Dan Staite
Comments
-
Well, he's made a name for himself if that's what he wanted!0
-
Pross wrote:Thing is where do you draw the line? In the amateur rank there's far more likely to be people using hay fever cures and the like which contain banned substances out of ignorance rather than a desire to cheat. Would you want them banned for life? It is sad that an amateur is prepared to dope at this level though, possibly hoping to get a pro contract? Having said that I think it's less serious than someone making a living out of cheating which as a by product is cheating clean athletes out of their living.
at some point you have to take responsibility..we all do
draw a hard nasty line in the sand someday soon would be my take..."If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
I'm more incensed about this than pro doping.
I'm a pretty cr@p TT'er and racer (often finishing last in races) I sincerely doubt that I could beat this guy if he was clean but he has robbed other amateurs of success and not even for the purpose of earning a living!0 -
Bronzie wrote:
Presumably this 2 year ban is just from competitive cycling - does that mean he's free to go back to rowing?Yellow Peril wrote:It would appear that Dan was a pretty handy rower.
As to his wins, well he's won a few TT's in the past. Does a ban by BC automatically transfer to a ban by CTT?
A ban applies to all signatories of the UK anti-doping code. So he could go back to concept 2 rowing as they don't have any rules, however not actual rowing, or triathlon or anything else that he's done in the past.
CTT automatically takes BC bans.
He can't even go on a club run with a BC affliated club unless it's a recognised "anti-doping" club run.Jibbering Sports Stuff: http://jibbering.com/sports/0 -
seeing as this thread has more posts than the amateur one...
I feel limited sympathy for Dan. You hope there was an underlying reason why he would do this rather than a simple desire to cheat other people and have a bit of glory.
2 years is right, I hope he comes out publicly now to say that he was wrong and he is sorry.0 -
Bronzie - I'm not sure how popular he would be amongst his rowing brethren:
http://concept2.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.p ... &sk=t&sd=ahttp://www.georgesfoundation.org
http://100hillsforgeorge.blogspot.com/
http://www.12on12in12.blogspot.co.uk/0 -
-
mididoctors wrote:Pross wrote:Thing is where do you draw the line? In the amateur rank there's far more likely to be people using hay fever cures and the like which contain banned substances out of ignorance rather than a desire to cheat. Would you want them banned for life? It is sad that an amateur is prepared to dope at this level though, possibly hoping to get a pro contract? Having said that I think it's less serious than someone making a living out of cheating which as a by product is cheating clean athletes out of their living.
at some point you have to take responsibility..we all do
draw a hard nasty line in the sand someday soon would be my take...
But surely it needs to start at the top down? They have to get the pros to point where they are setting an example before handing out life bans to amateurs as Yellow Peril wants. If amateurs see pros getting life bans then they are going to be less likely to try to imitate them.0 -
Maybe he just really, really wanted to win. After all, plenty of people are prepared to make a 'commitment' to their racing out of all logical proportion to the level they race at, from spending thousands on kit to jacking in their jobs to become a 'dole racer'.Kléber wrote:Without being too overboard, he must have self-esteem issues.
You can see why a pro does it, there's pressure, it's not unusual if others on the team are doing it, and there's money and a job at stake. But a local race? Something's not right there.
The use of Epo is what surprises me here: the abuse of amphetamines is hardly unknown, even at a divisional level.0 -
Pross wrote
"But surely it needs to start at the top down? They have to get the pros to point where they are setting an example before handing out life bans to amateurs as Yellow Peril wants. If amateurs see pros getting life bans then they are going to be less likely to try to imitate them.[/quote]"
Pross I don't think that amateur cycling needs to take its cues from the pro's. It should keep its own house in order. I think it would set a good example to the pro's if you couldn't get away with it at amateur level. Also you must remember that pro's aren't born pro's they start off as amateurs. Crush dopers and potential doping there would help clean up the pro peleton as well.0 -
Fair enough with EPO use but my main point is that it is too easy for an amateur to make a genuine mistake it happened in a race I organised - hay fever medication, unexpected dope control, 2 year ban - that's fair enough but a life ban would be too harsh.0
-
Would like to know how big the performance difference was?
I know it makes a difference to pros, but they're a little different, since they already have maximised everything else.0 -
How long is piece of string? To a large extent the benefits of Epo use depend on the individual's own response, as is the case with any drug. In the pro game a typical benefit whilst staying within the UCI's '50%' rule might be 5% - a huge amount at that level. For some the benefit could be even higher, especially if they are prepared to push the doping envelope. Sixty percent haemocrit anyone?Rick Chasey wrote:Would like to know how big the performance difference was?
I know it makes a difference to pros, but they're a little different, since they already have maximised everything else.
