Does the KOM Have any Credibility?

2

Comments

  • rjh299
    rjh299 Posts: 721
    About as much as the green jersey!
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    I think you're taking it wrong. You talk as if it's some no name, nobody, who won it.
    Didn't even finish in the top 20 on a certain climb. You seem to be saying what a loser.
    One of the top cyclist's in the world, riding in one of the toughest races in the world, winning a very prestigious jersy in that race. Nothing to it though. Anyone could do it.
    Easy, peice of cake.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    RichN95 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    knedlicky wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    I still think my idea of taking the total time spent on catagorised climbs, giving the lowest time the polka dot jersey is the best.
    You can offer KOM time bonuses for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, over the line.
    You'd definitely get the best climbers then.
    Presumably you mean there to be a sensor at both the bottom and top of each climb to register the riders’ times.
    The problem with this is that it’s too difficult then for riders to judge how their rivals are doing. It’s too much like having a series of hill time trials, with rolling starts, and adding them all together to decide who's leading, who's won.

    Just take it from the group time - time it like they do the whole race - s'not difficult.

    The results could be found pretty quickly.
    If you can work it out for GC, you can work it out for that.

    The problem is that it's not exactly visual or exciting for the viewer, just an exercise in number crunching which will give the same result as GC minus time trials.

    It seems to take the whole competative aspect out of the competition just so someone famous can wear the jersey.

    More visual and exciting that a sodding TT.

    It's run exactly the same as a GC race, just only up mountains. Can't see why that's so not visual. It's about as visual as the current KOM. You want the jersey? Get out of the peleton and raz it up 3 of the 4 big climbs.

    It also by its very nature accounts for the fact that the best climbers should be best up the bigger mountains, by virtue they would account for a larger proportion of the overall time, since you spend more time going up them. It would also stop non climbers burrying themselves up one climb, only to bomb hard on others because they can't actually climb with the best.
    _
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    More visual and exciting that a sodding TT.

    It's run exactly the same as a GC race, just only up mountains. Can't see why that's so not visual. It's about as visual as the current KOM. You want the jersey? Get out of the peloton and raz it up 3 of the 4 big climbs.

    It also by its very nature accounts for the fact that the best climbers should be best up the bigger mountains, by virtue they would account for a larger proportion of the overall time, since you spend more time going up them. It would also stop non climbers burrying themselves up one climb, only to bomb hard on others because they can't actually climb with the best.


    But your idea doesn't make it any different than the GC competition. The same riders riding the same way. No-one will be trying to win it. You just want someone famous to win it rather than an unknown who actually put some specific effort in. It's harder to 'raz it up 3 or 4 climbs' than to sit behind Sorensen and Navarro until 3km to go. It's a terrible idea designed only to get a star name on the podium.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    RichN95 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    More visual and exciting that a sodding TT.

    It's run exactly the same as a GC race, just only up mountains. Can't see why that's so not visual. It's about as visual as the current KOM. You want the jersey? Get out of the peloton and raz it up 3 of the 4 big climbs.

    It also by its very nature accounts for the fact that the best climbers should be best up the bigger mountains, by virtue they would account for a larger proportion of the overall time, since you spend more time going up them. It would also stop non climbers burrying themselves up one climb, only to bomb hard on others because they can't actually climb with the best.


    But your idea doesn't make it any different than the GC competition. The same riders riding the same way. No-one will be trying to win it. You just want someone famous to win it rather than an unknown who actually put some specific effort in. It's a terrible idea designed only to get a star name on the podium.

    It's nothing to do with being famous. I want the person labelled "king of the mountains" to be that.
    _
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    It's nothing to do with being famous. I want the person labelled "king of the mountains" to be that.

    Well I think that going out in a small group and taking on the big climbs head on makes you every bit a 'king' as sitting behing Navarro and Sorensen until 3km to go.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    RichN95 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    It's nothing to do with being famous. I want the person labelled "king of the mountains" to be that.

    Well I think that going out in a small group and taking on the big climbs head on makes you every bit a 'king' as sitting behing Navarro and Sorensen until 3km to go.

    My proposed system does not preclude getting into breaks.
    _
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    Rick Chasey wrote:

    My proposed system does not preclude getting into breaks.

    Neither does riding for GC (which as I have pointed out, is exactly the same competition), but we all know how that ends up.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    You can't make it too complicated. Rather than re-writing the rules, doff your cap to Charteau.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Kléber wrote:
    You can't make it too complicated. Rather than re-writing the rules, doff your cap to Charteau.

    It's hardly complicated.

