Ow ow ow my knees

lost_in_thought

What gives, knees? Why so ouchy?

They're also very, very grindy. What's going on? Has anyone else had sudden-onset knee pain?

It's not that I'm mashing, no, because I've been doing that for years and years, and in fact this bike has a spinnier gear than the last one because I haven't changed the sprocket yet.

Is steel stiffer than alu?

I'm confused.

It started with the right (or 'weak') knee yesterday, and now it's both knees. Grrr.

mudcovered

lost_in_thought wrote:

What gives, knees? Why so ouchy?

They're also very, very grindy. What's going on? Has anyone else had sudden-onset knee pain?

It started with the right (or 'weak') knee yesterday, and now it's both knees. Grrr.

You are riding a new bike? Possibly there is some sort of really subtle difference in the bike setup that is upsetting your knees.

From personal experience having the saddle either a bit too high sets off the tendons around my knees making them tighten especially if I've run out of gears and I'm mashing up a hill. Takes days for them to let go once they have gotten to that point.

So perhaps check the setup of your new bike vs one of the ones that was comfortable before.

Mike

raymondo60

Only two things set my knees off into ouchy teritory

The fiirst is badly adjusted pedals. IF you ride clipless (I ride SPDs on my commute bikes) then that may be worth looking at.

Oh, and the other one is old age, but I don't think you have that problem somehow!!

Good luck x

MonkeyMonster

I'd go with the new bike syndrome too - you back to using cleats again yar? Might need to look at yer overall body setup me dear. Not that you wouldn't have already thought this of course but always nice to hear someone agree.

There is also that thing I keep being told that cyclists need to watch the muscle that goes up inside of leg from knee to groin? Cycling exercises the outside version but not inside and thus you can then start to really mess with the knee itself if you don't stretch and/or delib exercise the inside one... make sense?

davis

It's probably your pedals->saddle, or your feet->pedals interfaces.

What's changed? Shoes/pedals as well as bike?

Medders

I had a v similar problem. went for masses of physio - 3/4 mnths later my knees now at about 98%

does it hurt going up or down stairs?

Can you squat down and then stand without pain?

I had downstairs paid (v sharp had to stop and sit to let it pass) but no pain when rising from a squat. Physio said it was due to the fat-pad below the knee cap being pinched by the kneecap causing inflation which in turn led to more and more pinching. End up with muchos strapping (which I discovered I was allergic to) to raise the kneecap and anti-inflammatories.

If you have pain when rising from a squat apparently that is tendonitis.....

NB - no expert here just relaying what phyio told me.

jonginge

Change in setup is most likely.

Check the difference between the bowery and the new fixed. Saddle height, saddle setback etc. Using the same shoes, I guess, so cleat adjustment should be fine. What about Q-factor (sic)? I.e. Is there a difference between the horizontal spacing of the pedals between new and old?

Is the reach different? It could affect how hard your hip extensors are working...

MM has a point in that cycling doesn't train all the leg muscles equally which can lead to tracking issues. You do leg work at the gym, I assume, so that should be less of an issue...

il_principe

It's those ridiculous SPD Sandals you insist on using...

lost_in_thought

I don't do leg work at the gym any more, haven't for some time actually, but having had knee issues as a child I do exercise the muscle that MM was talking about, the one that opposes the quads.

It hurts going up and down stairs, but not doing squats.

And no, it's not the sandals. I've been using them for years!

I'll have to have a look at the new bike setup. The only recent change has been to move the saddle forwards slightly after it was pointed out to me that it was a long way back, but that was just after the commuting summer drinks so a good 3-4 weeks ago... you'd think it would have hurt me sooner if that was it... wouldn't you?

EDIT: And I've got the same shoes/cleats as I've had for some years, new pedals, but they're pretty much the same unless there's a massive difference between one-sided SPDs and normal SPDs that I'm not aware of?

I'm wondering if it's a difference in stiffness, the knee pain is not dissimilar to what I had when I rode the maxima with SPDs once.

jonginge

lost_in_thought wrote:

I don't do leg work at the gym any more, haven't for some time actually, but having had knee issues as a child I do exercise the muscle that MM was talking about, the one that opposes the quads.

It hurts going up and down stairs, but not doing squats.

And no, it's not the sandals. I've been using them for years!

I'll have to have a look at the new bike setup. The only recent change has been to move the saddle forwards slightly after it was pointed out to me that it was a long way back, but that was just after the commuting summer drinks so a good 3-4 weeks ago... you'd think it would have hurt me sooner if that was it... wouldn't you?

