SPD's power advantage....Myth?
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Bollocks. It has been studied extensively, and the results show that the professional rider's don't pull up.Uchiga wrote:yeehaamcgee wrote:Pulling up on the upstroke is balls. It's a psychosomatic effect.
I Cant Remember If You've Tried Clipless Or Not...
I have timed my jjourneys on a daily commute i have cycled what you could call time trials although not official just myself against my own stop clock and the differance is definatly there. I can shave off a minute over a mile on my singlespeed bike over platform pedals. Up hills i can now sit down and power up with clipless where as with platforms there was no two ways about it you couldnt physically do it sitting down. Ask anyone who rides professionally they will tell you that clipless does allow you to pedal upwards as well.
Actually try pedalling with one foot on a set of platform pedals. Then try pedalling with one foot with a set of clipless pedals. My point of pedalling upstroke with clipless pedals proven. Same with toe straps. Only toe straps arent as stiff and so you dont get as much on the upwards stroke as you do with clipless.
Here's the deal, which very few seem to accept.
Maximum power is when your entire weight is on the frontmost pedal. Even when technically seated, this means all your bodyweight on the pedal being pushed down.
You cannot ALSO pull up, since your body is supported by your legs.
It's like standing on a set of bathroom scales, then trying to grab the platform with your hands and pulling up, nothing changes.
If you ARE pulling up, it means you are pulling against the saddle, which means your weight is not fully on the front pedal. This is less effective than using your mass to drive the crank arm down.
What SPDs CAN do, is allow you to propel the pedal through MORE of the stroke than you can effectively do with flats. They also have a much more rigid shoe/pedal interface which means more of your pedalling force is actually transferred into rotating the cranks, and not squidging the soles of your shoes.0 -
You say more of a stroke... By that you mean all of the downwards and oh some of the upwards surely?
I know cyclists from Lougborough Student Cycling Club. One of which rode in the UCI World Cup Cross Country in Dalby. I asked her for advice on buying pedals her answer was Clipless you can pull up on them. Well that wasnt her exact answer but that was it cut short.
Also i know an Ergon 24hr Race Rider who for all intents and purposes is a fantastic rider he also said the same thing to me once. Every cyclist i've encountered in all the serious events have said that you can pull up on SPD's and they wouldnt go back to Platforms. I trust riders more the scientists on this sort of thing.0 -
No, that's not what I mean. I mean pushing the crank from very near vertical, just over the top.Uchiga wrote:You say more of a stroke... By that you mean all of the downwards and oh some of the upwards surely?
I know cyclists from Lougborough Student Cycling Club. One of which rode in the UCI World Cup Cross Country in Dalby. I asked her for advice on buying pedals her answer was Clipless you can pull up on them. Well that wasnt her exact answer but that was it cut short.
Also i know an Ergon 24hr Race Rider who for all intents and purposes is a fantastic rider he also said the same thing to me once. Every cyclist i've encountered in all the serious events have said that you can pull up on SPD's and they wouldnt go back to Platforms. I trust riders more the scientists on this sort of thing.
It's much easier to push the pedals forwards, and back on SPDs, whereas with flats, you're (more) restricted to pedalling downwards.
A ton of professional riders claim to pull up, but they do not. I can assure you. It has been analysed in some detail. Supersonic has a link to the study somewhere.0 -
Well it's whatever one believes really. I give up trying to reason with some people...0
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The book "high performance cycling" and an article I read a while back about pedalling style (framed as Lance armstrong (boo!!)'s) said that the technique to aim for was a kick forward and pull back style of pedalling rather than a definitive " pull up!" This was often described as "kick the door open and wipe your feet" To sprint you kick harder and wipe harder as t'were
Doing this on flats would be pretty difficult without seriously flexing the ankle every pedal stroke, hence why SPD's are more efficient for pedalling....
Does it matter of you re just winding slowly up the first hill of Glentress in order to pin it down the other side? probably not, If you re racing up a hill does it matter? Probably quite alot?
Pedalling more smoothly (not just more slowly) is thus easier as you re putting power down all the way around the pedal stroke (the pull back lifts your other foot over dead spot). It was also noted that the only real necessity with regard to pulling up was to unweight the pedal as it came up rather than pushing it up with the other.....We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Absolutely bang on.ddraver wrote:The book "high performance cycling" and an article I read a while back about pedalling style (framed as Lance armstrong (boo!!)'s) said that the technique to aim for was a kick forward and pull back style of pedalling rather than a definitive " pull up!" This was often described as "kick the door open and wipe your feet" To sprint you kick harder and wipe harder as t'were
Doing this on flats would be pretty difficult without seriously flexing the ankle every pedal stroke, hence why SPD's are more efficient for pedalling....
It comes as quite a revelation that someone here seems to know how to pedal.0 -
Cadence. And the word I can't quite remember at the minute. But it is something to do with that.0
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yeehaamcgee wrote:Maximum power is when your entire weight is on the frontmost pedal.
