Real Commuters

rjsterry

I guarantee you'll win that one.

notsoblue

I think Ndru has a point. But its mainly about the differences between the way people use bikes in the UK and in Holland, Denmark, Belgium etc...

Most of us here are bicycle hobbyists, investing in decent bikes, riding clipless, having at least some lycra etc and we'll always be in a minority. Just like similar cyclists in countries like NL are in the minority. The vast majority of people who commute there do so in their work clothes, on basic city bikes.

So (if I understood Ndru correctly) he was saying that we aren't "real commuters" at all because we take it far too seriously. And I'd accept that. I love cycling, I love bikes and I love cycling at pace, so what to most people would be the perceived hassle of bike maintenance, cycle specific clothing, changing at work etc... is for me just what is necessary to enable me to enjoy an activity I love.

Because "real commuting" (Ndru's definition) is so rare in this country and its mainly "hobbyists" that are seen to be commuting, most people just can't be bothered, so drive or use PT.

jimmypippa

Greg T wrote:

This is a typical commuter

No, that is an atypical communter.

wgwarburton

notsoblue wrote:

I think Ndru has a point. But its mainly about the differences between the way people use bikes in the UK and in Holland, Denmark, Belgium etc...

Most of us here are bicycle hobbyists, investing in decent bikes, riding clipless, having at least some lycra etc and we'll always be in a minority. Just like similar cyclists in countries like NL are in the minority. The vast majority of people who commute there do so in their work clothes, on basic city bikes.

So (if I understood Ndru correctly) he was saying that we aren't "real commuters" at all because we take it far too seriously. And I'd accept that. I love cycling, I love bikes and I love cycling at pace, so what to most people would be the perceived hassle of bike maintenance, cycle specific clothing, changing at work etc... is for me just what is necessary to enable me to enjoy an activity I love.

Because "real commuting" (Ndru's definition) is so rare in this country and its mainly "hobbyists" that are seen to be commuting, most people just can't be bothered, so drive or use PT.

To a large extent I agree that this is a problem... I'm not convinced that promoting heavy steel roadsters is an appropriate response, though.

As LiT stated, many people perceive cycling as dangerous. Riding a slow, heavy bike which prevents you from integrating with the traffic accentuates this, so there's a chicken & egg situation where there arn't enough cyclists (a critical mass) to let riders of these machines feel safe.
In Oxford & Cambridge that critical mass exists. I suppose it's just possible that the Bojobike will recreate the same situation in central London.

Cycling will only become a natural choice for many if people feel that they can pootle about in safety... this is what cycle-paths and lanes are supposed to achieve, after all, but they fail spectacularly in the sort of dense urban environment where it isn't possible to avoid conflicts with other traffic.

Cheers,
W.

Clever Pun

MonkeyMonster wrote:

ndru wrote:

The fitter you are, the less you sweat.

Can I ask where you picked up this bit of information?

I can give you a perfect example where the opposite is true - me.

AND I can offer a bit of biological evidence to support my counter claim - the fitter and more trained you are - the faster you will begin to sweat because your body is used to you working hard and starts to try stopping you overheating sooner than when you trained less - and likely were less fit.

That makes sense to me. Please can I get the source of you sweat less though...

while what you're saying is true, you sweat like a freak, that gallon coming out of your helmet cushioning was just so damn wrong

Clever Pun

MonkeyMonster wrote:

Hmmm, we might have to see who can drink more in the Morpeth... RJS

I'm in

notsoblue

WGWarburton wrote:

In Oxford & Cambridge that critical mass exists. I suppose it's just possible that the Bojobike will recreate the same situation in central London.

Cycling will only become a natural choice for many if people feel that they can pootle about in safety... this is what cycle-paths and lanes are supposed to achieve, after all, but they fail spectacularly in the sort of dense urban environment where it isn't possible to avoid conflicts with other traffic.

Indeed. I think the Bojobikes will do wonders for cycling in London. Thousands of slow, unhelmeted cyclists pootling around Zone 1 will slowly force drivers to be more tolerant and aware of *all* cyclists. I think the main reason why there is animosity towards cyclists from motorists is because they simply don't see them as belonging on the road. And its easy to have that opinion if "hobbyists" (for want of a better term) are an easily identifiable out-group. Those who ride Bojobikes will be "normal" people (who don't wear deviant lycra and look like they're going into combat) that will be easier for the average motorist to empathise with.

DonDaddyD

notsoblue wrote:

Indeed. I think the Bojobikes will do wonders for cycling in London. Thousands of slow, unhelmeted cyclists pootling around Zone 1 will slowly force drivers to be more tolerant and aware of *all* cyclists. I think the main reason why there is animosity towards cyclists from motorists is because they simply don't see them as belonging on the road. And its easy to have that opinion if "hobbyists" (for want of a better term) are an easily identifiable out-group. Those who ride Bojobikes will be "normal" people (who don't wear deviant lycra and look like they're going into combat) that will be easier for the average motorist to empathise with.

I absolutely disagree for the reasons fair weather cyclists have been criticised. You know the ones who tend not to have a clue about how to conduct themselves on the road, in traffic, give signals, stopping etc. (All "groups" can be criticised for this however).

The overarching point is that more cyclists on the road won't improve the situation. More competent cyclists will.

And that goes above and beyond what type, group or category of cyclist you can be listed as.

notsoblue

DonDaddyD wrote:

I absolutely disagree for the reasons fair weather cyclists have been criticised. You know the ones who tend not to have a clue about how to conduct themselves on the road, in traffic, give signals, stopping etc. (All "groups" can be criticised for this however).

All these issues matter much less if the road infrastructure is designed with cyclists in mind, and other road users are totally used to sharing their space with bikes.

DonDaddyD wrote:

The overarching point is that more cyclists on the road won't improve the situation. More competent cyclists will.

I see your point, but its a bit vacuous. How would we go about improving the number of "competent cyclists" if the very definition of the same implies that cycling competently isn't something that comes natural and requires experience and training? I don't believe that everyone who cycles should do so in the same manner as you or I do.

Its about making cycling the default choice of transport for journeys around town because its convenient and safe imo.

wgwarburton

DonDaddyD wrote:

notsoblue wrote:

Indeed. I think the Bojobikes will do wonders for cycling in London...

I absolutely disagree ...

yeah, we know...

The overarching point is that more cyclists on the road won't improve the situation...

Yes, it will. More cyclists = safer. Simple as that.
Cheers,
W.

rjsterry

Indeed, I'm quite looking forward to a 'Velowall' at the traffic lights, with all the motorised stuff just having to STFD.

Clever Pun

WGWarburton wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

notsoblue wrote:

Indeed. I think the Bojobikes will do wonders for cycling in London...

I absolutely disagree ...

yeah, we know...

The overarching point is that more cyclists on the road won't improve the situation...

Yes, it will. More cyclists = safer. Simple as that.
Cheers,
W.

I'm with buns on this and the bobike scheme is a great thing. if only from a personal standpoint that I barely have to take the tube again

jonginge

Someone's already tracking usage of the Boris Bikes:
http://road.cc/content/news/21340-resea ... oris-bikes
Consistent with a lot of (non-real) commuter traffic, apparently.

DonDaddyD

Fair enough i stand corrected :shock:

MonkeyMonster

Clever Pun wrote:

MonkeyMonster wrote:

Hmmm, we might have to see who can drink more in the Morpeth... RJS

I'm in

Like i'm gonna challenge the man who weighs a good half my body weight more than me...