Large saddle setbacks suit some people and, anyway, it will depend a bit on the geometry of the frame. A 3-4 week timeframe could be possible as you've probably got an overuse injury. Where abouts on the knee is the pain?

lost_in_thought

It's really in the middle of the joint, and I know this sounds pretty stupid but it doesn't feel muscular. I've spent the last half hour sat on the floor of my office trying every stretch I can think of to see if I can make it worse, but no joy yet.

MonkeyMonster

lost_in_thought wrote:

It's really in the middle of the joint, and I know this sounds pretty stupid but it doesn't feel muscular. I've spent the last half hour sat on the floor of my office trying every stretch I can think of to see if I can make it worse, but no joy yet.

perhaps it is/was muscular but has now reached the point where its made a more structural impact and thus playing with muscles won't give you any respite?

take some anti-inflams and see if that helps then you *could* make a judgement its inflamation related, not muscular?

lost_in_thought

MonkeyMonster wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

It's really in the middle of the joint, and I know this sounds pretty stupid but it doesn't feel muscular. I've spent the last half hour sat on the floor of my office trying every stretch I can think of to see if I can make it worse, but no joy yet.

perhaps it is/was muscular but has now reached the point where its made a more structural impact and thus playing with muscles won't give you any respite?

take some anti-inflams and see if that helps then you *could* make a judgement its inflamation related, not muscular?

I don't understand.... how can it be inflammation bt not muscular?

Am I being blonde?

jonginge

Two pretty good articles (must bookmark these as I have to search for them each time)
http://www.bikeradar.com/fitness/health ... ance-17010
http://www.bikeradar.com/fitness/health ... rt-2-17445

I get ITB (heehee) problems when I ramp up training too quickly. In me, it's caused by muscle imbalance. Loads of stretching and some squats normally gets rid after a week or so.

Oh, as an aside, changing the pedals on the maxima will change the effective saddle height slightly. The stack height of the spds+shoes will be a bit bigger than for the speedplay+shoes combo.

UndercoverElephant

I get this problem with saddle setback issues. When you're on the bike and have your pedals at a quarter to three, make sure that the bit just below your kneecap (the fleshy bit that's probably hurting right now) is directly over the centre of the pedal spindle. Use a bit of blue-tac on some string as a plumb-line to check this out.

Adjust it with set-back and saddle height and you'll feel much better. Also make sure you're on the most used area of the saddle when doing this.

MonkeyMonster

lost_in_thought wrote:

MonkeyMonster wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

It's really in the middle of the joint, and I know this sounds pretty stupid but it doesn't feel muscular. I've spent the last half hour sat on the floor of my office trying every stretch I can think of to see if I can make it worse, but no joy yet.

perhaps it is/was muscular but has now reached the point where its made a more structural impact and thus playing with muscles won't give you any respite?

take some anti-inflams and see if that helps then you *could* make a judgement its inflamation related, not muscular?

I don't understand.... how can it be inflammation bt not muscular?

Am I being blonde?

loads of membranes surround joints - providing a level of shock absorption, lubrication, adhesion and lots of other weird and wonderful things. If these are irritated by 'odd' muscular action they can become inflamed and self injures/sits being angry until its told not to be so angry (anti inflams or just time with no further agravation etc).

That make sense? So the cause *was* muscular but [the bit that hurts] is now basically so irritated that playing with the muscles that caused the original issue won't affect the item that is now sore...

lost_in_thought

UndercoverElephant wrote:

I get this problem with saddle setback issues. When you're on the bike and have your pedals at a quarter to three, make sure that the bit just below your kneecap (the fleshy bit that's probably hurting right now) is directly over the centre of the pedal spindle. Use a bit of blue-tac on some string as a plumb-line to check this out.

Adjust it with set-back and saddle height and you'll feel much better. Also make sure you're on the most used area of the saddle when doing this.

Yeah, see, people commented at the summer drinks that my saddle was a long way back, so I moved it forward in line with the KOPS thingo. My knee is now where it should be over the spindle at the quarter to three position, and I had my housette check it for me.

Maybe I shouldn't have my knee over the pedal spindle... :?

When you say below the kneecap, do you mean below as in closer to my feet, or behind as in further into the knee horizontally?

'Cause it's the latter that's hurting.

lost_in_thought

MonkeyMonster wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

MonkeyMonster wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

It's really in the middle of the joint, and I know this sounds pretty stupid but it doesn't feel muscular. I've spent the last half hour sat on the floor of my office trying every stretch I can think of to see if I can make it worse, but no joy yet.

perhaps it is/was muscular but has now reached the point where its made a more structural impact and thus playing with muscles won't give you any respite?

take some anti-inflams and see if that helps then you *could* make a judgement its inflamation related, not muscular?