Not true, that's maximum torque, maximum power is average torque multilpied by cadence. I agree that you can only put so much force through the pedals at ant given moment since your mass multiplied by gravity is constant. However that only gives you you're peak torque (between 2 and 4 o'clock looking from the driveside), a 25 stone fatty with legs like matchsticks can put down more torque that Chris Hoy because he's heavier. However you can put down a lot more power by spinning a higher cadence and keeping your bum in the saddle, you're certainly not putting all your weight into the pedals then but you are putting out more power, that's where the advantage of clips comes in.
Riding flat pedals is soul destroying after being clipped in, it is slower and harder work. I don't understand why some people refuse to go clipped in, is it fear of being attached to the bike or wanting to be cool like dirt jumpers and downhillers?I had to beat them to death with their own shoes...
HiFi Pro Carbon '09
LTS DH '96
The Mighty Dyna-Sore - The 90's?0 -
Shaggy_Dog wrote:wanting to be cool like dirt jumpers and downhillers?
^ This0 -
Shaggy_Dog wrote:Riding flat pedals is soul destroying after being clipped in, it is slower and harder work. I don't understand why some people refuse to go clipped in, is it fear of being attached to the bike or wanting to be cool like dirt jumpers and downhillers?
Is it????
Having riden with clipless pedals on and off road for years I've recently switched to flats on my mountain bikes and I've not noticed any change in how fast I go - if anything I tackle the more technical bits quicker knowing that it's easier to stick a leg out for balance or dab a foot down...
On road, there's absolutely no argument (btw road pedals do have float and don't damage your knees), but off road it's much more a matter of personal preference.0 -
The original question was power advantage... in which case the answer is SPD's And it is no myth. I singlespeed and to get going on a relatively tall gear i can stick in a lot more power through clipless pedals than i can do with platforms. So much so i can get the rear end of my bike to lift up with the amount of power. Trying to do that with platform pedals is like bunny hopping. It takes a hell of a load more effot and you have to think about it more. Clipped in you dont have to think so much about bunny hopping.0
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Just repeating your opinion doesn't suddenly make it a fact.
Surely the fact that you have to faff about clipping in actually makes getting going harder with SPDs... As mentioned previously, maximum torque comes from a big 'ol downstroke which can be done on either system. On flats, you can get that second downstroke in more easily because you've got a better contact with the pedal...
As for bunnyhopping, if you talking about using the fact you're clipped to the bike to lift it up, then that's just poor technique.0 -
meesterbond wrote:As for bunnyhopping, if you talking about using the fact you're clipped to the bike to lift it up, then that's just poor technique.
I was once a devote platform rider i could bunny hop a foot in the air with platform pedals. Clipless pedals make that a whole load easier. Technique maybe wrong but its less effort and easier to perform.
And clipping in and out takes as long as it does to stick your foot on or off a platform pedal once youve been doing it for a while.0 -
If you are not winning prize money in races.....end of discussion. 8)0
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Mental Mickey wrote:If you are not winning prize money in races.....end of discussion. 8)
Funny you should say that. Local race Mud Sweat And Gears rode the Danbury Course Last Year with platforms didnt get on the podium. This year with clipless pedals i came third and was probably the youngest rider in my category not to mention i was the first Aluminium bike back. Oh and im riding with Alivio and Acera gears... Oh and i was also the first Scott back. Being on a Scott Aspect 45 i therefore beat quite a few people who had come up on there carbon Scott Scale 35's etc.
Yes Clipless pedals do make a differance there is no way i would have been that high up in the race with platform pedals0 -
Uchiga wrote:meesterbond wrote:As for bunnyhopping, if you talking about using the fact you're clipped to the bike to lift it up, then that's just poor technique.
I was once a devote platform rider i could bunny hop a foot in the air with platform pedals. Clipless pedals make that a whole load easier. Technique maybe wrong but its less effort and easier to perform.
And clipping in and out takes as long as it does to stick your foot on or off a platform pedal once youve been doing it for a while.
And Bunnyhopping and the rest takes no thought what so ever once you've ridden flats for a while.
Simply i find no benefits to riding with spd's the effiency thing is minor if anything, But the defecit for piss poor technique that alot of spd riders have is horrible.0 -
Thewaylander wrote:But the defecit for wee-wee poor technique that alot of spd riders have is horrible.
You're telling us that UCI World Cup Cross Country Riders have poor technique?0 -
We had this conversation before, pro riders are a minority.
And to be honest i have no idea how technically competent they are because all the world champ course is see on them have very few truely technical bits on them because they moan about them.
But certainly at trail centers at Cwm i see so many feet downs on the rocky rooty climbs for the SPD riders.0 -
Thewaylander wrote:And to be honest i have no idea how technically competent they are because all the world champ course is see on them have very few truely technical bits on them because they moan about them.
Have you ridden any of the world cup courses? I Havent but my Brother has at Dalby and i actually know a female UCI world cup rider. World cup courses are technical. Period. Some of them may look boring and un technical on the tv but once youve been there you will see how technical they actually are. Tree roots and rocks and descents and the list goes on.0 -
Actually there not really that technical.
Alot of the world cup DH course is technical. If you rode half the great trails in this area (not the centers) on the xc bikes they race on you would not be coming home anytime soon.