    Total time spent on catagorised climbs - shortest wins. Bonus KOM seconds awarded for first few over the tops of mountains.

    Job done.
    _
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    edited July 2010
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Kléber wrote:
    You can't make it too complicated. Rather than re-writing the rules, doff your cap to Charteau.

    It's hardly complicated.

    Total time spent on catagorised climbs - shortest wins. Bonus KOM seconds awarded for first few over the tops of mountains.

    Job done.

    wouldn't work..or would but would be an odd affair

    you could sit in the bus and just TT the climbs. bouns seconds wouldn't count for much on the tourmalet if some guys had bust a gut to keep off the front of the race for them...

    the guys behind often climb faster on the breaks anyway..no? that where breaks often fail but a lone surviour like Felieu or riblon survives to grab the stage..

    those guys are going backwards by mins using your system

    perhaps it would provide entertainment watching riders go head to head out of the bunch way behind then sitting up waiting for the next climb?
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,463
    I can't see why it isn't legitimate to win points on the smaller hills and then do enough on the big hills to hang onto the jersey. I think it is still a very relevant competition, remember that going into the big mountains Charteau and Pineau were very close, Charteau rode well enough in the Alps and Pyrenees. Well done Charteau on a good KoM victory.
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    If the KOM doesn't have any credibility I guess we won't be seeing ANY advertisements
    in ANY cycling mags or ANY websites proclaiming how this component or that frame or a certain shoe played a part in that jersey win. It's just not anything of any note :roll: :roll:
  • ms_tree
    ms_tree Posts: 1,405
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Did pantani ever win polka?
    No tho' he did win the white jersey twice. He did however, win the green mts jersey in the Giro, the year he won pink tho' he may have won it another year. I will check in one of my many italian books for you. (Was looking through the Tour mags during today's stage !! :(
    'Google can bring back a hundred thousand answers. A librarian can bring you back the right one.'
    Neil Gaiman
  • ms_tree
    ms_tree Posts: 1,405
    He's French, he's in the French race, he'll now be a star in France. He's worked hard to get the jersey and keep it. Good luck to him if the 'stars of the peloton' can't be bothered to go for it.
    'Google can bring back a hundred thousand answers. A librarian can bring you back the right one.'
    Neil Gaiman
  • takethehighroad
    takethehighroad Posts: 6,821
    Maybe not bring back time bonuses overall, but give 6,4 and 2 seconds at the top of each mountain, even 4th cats. That would make the GC men come out to play, and make the first week exciting, with a bunch sprint to the top of a 4th cat road bridge!
  • amd-sco
    amd-sco Posts: 94
    Chapeau Charteau worthy KOM - you can only win the competition you are in.
    Rules say X - he did X best - His jersey worthily earned.
    And quite a lively competition to boot.
    ‘There is No Try. There is only Do. Or do not.’
  • Garry H
    Garry H Posts: 6,639
    I think it would be a lot more interesting if some of the 15 or so riders that contest the GC without having a cat's chance in hell of getting on the podium, contested KOM instead. Unfortunately, I can't see this happening because a lot of the sponsors rate being 9th or 12th on GC above winning KOM. Also, the layman understands what the Yellow Jersey is, but not the Polka Dot one.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    Garry H wrote:
    I think it would be a lot more interesting if some of the 15 or so riders that contest the GC without having a cat's chance in hell of getting on the podium, contested KOM instead. Unfortunately, I can't see this happening because a lot of the sponsors rate being 9th or 12th on GC above winning KOM. Also, the layman understands what the Yellow Jersey is, but not the Polka Dot one.

    the problem is a lot of those riders get marked out and find it hard to get into breaks.. I'm sure the likes of LLS and Roche would not pass the stab at it if it was possible... moreover when only one of those GC potential guys does decide to deliberatly lose time so he can go for the jersey its an extremely boring competition

    Pelizotti for example

    you would need 4-5 of those guys dropping 20 mins somewhere then dukeing it out..

    your just back to the riders make the race really...
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • ms_tree
    ms_tree Posts: 1,405
    Ms Tree wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Did pantani ever win polka?
    No tho' he did win the white jersey twice. He did however, win the green mts jersey in the Giro, the year he won pink tho' he may have won it another year. I will check in one of my many italian books for you. (Was looking through the Tour mags during today's stage !! :(

    Rick I found one of the books which lists Pantani's palmares:
    2nd in mountains jersey in 98 Tour.
    1st in maglia verde in 98 Giro as well a Malia rosa.
    Also interesting is that they list his teams and some of the riders from the Mercatone Uno teams have ridden the Giro and Tour this year: Stefano Garzelli (97-99) Marco Velo(98-01), Massimo Codol (03) Sylvester Szmyd (03 (Both neo-pros) and Dimitri Konyshev (98-99) is in the Katusha car.
    'Google can bring back a hundred thousand answers. A librarian can bring you back the right one.'
    Neil Gaiman
  • thegibdog
    thegibdog Posts: 2,106
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    It's nothing to do with being famous. I want the person labelled "king of the mountains" to be that.

