Does the KOM Have any Credibility?

twotyred

No argument that the Yellow and White jerseys are the fastest overall in their competitions and that the Green Jersey is the fastest, or one of the fastest, sprinters so shouldn't the King of the Mountains be the best climber?

Yesterday Anthony Charteau won the KOM but wasn't even in the top 20 at the top of the Tourmalet. He's clearly far from being the best climber in the field. So does the polkadot jersey have any meaning any more other than the wearer made sure he was first over most of the lesser climbs?

ultimobici

twotyred wrote:

No argument that the Yellow and White jerseys are the fastest overall in their competitions and that the Green Jersey is the fastest, or one of the fastest, sprinters so shouldn't the King of the Mountains be the best climber?

Yesterday Anthony Charteau won the KOM but wasn't even in the top 20 at the top of the Tourmalet. He's clearly far from being the best climber in the field. So does the polkadot jersey have any meaning any more other than the wearer made sure he was first over most of the lesser climbs?

Thank Tricky DIcky Virenque for the template.

rockmount

I think the KOM has just become the yellow jersey !

Kléber

They doubled the points available on the final climb but Charteau still won it. Yes it's weird seeing some unknown bloke doing it but he's come good, you can't fluke this.

Pokerface

twotyred wrote:

No argument that the Yellow and White jerseys are the fastest overall in their competitions and that the Green Jersey is the fastest, or one of the fastest, sprinters so shouldn't the King of the Mountains be the best climber?

Well - if Thor wins it this year, he is far from one of the fastest sprinters this year. Similar to the KOM winner really - not the "best" climber - but the person who was most most consistent at hoovering up KOM points.

For my money Andy Schleck is the KOM - with 2 mountain-top wins. But because he was riding to win the Yellow instead, he couldn't so the kind of work needed to get the extra KOM points to win that jersey. If he targeted it - he would win it.

fastercyclist

When all the best climbers style themselves as top 20 GC riders then it's inevitable that the KOM jersey will fall to a weaker climber. It's more idiocy on the part of the stronger riders then any fault with the Jersey itself.

Nobody remembers 19th place - but strangely people would rather fight over that over the much more memorable KoM jersey.

William H

Kléber wrote:

They doubled the points available on the final climb but Charteau still won it..

In fact his challenge was kickstarted by the 40 points from the Madeleine

Unfortunately none of the top riders don't seem to target. I don't know why Cunego didn't give it a go, since he was out of the GC so early

rick_chasey

I still think my idea of taking the total time spent on catagorised climbs, giving the lowest time the polka dot jersey is the best.

You can offer KOM time bonuses for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, over the line.


You'd definitely get the best climbers then.

inkyfingers

To be fair to Charteau he did at least attack and generally ride aggressively to win it. If you focus it too much on the final climbs etc then the danger is it will end up on the shoulders of the guy who is second in GC by default. I think the current format which allows a non GC rider to win it is actually quite good as it becomes a target which a number of riders can focus on. The problem is that not enough riders focus on it as they would rather focus on the GC and teams can't support a second rider going for the KOM in the same way it's hard for a team to support a GC rider and a green jersey contender.

hammerite

Pokerface wrote:

twotyred wrote:

No argument that the Yellow and White jerseys are the fastest overall in their competitions and that the Green Jersey is the fastest, or one of the fastest, sprinters so shouldn't the King of the Mountains be the best climber?

Well - if Thor wins it this year, he is far from one of the fastest sprinters this year. Similar to the KOM winner really - not the "best" climber - but the person who was most most consistent at hoovering up KOM points.

For my money Andy Schleck is the KOM - with 2 mountain-top wins. But because he was riding to win the Yellow instead, he couldn't so the kind of work needed to get the extra KOM points to win that jersey. If he targeted it - he would win it.

Mr Vroomen, Thor's boss the other day pointed out on twitter that it's not the sprinters jersey, but the points leader jersey. And Thor deserved it being the most consistent at winning points.

To be fair, he's been fantastic at hauling his arse over climbs to pick up the odd point at the finishing line. As well as getting himself into a break to get some points. Tactically great, but agreed no not the best sprinter.

Dgh

Rick Chasey wrote:

I still think my idea of taking the total time spent on catagorised climbs, giving the lowest time the polka dot jersey is the best.

You can offer KOM time bonuses for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, over the line.


You'd definitely get the best climbers then.

Good idea.

Kléber

That's like saying the bloke with the highest record speed in the final kilometre gets the green. Just as the green doesn't go to the fastest sprinter, the polka dot goes to the rider willing to raid the mountains for the most points, not the best climber.

Tom Butcher

But the points are skewed towards sprinters - more for stages likely to end in bunch sprints and intermediates tend not to be half way up categorised climbs so it's not totally unfair to say it's a sprinters jersey - you'd struggle to contest it if you weren't a sprinter.