I don't understand.... how can it be inflammation bt not muscular?

Am I being blonde?

loads of membranes surround joints - providing a level of shock absorption, lubrication, adhesion and lots of other weird and wonderful things. If these are irritated by 'odd' muscular action they can become inflamed and self injures/sits being angry until its told not to be so angry (anti inflams or just time with no further agravation etc).

That make sense? So the cause *was* muscular but [the bit that hurts] is now basically so irritated that playing with the muscles that caused the original issue won't affect the item that is now sore...

Ahhhhhhh. So I was being blonde!

Could be. Have ibuprofen-ed.

MonkeyMonster

lost_in_thought wrote:

Ahhhhhhh. So I was being blonde!

Could be. Have ibuprofen-ed.

Not really Human body is chuffin complex and unless you've already been there and asked questions you aren't likely to know how it hangs together.

Good good - see how that goes for you. Otherwise might suggest an older bike that you're already set up correctly with for a week or two to let your system calm down...

Boy Lard

I had a very sudden and dramatic on set of knee pain on Saturday morning, when my bike threw me off and then chased me down a hill. Old knee injury made me aware it was still there by completely refusing to support my weight any more. Knees are bloody tricky, all those tendons and ligaments. I actually have less pain when cycling than when walking now.

MonkeyMonster

Boy Lard wrote:

when my bike threw me off and then chased me down a hill.

All that came to mind was a calvin and hobbes cycling moment

itboffin

I see no one has offered to rub them better for you yet....?

:roll:

Big Wib

MonkeyMonster wrote:

Boy Lard wrote:

when my bike threw me off and then chased me down a hill.

All that came to mind was a calvin and hobbes cycling moment

+1, Calvin & his bike always make me laugh.

Actually Calvin & Hobbes just make me laugh. The only problem I have is that my son likes them and keeps wandering off with the books.

rjsterry

itboffin wrote:

I see no one has offered to rub them better for you yet....?

:roll:

That'll be the splitting up of Commuting General - they'll all be looking in the wrong place.

Big Wib

kelsen

I also love Calvin & Hobbes, but does anyone else find it a bit disturbing that a six year old is already displaying such alarming levels of schizophrenia?

hells

You say there is a grinding feeling. It could possibly be chondromalacia patella. I have chondromalacia and it feels like you have described. It has gotten better by taking glucosamine and knowing when to rest, I have also pretty much jacked in running (my hips over rotate and my knees don't track properly) which was the main culprit for me. Changing the position of my saddle and cleats have also pretty much eliminated pain whilst cycling.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... 000452.htm

lost_in_thought

hells wrote:

You say there is a grinding feeling. It could possibly be chondromalacia patella. I have chondromalacia and it feels like you have described. It has gotten better by taking glucosamine and knowing when to rest, I have also pretty much jacked in running (my hips over rotate and my knees don't track properly) which was the main culprit for me. Changing the position of my saddle and cleats have also pretty much eliminated pain whilst cycling.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... 000452.htm

Ooooh interesting hells, I haven't had an explanation of the grinding before. It feels grindy from inside the knee, so to speak, and if I sit my fingertips on the kneecap as I bend and straighten my leg I can feel the joint grinding through my fingertips as well.

It's been like that for a while, but seems particularly grindy at the minute.

What did you do to your saddle/cleats?

EDIT: I should add, I've had problems in the past due to my knees hyperextending by quite a lot, and general hypermobility. Don't know if that's relaed but you did mention it in your post!

Norky

lost_in_thought wrote:

When you say below the kneecap, do you mean below as in closer to my feet, or behind as in further into the knee horizontally?

The first would be "ventral to", the second "posterior".

Anatomical terms of location

EDIT: My word I'm such an interesting person. Not.

dondare

Possibly your years of mashing have taken their toll.
Aluminium frames are usually built to be stiffer than steel frames because aluminium is less resiliant than steel, but I doubt if this is relevant here.
Slight differences in set-up can cause your knees to protest. It could be saddle height, angle or fore-and-aft adjustment or the position of your feet on the pedals. Clipless pedals can cause problems if the cleats are not quite right or the degree of float is insufficient.
Glucosamine, MSM, chondroitin, fish oil, celadrin, rose-hip extract and various other supplements can help reduce cartlidge damage and joint inflamation.

lost_in_thought

Norky wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

When you say below the kneecap, do you mean below as in closer to my feet, or behind as in further into the knee horizontally?

The first would be "ventral to", the second "posterior".

Anatomical terms of location

EDIT: My word I'm such an interesting person. Not.

So what does the fact that I found that interesting say about me? :shock: