SPD's power advantage....Myth?
Comments
-
Mental Mickey wrote:One thing I notice at trails centres is that I'm beating/keeping up with all but the very fittest of riders, even though I've only been riding just coming up to 18 months.
I'm often pondering the advantages of Spd's while using flats myself and passing several people clipped in on long climbs.
I'm not sure that's a very scientific appraisal of SPDs
As for 18 months - how long do you think it takes to get fit? :shock:
Moving on slightly - I've heard a lot of arguments on both of these threads (MTB & Commuting) about how flats are as good as SPDs (to which, from a purely engineering point of view, I don't subscribe) but what I haven't heard is why flats are better?
And, sure, push-pulling will use up more energy but the point is you can choose when to do it. You can only push on flats and therefore only use those muscles. Those muscles and the energy (glycogen) stored in them will be fatigued/depleted earlier than if the muscles are sharing the load.
I used to ride flats - then clips - and now clipless and I know which I think are better.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
because neither is ultimately "better"meanredspider wrote:Moving on slightly - I've heard a lot of arguments on both of these threads (MTB & Commuting) about how flats are as good as SPDs (to which, from a purely engineering point of view, I don't subscribe) but what I haven't heard is why flats are better?
I've given several examples in the past of advantages of flats and advantages of spd.
But you know what? i'm completely fuc*ing bored of this discussion, the same old same old each and every time. SPD evangelists blowing the trumpet of SPDs regardless, and likewise for flats.
Very few people here seem to know, or want to know, or care about the real, and false advantages, even when it is pointed out to them, and so we have, another week, another stupid, pointless thread, which people will take nothing away from.0 -
Ohhhhh, get her!
I do agree though0 -
ahh man, i was hoping this would turn into a big argumenttive thread and it looks like it has been wrapped up already.
sooo, why are ht bikes ridden by hippies?0 -
yeehaamcgee wrote:i'm completely fuc*ing bored of this discussion, .
You don't have to contribute to or even read the thread :roll:
There's no "right" answer because, like everything, it's a compromise. What I hate is the bo77ox that gets trotted out that does stand up to scrutiny.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
0 -
yeehaamcgee wrote:The advantages are that your feet are (arguably, i personally don't like any float) more connected to the pedals, that you can pedal better over the top and bottom of the pedal stroke, and that the shoe/pedal interface is markedly stiffer.
You forgot that they also let you do fake bunnyhops :twisted:0 -
meanredspider wrote:
Why would I need to give one of those?meanredspider wrote:I'm not sure that's a very scientific appraisal of SPDs
What's that got to do with the price of bacon and eggs? Why do I need to calculate how long it takes to get fit? :shock:meanredspider wrote:As for 18 months - how long do you think it takes to get fit? :shock:meanredspider wrote:Moving on slightly -
I used to ride flats - then clips - and now clipless and I know which I think are better.
Which part of all these people that are younger and fitter looking than me,can barely keep up while using this 'fabulous system you describe' did you not quite understand? 0 -
I actually do reckon SPD is the better option, on balance, I just don't think either one is so much better than the others that it'll ever overrule personal preference. Even if SPDs are better a person riding totally comfortably and well on flats will still be better than a person riding nervously or poorly on SPDs, and vice versa.
The only thing that riles me a little is the people who've never tried the alternative and proclaim their option teh bestest. Or worse, the people who tried the alternative for 2 rides then decided they were rubbish. "I prefer riding on something I'm totally comfortable and enormously experienced with than something which is new and requires different techniques that I lack and haven't given long enough to learn"
And especially "I can't bunny hop on flats". No, you can't bunny hop.
I used to use SPDs, back when I used to ride. They were great. Then I exploded my leg and knee, and now SPDs even with a lot of float are asking for trouble, so I switched to flats when i got back into riding. And I HATED them, for a long time, but they were the only option. Now, I suspect that even if I got the green flag from the doctors I'd stick with flats, though I'd probably have both in the cupboard.Uncompromising extremist0 -
Just to add my two penneth to the eternal SPD vs Flats debate.
I don't feel the need for any extra power that may (or may not!) be gained by using SPDs. I am not a racer and none of my mates can keep up with me on the uphills anyway and they all use SPDs.That's one of the the advantages of riding with geriatrics on their day out from the nursing home,the other is they always forget whose turn it is to pay for the cake
Secondly I feel more relaxed with flats because I can bail when I mess things up-twice last outing not even on technical bits , just going too fast on bends. I suppose with SPDs i would have taken things easier but that sort of spoils the fun and keeps me well within my limits.
I do reckon that people on SPDs who do crash come off worse than those with flats and I would be interested to see some figures.If I had been in SPDs last week i would have defintely done an endo over the bars. I reckon broken collarbones are more common like with roadies who crash. I am quite happy to forego that any extra bit of pedalling power if I have more chance of escaping serious injury when things go pear shaped0 -
So, you want religious following regardless of facts?meanredspider wrote:yeehaamcgee wrote:i'm completely fuc*ing bored of this discussion, .
You don't have to contribute to or even read the thread :roll:
There's no "right" answer because, like everything, it's a compromise. What I hate is the bo77ox that gets trotted out that does stand up to scrutiny.0 -
I have ridden both I prefer spds - I am not that bothered by the power arguement though I believe it works if you are good and it is obviously the reason road riders use it. I understand the arguement for the safety of not being attached or the perceived feeling - personally I have my spds set low and can get out of them pretty easy (on the pull stroke even if I am cranking).
If I felt my feet were as planted and straight on flats maybe Id use them but I found skate shoes and flats didnt give me a secure planted stance on my bike. So I dont use them.Closet jockey wheel pimp whore.0 -
paul.skibum wrote:I found skate shoes and flats didnt give me a secure planted stance on my bike. So I dont use them.
It would almost certainly have come with time and practice. But then the question is still, is it worth putting the time in if you're completely happy with SPDs?
(we took a wee detour at glentress and went and did some off-map stuff today, and within about 5 minutes of skiting about in slimy mud and teetering on shonky northshore, a mate of mine who's a staunch SPD fan was complaining "It's not fair, I'm the only one on SPDs". Now, he should give flats a committed go, because he's not as happy on SPDs as he should be.
But in fact, he wasn't the only one on SPDs, another mate was- just that he was still happilly riding everything, falling off, unclipping and clipping back in while riding after dabbing or waving a leg for balance... And that guy frankly has little to gain from flats.
Personally I wouldn't have attempted a lot of this stuff with SPDs, whereas I ended up riding it all and clearing all but 1 small section- so it's not like I'd have needed to frantically unclip, but just knowing that I might would have put me right off, even though obviously I've got the ability to ride it all.Uncompromising extremist0 -
I have both.
Flats on the HT, SPD's on the FS.
I'm still fairly new to the SPD's to be fair, so can't really add much to the arguement.
Persoanlly, I don't feel anymore "efficient" on SPD's, but, as said, I'm still learning (and still trying to get fit, which is probably more the case).
I do like the way SPD's mean you're less likely to come home with bashed shins :oops: , but having said that, I've had a couple of "Oh Shiiiiit!" moments, just managing to unclip in time. I have them set to the loosest setting ATM, just for this reason.
But I'm determined to get used to them... Or not... Maybe.0 -
I believe my pedaling technique on flats is just right- I know how to spin the cranks and I'm not exactly last up the hills.
I tried SPDs years ago (Onza something-or-others) and didn't like the feel of being clipped to the bike.
I think its horses for courses TBH. Although if God wanted me to be bound to my bike he would of made it so! Clearly the work of the Devil- thats why roadies never use flats :P0 -
I dont know about any of the science behind all this but i know i prefer spuds over flats no question.
I grew up using clips and straps on my old road bike then my mountian bikes and i got used to riding with them. Your pedalling does change with clips/spuds than with flats i always pedal with my toes toes pointing down which helps with power delivery something u just cant do with flat pedals without having a very painfull crash.
To each their own but this is my opinion and take on things.0 -
I pedal with my toes down quite a lot with flats lol. If you want to pull up you can, and is how you bunny hop.0
-
Interestingly, from a power viewpoint, i'm significantly slower on my ss road bike and it is harder work when i'm on flats as opposed to clipless. I run the inbred clipless but both the 456's are on flats.
I've found that when things are smooth I like clipless, you can stomp through the gears with much less finesse, particularly when sprinting out of the saddle, and the power transfer feels better from the stiffer soled shoes. But I cannot ride technical terrain as well, I think this comes from turning using my heels more when on flats, due to the flex in the shoes. It is the most significant thing I notice, I take a corner I've done a hundred times on flats and it just feels wrong because i cannot use my bodyweight as much.0 -
see i have never tried spds...would like to...just to see if i prefer them or not...hence..why i don't think i was involved in a previous thread about them...
just that line in the article caught my eye as one of the reasons people give for using spd's....
thing is...despite that doctor saying this (I say doctor...in that she is phd...but she is a top road cyclist and cycling coach....) like yehaa said earlier...people still cling to that as the main reason...see the commuting forum where folk are saying they definitely 'feel' a difference in power...
if folk just said...i find them more comfortable...that would be a good enough reason...
if folk said...i can't bunnyhop and they let me lift the back wheel...that would also be a good enough reason..
feel connected to the bike...goog reason....Whenever I see an adult on a bicycle, I believe in the future of the human race.