For an amateur the potential percentage gain might also be higher as they have not maximised their abilities so much. However, without the sort of medical 'management' that is common in the pro game anyone using more than a minimum dosage is probably risking death. That said Dan Staite may well be pretty professional in his doping control, having raced in the USA alongside people like Joe Papp.0 -
I'm just a dope, does that means I get banned from pub pool tournaments?
http://www.youtube.com/user/Eurobunneh - My Youtube channel.0 -
Pross wrote:Fair enough with EPO use but my main point is that it is too easy for an amateur to make a genuine mistake it happened in a race I organised - hay fever medication, unexpected dope control, 2 year ban - that's fair enough but a life ban would be too harsh.
No it isn't. Every competitive cyclist will have been made aware of the 100% ME website, the UKAD website, WADA plus other information on the BC website and in mail shots.
Ignorance is no excuse.0 -
It's easy to say that but as a 3rd or 4th cat rider who is feeling a bit unwell would you really look at the list before taking some medication? Would you know how long it will stay in your system afterwards? People are just doing it as a hobby at that level and probably don't even think about it. I know ignorance is no excuse, that's why I said 2 years is fair enough but a life ban for using the wrong type of hay fever relief would be too harsh for a first offence. I still think any harsher sanctions would need to be top down, the ones at the top are committing fraud / stealing by making money out of cheating. This case is different though, EPO won't have got into his system accidentally / through ignorance so yes a life ban would be fair.0
-
I agree, penalties for EPO or blood doping should be higher than for other types of doping. High crit is the be-all, end-all, it's so much more a performance-enhancer than popping some cold medicine or whatever. So make the punishment for the crime match the magnitude of the crime. The more performance-enhancing the dope, the bigger the price you for being caught. EPO should be a lifetime ban.0
-
By the way, anyone interested in reading up on the use of Epo by amateurs, and the expected performance gain, could do worse than looking up the http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com forum.0
-
Been around a few years, but the article on Outside magazine by a doping guinea pig is fascinating reading:BikingBernie wrote:By the way, anyone interested in reading up on the use of Epo by amateurs, and the expected performance gain, could do worse than looking up the http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com forum.
http://outside.away.com/outside/bodywor ... est_1.html0 -
There are bad tits in every social group... bet we all have a mate who shirks their round..0
-
A good article that also puts forward a powerful argument as to why doping control is important:Bronzie wrote:
Been around a few years, but the article on Outside magazine by a doping guinea pig is fascinating reading:BikingBernie wrote:By the way, anyone interested in reading up on the use of Epo by amateurs, and the expected performance gain, could do worse than looking up the http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com forum.
http://outside.away.com/outside/bodywor ... est_1.html
WADA is the logical response to an argument that gets aired from time to time: that since cheating is impossible to eliminate, the only recourse is to simply legalize everything—that way, no athlete has a hidden advantage over another, since everyone would be free to try anything that might increase endurance.
Like a lot of powerfully bad ideas, that one has a certain mad logic. But it would turn every sport into a test of how much damage an athlete was willing to risk to improve performance, and would basically force every serious athlete to cheat and risk his or her health. Athletic contests would have a strange life-or-death quality. If we don't keep drugs out of these events, they become freak shows, the athletes like gladiators—with us playing the role of decadent Romans, urging them on.
Besides, on a fundamental level, drugs ruin the simple joy of competition. With drugs in the mix, it's not about the athletes, it's about the chemistry.0 -
Pross wrote:EPO won't have got into his system accidentally / through ignorance so yes a life ban would be fair.
It wasn't only EPO - didn't they also find a a masking agent for steroids?0 -
Studies in untrained athletes have shown a 7-12% increase in vo2max, with peoples efficiencies being pretty constant, that would equate to a 7-12% increase in threshold power. Adding even 7% to Chris Horner's power up the Tourmalet would've had him climbing ahead of Schleck and Contador, 12% he'd've taken a minute out of them.
It's likely the difference is less in the pros, but that just shows how much more doper dan got out of it than a pro would've.
As well as increasing vo2max though, it seems to improve efficiency at lower intensities, more so than just proportionately to the increase in vo2max, so the benefits are even larger as you can pedal along in the easier parts without being stretched.
A 10% improvement in threshold is likely to make a cat 2 cyclist competitive in E/1/2 races it seems from power files I've seen (and from WKO's power profiling chart although it doesn't seem to match too well to UK cats)
Steroids and HGH and other drugs which seem likely to have also been used (the other drug was steroid related) would also enable more training and better recovery from hard efforts further increasing the benefits.Jibbering Sports Stuff: http://jibbering.com/sports/0 -
Rodrego Hernandez wrote:Pross wrote:Fair enough with EPO use but my main point is that it is too easy for an amateur to make a genuine mistake it happened in a race I organised - hay fever medication, unexpected dope control, 2 year ban - that's fair enough but a life ban would be too harsh.
No it isn't. Every competitive cyclist will have been made aware of the 100% ME website, the UKAD website, WADA plus other information on the BC website and in mail shots.
Ignorance is no excuse.
+1
It's easy to find out if what the doc has given you is banned. If you tell the doc you need to avoid banned products then he may be able to offer something else. I had some eye drops containing a steroid banned for in competition use the other month. I checked when I got home but to be honest I just used them and raced anyway as the quantity of active ingredient in 4 drops a day was so low, but that was my choice and I couldn't be bothered going back to the doctor. They certainly didn't help my performance!!