The course are set up to be wide and open in a lot of parts to allow overtaking and avoid bottle necking one of the sad requirements of having a feild of racers at the same time. the format of XC racing does not alloud for truly technical riding as discussed in the olympics threads.
This is not to say some of the rider are not technically superb but it is hard to see from racing.
I really don't care what people ride on, but the attitude that SPD's are best ner ner is really annoying, and i will point out that most riders on flats are forced to develope good pedalling and lifting technique for the bike which helps them greatly.
Where spd's you get to push fwd a bit and backwards as per the research.0 -
The racing in the UCI world Cup do have some singletrack that quite often a lot of the video cameras cant get to. In fact what i find annoying and what my brother told me is that in Dalby forest the best parts where the parts not shown on the video cameras because it was in the heart of the woods. The whole point of a world cup course is that it is meant to be 100% rideable. It just turns out that running in soem sections is faster than physically riding it which is why they get off there bikes and run. A lot of the XC riders will do downhilling and other forms of mountian biking to build on there technical skills and not just there fitness. Its the other way round as well Steve Peat on the Champery course on Sunday was commenting on how he sometimes does XC riding to help build on his fitness.0
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Exactly as i said, i couldn't comment on there technical skills, it is not showcased. and the bits you do see are not representative.
But my comments were based on my observation on local trails and my riding experience. I know alot of riders moving towards flats from SPD's these days as we have started pushing our riding to more aggressive levels, and they need to become technically better riders, this is how they have accomplished it.0 -
I went from Platforms to clipless... im a hell of a lot better technically now with clipless then i ever was with platforms. Clipless just makes you feel more (at risk of sounding like a hippy) at one with the bike. It makes you a part of the bike. Where you go the bike goes. And then if needs be you can unclip before a hazard or unclip to stick your foot down. Most of the time when i was learning with clipless when i did unclip it turned out i could have kept my foot in the pedal and so that habbit has since been forced out of me. My technical skill as a result has improved. It's what works for the individual.0
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see the thing is if your good with flats you still are part of the bike, Just not forced to actually be attached. You can adjust positions for obsticals, and you learn correct unweighting techniques for drops.
Most people who think they are technically better with flats are not, they simply force there way through most techincal sections yanking on the pedals. Flats just take time to learn, I spent three months learning to bunnyhop correctly practicing for most evenings for an hour untill i could do it correctly and to a good height.
With out developing the correct technique you will never hop above a foot for a example.
But on the whole i couldn't give a monkies what you ride on, as long you are having fun, and that your polite when i meet you on the trail0 -
Dont need to hop above a foot to be honest...
Technically though its more about prior planning and looking ahead. Ive seen plenty of people of clipless pedals who shouldnt be riding with them. Cos they coem to a technical section and loose it. And then the guys on platforms beat them. It does take a certian kind of rider to ride well with clipless pedals and i think the problem with todays consumer world is that people without the skill before hand see that the pro's are riding with them and think great i can be instantly better if i buy these... Well they didnt become pro for no reason but im pretty sure being able to ride with clipless pedals was not the main reason...
Im usually polite enough in fact from my days of pillion riding on the back of a motorbike i usually give all cyclists serious or not a nod of the head or a wave of the hand. And when im group cycling and we see cyclists comign the other way we shout out a cheery hello
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You mean you have never needed to round essex with the hoping
But Simply pedals do not really make you any better or worse, any gains are minimal as there not easily measurable scientificly. Simple thing is if people are crap on flats they will still be crap on clips. If some one is fat and unfit on flats there still gonna weeze like a piggy as they climb on spds.0 -
I dont just ride in Essex and ro be honest with the amount of potholes on the road im hopping more on my singlespeed bike set up for the road than i am off road at the moment...
We have a few fat people in the slow group with our local 53-12 ride outs and they have improved there average speed up and around the hills once they got clipless pedals. I mean they certianly werent as fast as the fast group and they were still panting but they noticed that it was easier for them to get up without standing up as much.0 -
Hmm, yet with us, our girl moved from spds which she had ridden with for years, came to flats, and now rails all the downhills, carves berms, jumps and is just generally better and quicker in fact hse beats me now (embarrased look at feet)
I have honestly to say though in terms of speed in climbing though i can see 0 difference between the two, just that she was forced to learn from the rest of us on flats to get her technique.
I will stick by what i said if some one is fat, there gonna be slow as hell no matter what. untillt hey ride round the block a few times, and the rest of it is physcosymatic, he thinks he can ride fast so does, but watch the little extra sweat they make just cos there working harder, not because its better 0 -
I can pedal with one foot up an Essex hill thats a vast improvement than on two feet with a set of platforms. Im a platform to spd convert and your girl is a spd to platform convert. Like ive said before it does depend on what your ridign and how you ride. The way i ride *always in the saddle when i can* means that SPD's suit me better i can get the same power siting down with SPD's as someone standing up on a set of flats can.
And yer anyone who is fat will be slow but i still eblieve there is a small differance in riding spd's and platforms and not just mentally.0 -
Read back on your one foot think to rotational forces previous in thread.0