H.G. Wells.0 -
I'm considering SPDs, but not for power reasons.
I do wonder what the comment in the OP was based on though. Have they actually done "all other things being equal" measurements of pulling up versus just powering on the down-stroke?
I'm certainly no phd but taking just that quote in the OP it sounds like it's commenting on an overly simplistic view of what's going on. Maybe it's not, but it reads that way.
If nothing else, the with/against gravity part seems to fly in the face of common sense.
When you push down it's not "with gravity" but "against your body weight". If nothing else, seems like it would give your other leg something further to brace against and possibly INCREASE the downstroke.
I dunno - I've never ridden with SPDs or done any measurements, but it strikes me that the whole thing is far more complicated than either I or the good Doctor are making it sound.
I remain interested by the whole thing and mainly attracted to SPDs for "feet flying off the pedals" reasons.0 -
I ride spd's, have done for years. Before that I had power straps ( i think they were called that) and before that, clips and straps. I like them and I won't ever be convinced that flats are better (for me).
But one thing that I keep thinking, why, if the flats brigade are right and there are no advantages, do all the pro road / xc / track / and a load of dh guys use them? They don't make me fast up hills, I'm too fat. They don't make me fast downhill, I'm too scared, But all those guys can't be worng and a few forum regulars be right can they?0 -
wesk wrote:But one thing that I keep thinking, why, if the flats brigade are right and there are no advantages, do all the pro road / xc / track / and a load of dh guys use them? They don't make me fast up hills, I'm too fat. They don't make me fast downhill, I'm too scared, But all those guys can't be worng and a few forum regulars be right can they?
Fairly few people say there's no advantages, not sure if anyone has done it in this thread. Just that the advantages of either aren't so much that either one is a bad choice, which is why you get downhillers on flats. Track, road etc, not relevant to us IMO. Even XC racing is barely relevant.Uncompromising extremist0 -
i heard that it uses your muscles in two different ways and therefore tires you out less0
-
"Northwind wrote:Track, road etc, not relevant to us IMO. Even XC racing is barely relevant.
Ah, OK, then pedlaling efficiency is totally irrelavant and it's about control / fun.
In which case it's down to a pure what I prefere then the two camps will never agree.
That's fair enough, at least I now understand the argument!0 -
wesk wrote:Ah, OK, then pedlaling efficiency is totally irrelavant !
Yes, that's exactly what I said :roll:
Road and track are entirely about maximising your performance, you worry about aero positions, perfect saddle heights, all that. And you're riding on smooth, predictable surfaces and at fairly constant speeds. So, things that apply there don't automaticlaly transfer to trail riders in flappy baggies with their seatposts dropped 4 inches battering down trails surfaced with rocks the size of baby heads and constantly changing speed, cadence, and riding position. Which is why what works for them isn't relevant to us, their riding is very different from ours. Of course, some things work for both but others don't. Chasing after that last half a per cent or whatever might make sense in some circumstances but not in others.
(whereas the advantage mtbers get, of being fastened to the bike when jumping, more able to jump and move the bike etc, don't benefit roadies)Uncompromising extremist0 -
I have always used spds when I moved from BMX to MTB. I have NO idea why but every serious rider in the 90's did so I did the same as I wanted to be a serious rider I guess (or be perceived as such maybe). The only thing I would say though is that I only want spds with loads of lateral float like Time or even the disposable Candys, again not sure why, just natural resistance to change. I fell a lot because of the pedals...the first day, in April 1995. I can only say that I have never fallen because of the pedals since then. I can't think of any disadvantages to being "attached to the bike", which is not even the case in my experience. Unclipping is TOTALLY instant and instinctive I find. Advantages? Again, no idea. Not a really useful post.
I might try flats actually come to think of it.0 -
Well, I for one have listed some of their advantages.wesk wrote:But one thing that I keep thinking, why, if the flats brigade are right and there are no advantages, do all the pro road / xc / track / and a load of dh guys use them? They don't make me fast up hills, I'm too fat. They don't make me fast downhill, I'm too scared, But all those guys can't be worng and a few forum regulars be right can they?
Re-read the thread rather than ask the same question. It's already been mentioned.0 -
Just out of interest does anyone still use flats for xc or riding at trail centres. :?: 0
