). Why do we give people another reason to dislike us (as well as the whole why are we on the road in the first place/we don't pay 'road tax'/we have no training/insurance things)?

    As for the police stopping us doing it, well, given our precarious position in the middle of fast moving tonnes of metal in the road, I think that the people who are most likely to come to harm (pedestrians crossing over notwithstanding) is ourselves, so in terms of general road safety yes I do wish they'd pay more attention to motorists ignoring ASLs etc.

    And reading all of this, I've come to a realisation. Yes, I don't like other cyclists RLJing, but reading this thread isn't going to change their minds. However, the reason I personally don't do it, is because I don't want to get hit by a truck that I didn't see (because I'm not perfect) or that didn't see me (because we all know they're not perfect) and assumed the road would be clear because he had a green light.
    FCN - 10
    Cannondale Bad Boy Solo with baggies.
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    If you RLJ on an empty road and there is no one around to see it, is it OK?

    Oh, and the tree doesn't make a sound.
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • _Brun_ wrote:
    Has this been resolved yet?

    One day we will resolve helmets, rlj, and ITB's gender issues in one fell swoop.
  • There is always an empty ped crossing at the bottom of the moral high ground, it just makes stopping that little bit more beautiful 8)
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  • _Brun_ wrote:
    Has this been resolved yet?

    One day we will resolve helmets, rlj, and ITB's gender issues in one fell swoop.

    That's seriously asking a lot...
    Le Cannon [98 Cannondale M400] [FCN: 8]
    The Mad Monkey [2013 Hoy 003] [FCN: 4]
  • DonDaddyD wrote:
    If you RLJ on an empty road and there is no one around to see it, is it OK?

    Oh, and the tree doesn't make a sound.

    Watch out for the Whispering Grass.....
    "Encyclopaedia is a fetish for very small bicycles"
  • DonDaddyD wrote:
    If you RLJ on an empty road and there is no one around to see it, is it OK?

    Oh, and the tree doesn't make a sound.

    Watch out for the Whispering Grass.....

    who's to say it ain't an ent and now its really grumpy at seeing you do that...
    Le Cannon [98 Cannondale M400] [FCN: 8]
    The Mad Monkey [2013 Hoy 003] [FCN: 4]
  • Hi, i'm new here but i read the commuting forum from time to time and was struck by this discussion.

    I've cycled in london for the last 7 years and came to the following conclusions:
    -some drivers will ALWAYS give you a hard time, RLJing or not.
    -RLJing does reduce commute time significantly
    -90% of the traffic lights in london are useless, i.e. NO ONE is moving!
    -EVERYONE disobeys traffic laws, it's impossible not to. The most blatent example is speeding. It seems that it's ok for a car to drive at 35mph (in a 30mph zone) but it isn't for cycles to RLJ. Both are against the law yet one is deemed more outrageous. When cars decide to obey ALL the traffic laws then I will do the same. In the end they are the ones who pass the test etc... so they should set the example.
    -Also, as a motorbike rider, i actually prefer when cyclist RLJ (if it's safe for them to do so) because i can then accelerate away from cars more safely. I'm guessing many drivers also share this opinion.
    -Finally, to me commuting should be done so that it doesn't block others nor injure them. There are many instances when cyclists or motorists obey the law yet cause traffic jams (e.g. when a car decides to turn right but doesn't leave enough room for the traffic behind to proceed thus creating a traffic jam - legal but stupid) or become a danger to themselves or others. RLJing, if done properly, is safe AND faster...SCORE!

    i apologize in advance for any offense i might have caused. this is not my intention, this message simply reflects my opinion on this matter and i hope that it will lead to constructive feedbacks/criticism [/list]
  • supersonic
    supersonic Posts: 82,708
    RLJing, if done properly, is safe AND faster...SCORE!

    Many would say that being on the phone is while driving, or doing 50mph in a 40 zone (That reduces time too) is safe... If done properly ;-). Or to be honest many other things that are against the law.

    The laws aren't perfect, I agree, but in the majority they do work. I think if people feel strongly for pro RLJing then they should do something about it. Write to you local MP maybe?

    I think each issue has its own discussion and for laws to change constructive discussion needs taking to a higher level. Not always easy though. My opinion is that breaking them may not be the step to get them change, and puts cyclists as a group in a bad light.

    Speaking of groups:
    It seems that it's ok for a car to drive at 35mph (in a 30mph zone)

    ... you can break down car users quite often. Just as much as bikers can be steroetyped we have women drivers, taxi drivesr, BMW drivers, works vehicles, white vans etc, all that many of us have a go at for certain traits. So I can't say that car drivers as a whole get it easy when fingers are pointed.
  • Many would say that being on the phone is while driving, or doing 50mph in a 40 zone (That reduces time too) is safe... If done properly ;-). Or to be honest many other things that are against the law.

    Yep, speeding can be safe in certain places and personally i have nothing against it. However talking on the phone whilst driving is dangerous simply because the driver is no longer 100% focused. The majority of accidents are caused by distractions (oh and btw this is a fact, it's a shame that i can't find the exact figure), NOT by speeding and likewise NOT by RLJing.
    I think each issue has its own discussion and for laws to change constructive discussion needs taking to a higher level. Not always easy though. My opinion is that breaking them may not be the step to get them change, and puts cyclists as a group in a bad light.

    i agree with taking it to a higher level. Wasn't Bories attempting to allow left turns at red lights for cyclists? does anyone know what happened to that proposal?

    also in your post you mentioned that RLJing gives cyclists a bad name. I really wish that was the case. Unfortunately after 2 months of trying to be a perfect cyclist, cars still brushed past me when the lights turned green. I failed to notice any form of improvement. I really admire u lot stopping at all the red lights, i tried to do that but had to give up in the end when someone on a mountain bike was constantly overtaking me at the lights despite being clearly slower than me on the straights (guess i've got an extreme form of SCR!).