    Well I think that going out in a small group and taking on the big climbs head on makes you every bit a 'king' as sitting behing Navarro and Sorensen until 3km to go.

    My proposed system does not preclude getting into breaks.

    Why would you want to get into breaks, if you were targetting your "king of the mountains" jersey it'd be best to soft pedal on the flat/downhill and save all your effort for the uphill sections.
    https://gibworth.mypixieset.com
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    thegibdog wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    It's nothing to do with being famous. I want the person labelled "king of the mountains" to be that.

    Well I think that going out in a small group and taking on the big climbs head on makes you every bit a 'king' as sitting behing Navarro and Sorensen until 3km to go.

    My proposed system does not preclude getting into breaks.

    Why would you want to get into breaks, if you were targetting your "king of the mountains" jersey it'd be best to soft pedal on the flat/downhill and save all your effort for the uphill sections.

    You'd get a selection on the mountain as people raced up it, rather than guys riding tempo, letting a break go. After all, selections are more exciting than breaks.
    _
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    thegibdog wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    It's nothing to do with being famous. I want the person labelled "king of the mountains" to be that.

    Well I think that going out in a small group and taking on the big climbs head on makes you every bit a 'king' as sitting behing Navarro and Sorensen until 3km to go.

    My proposed system does not preclude getting into breaks.

    Why would you want to get into breaks, if you were targetting your "king of the mountains" jersey it'd be best to soft pedal on the flat/downhill and save all your effort for the uphill sections.

    You'd get a selection on the mountain as people raced up it, rather than guys riding tempo, letting a break go. After all, selections are more exciting than breaks.

    its an odd idea.. they would need to test it in a one weeker first...

    would liven up days where there was just a few scattered cat3/.4 climbs with a break away

    god the timing would be difficult to keep track of


    not so much from the race organizers POV with electronic chip timing but for the spectators watching..the KOM virtual...

    I suppose in this digital age not imposable to set up... the letour live page for the TT this year was finally nearing the promise of what IT to could bring to TT's "realised"

    you could end up with some weird slower moving bus of climbers behind the race on flatter stages that only had a few climbs...

    needs more thought
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Depends how much "KOM Time" bonuses you give at the top of each climb, surely?
    _
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Depends how much "KOM Time" bonuses you give at the top of each climb, surely?

    if its a lot to neutralize soft pedallars behind you have to get into the breaks and your back to where you started
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    mididoctors wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Depends how much "KOM Time" bonuses you give at the top of each climb, surely?

    if its a lot to neutralize soft pedallars behind you have to get into the breaks and your back to where you started

    Possibly, but it would mean you can't have a couple of shockers in the mountains where you end up in the bus to "save" yourself for the next day.
    _
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    mididoctors wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Depends how much "KOM Time" bonuses you give at the top of each climb, surely?

    if its a lot to neutralize soft pedallars behind you have to get into the breaks and your back to where you started

    Possibly, but it would mean you can't have a couple of shockers in the mountains where you end up in the bus to "save" yourself for the next day.

    no it would be the same as the time bonus would just equate to the current points and riders would calculate accordingly.. ok so and so can at max gain 'x" bonus mins/points today so I wont bother making an effort today because there are more bonus mins/points tomorrow

    to achieve not sitting in the bus you have to introduce some sort rule that meant you have to finish in the top half of the field or get KOM penalties!

    which if you introduced you could do away with the bonus times anyway if your goal is keep those contesting this thing near the front end of the race?

    in fact keep the current system but deduct points on mountain stages for not being in the first 20/40/50% (whatever?)of the field on the line

    dont do it on flat days as increases stupidity to get uninterested riders to the front on sprints
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • Cumulonimbus
    Cumulonimbus Posts: 1,730
    Maybe just ban anyone outside the top 10 from taking the jersey? :twisted:
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    Cumulonimbus wrote:
    Maybe just ban anyone outside the top 10 from taking the jersey? :twisted:

    OT for a sec

    why oh why oh why did you pick lance for GC?
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    Cumulonimbus wrote:
    Maybe just ban anyone outside the top 10 from taking the jersey? :twisted:

    more or less what this engineering the KoM jersey is trying to do
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm

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