This can't just be a top down approach from the pro ranks, it has to be bottom up. Junior racers need to be educated and have it drilled into them just like paceline riding, race tactics, etc. etc. so it's second nature to question what medications are being taken.
I work with an Italian guy who was, by all accounts a top Junior. He didn't make the step up to senior amateur ranks as he was expected to dope and he wasn't interested. That was 15 or so years ago, but I can still believe that it goes on and pressure is put on younger (and Dan Staites case, older) riders to succeed at amateur level.0 -
I play second team rugby - does this mean i should 'roid up?
fooking joke, who dopes for a hobby.
idiot. :evil:0 -
schweiz and rodrego - have you misunderstood what pross wrote, or do you really mean what you are arguing?
he wrote that it is too easy to fail dope tests for it to be fair to impose automatic life bans on amateur athletes who fail them.
I think you may have missed the second bit of that argument (the bit that ties failure to auto life bans). But if you didn't, I'm pretty sure you are wrong. The WADA list is long. The system is set up using strict liability so that even people who are not cheating can fall foul of it if they are not careful. Perfect compliance with it is difficult and potentially health-threatening (it precludes some genuinely therapeutic treatments; ask J Vaughters for example). That compliance - which includes not doing things that aren't cheating - is a cost that pro athletes have to pay as part of their profession, and rightly so.
But if an amateur athlete gets a cold whilst they are on holiday in the USA and uses Vicks, unaware that it is formulated differently and containts a banned substance over there, your arguments have the result that they should face an automatic life ban from competing in sport. And that is total nonsense.
(To be clear, this has no bearing on Dan Staite's case which is a different matter altogether.)0 -
You wouldn't be the first, there's been quite a few players done at reasonably low level around here. Whether the roids are intended to help with the rugby or just part of their overall weight training / body image regime who knows but still sad I agree.0
-
avoidingmyphd wrote:schweiz and rodrego - have you misunderstood what pross wrote, or do you really mean what you are arguing?
he wrote that it is too easy to fail dope tests for it to be fair to impose automatic life bans on amateur athletes who fail them.
I think you may have missed the second bit of that argument (the bit that ties failure to auto life bans). But if you didn't, I'm pretty sure you are wrong. The WADA list is long. The system is set up using strict liability so that even people who are not cheating can fall foul of it if they are not careful. Perfect compliance with it is difficult and potentially health-threatening (it precludes some genuinely therapeutic treatments; ask J Vaughters for example). That compliance - which includes not doing things that aren't cheating - is a cost that pro athletes have to pay as part of their profession, and rightly so.
But if an amateur athlete gets a cold whilst they are on holiday in the USA and uses Vicks, unaware that it is formulated differently and containts a banned substance over there, your arguments have the result that they should face an automatic life ban from competing in sport. And that is total nonsense.
(To be clear, this has no bearing on Dan Staite's case which is a different matter altogether.)
I understand what Pross is saying about it being easy for an amateur who isn’t subject to the same stringent doping controls as elites and pros i.e. doesn’t have to make their whereabouts known, not subject to random testing at home or during training etc. to just buy an over the counter drug an not think what is in it and end up accidentally ‘doping’.
I also understand what you and Pross are saying and it is harsh and it does seem stupid to hand out life bans for what can all too easily be an honest mistake, but there has to be some ways of making sure that all involved take responsibility for an anti doping policy in all sports, not just cycling.
People will always try to cheat and gain and advantage, not just in sport. A lifetime driving ban for speeding at 40 in a 30 would be ridiculous, as would a lifetime ban for a vicks inhaler incident but there has to be a sufficient penalty to make athletes take more of the burden of responsibility of drug free sport onto the athletes, not on the testers. That is really my point.
If someone is racing, it means they take their cycling seriously. If that is the case then quickly checking the contents of medication is a five minute job that can avoid any problems. Like I said in my post, I had an eye infection and I put my eyesight and well being over the fact that the active ingredient in my drops were banned. OK, the quantity of steroid (1mg per ml) or about 0.08mg per drop was so small and locally administered for 3 days (12 drops), I doubt it would have shown in any test, but if I were really concerned that I might get a ban then I would have gone back to the doctor to see if there was alternative. If there was no alternative then I would still have used the drops but not raced.
As an aside, the rugby example that Pross also raises is a prime one. I played Rugby League up until 18 and there were some suspiciously big 17-18 year olds that bulked up very quickly once they were close to getting professional contracts. At that time, dope testing was non-existent. I note now that many pro RL players have been caught and banned over the last few years, I do wonder if the message is filtering down the ranks in that sport too.0 -
Some of these views are a bit draconian to say the least. If you kill someone in your car whilst drunk you don't get a life ban, yet some people would want an overweight 40yr old who races a few times a year in cat 3, band for life coz his hay fever tablets are considered a ped!! What next SIS drink?!
What a great way to kill off a growing sport.0