I think the KOM is just a sideshow to give a bit of interest at times when the racing for GC is a bit flat. The top climbers are all GC men and the second tier are generally all domestiques for the GC men which leaves riders who can get into breaks and climb a bit contesting the jersey. The green jersey has a bit more relevance but for me is secondary to the battle between the sprinters for stage wins.

Dgh

Green jersey would be better if the same points were awarded for all stages.

RichN95.

Even if only the points of 1st and HC mountains counted, Charteau would still have won ahead of Moreau. The guy's been out there in the break on almost every mountain stage, so he's certainly earned it.

I would rather it was won by someone trying to win it rather than as an accidental by-product of a GC challenge. What it does need though, is more riders going for it. For this two things need to be changed: a) more prize money (100k first prize) and b) UCI ranking points awarded (say the same as GC at the Eneco). The same adjustments should be made to the Green Jersey.

doddy178

It rewards attacking on mountain stages, Charteau deserved it, he did attack on them.

rick_chasey

Kléber wrote:

That's like saying the bloke with the highest record speed in the final kilometre gets the green. Just as the green doesn't go to the fastest sprinter, the polka dot goes to the rider willing to raid the mountains for the most points, not the best climber.

The idea of mine is to keep the climbers who aim to end up with a top 20 finish still with something to fight for without it being at the expense of their top 20 ambitions.

That's what the problem with the KOM in it's current form. It's a type of competition that usually rewarded the best climber with '70s race tactics, not '00s...

You might as well just have a 'breakaway' competition, rather than a KOM, since the current KOM has little to do with actually being "King of the Mountains"

Tom Butcher

Time bonuses over the top of each categorised climb - couple of seconds for a cat 4 up to maybe 20-30 for a HC - that'd make them work for it !

SpaceJunk

I think they should change the Green Jersey points structure so that Mark Cavendish can win it, and keep all his fanboys happy.

Thor is a fraud :roll:

mididoctors

Rick Chasey wrote:

Kléber wrote:

That's like saying the bloke with the highest record speed in the final kilometre gets the green. Just as the green doesn't go to the fastest sprinter, the polka dot goes to the rider willing to raid the mountains for the most points, not the best climber.

The idea of mine is to keep the climbers who aim to end up with a top 20 finish still with something to fight for without it being at the expense of their top 20 ambitions.

That's what the problem with the KOM in it's current form. It's a type of competition that usually rewarded the best climber with '70s race tactics, not '00s...

You might as well just have a 'breakaway' competition, rather than a KOM, since the current KOM has little to do with actually being "King of the Mountains"

well that's correct except you need to get into the breaks in the hills... as long as its competitive a classment has merit... no?

I favour a two tier cut off on the stage time

1st cut if is quite hard to make... failure results in loss of green jersey polka dot points .... not race expulsion

2nd cut off as normal

sherer

RichN95 wrote:

Even if only the points of 1st and HC mountains counted, Charteau would still have won ahead of Moreau. The guy's been out there in the break on almost every mountain stage, so he's certainly earned it.

I would rather it was won by someone trying to win it rather than as an accidental by-product of a GC challenge. What it does need though, is more riders going for it. For this two things need to be changed: a) more prize money (100k first prize) and b) UCI ranking points awarded (say the same as GC at the Eneco). The same adjustments should be made to the Green Jersey.

agree here. 20k isn't much and not worth going for. I assume 19th on GC must pay more > Bit like the FA Cup where the top teams don't really care until they are one game away from winning it

FJS

sherer wrote:

agree here. 20k isn't much and not worth going for. I assume 19th on GC must pay more >

In fact, no. Points and climber classifications are €25k, about the same as 6th in GC. Plus all the cash for each mountain top sprint added up. And, you get to stand on the podium each day, and on the Champs Elysees next to the overall winner, making your sponsor happy. There really is plenty at stake, just look at how big name riders take the green jersey seriously, with similar stakes.

I do think Charteau has earned it, he played the game well within the current rules, and worked hard for it. Cunego and Moreau had a go at it, but just weren't able to do so, didn;t get in the right brake, or had other distracting interests. For the rest of the better climbers, too many still had high hopes for a good podium place - the disadvantage of building the Tour de France route so that GC time differences stay relatively close until the last week (no long TT early on, relatively easy mountain stages in second week). A second reason is that, increasingly, good climbers are snatched up by GC favourites as mountain helpers.

knedlicky

Rick Chasey wrote:

I still think my idea of taking the total time spent on catagorised climbs, giving the lowest time the polka dot jersey is the best.
You can offer KOM time bonuses for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, over the line.
You'd definitely get the best climbers then.

Presumably you mean there to be a sensor at both the bottom and top of each climb to register the riders’ times.
The problem with this is that it’s too difficult then for riders to judge how their rivals are doing. It’s too much like having a series of hill time trials, with rolling starts, and adding them all together to decide who's leading, who's won.

knedlicky

Dgh wrote:

Green jersey would be better if the same points were awarded for all stages.

Yep!

Tom Butcher wrote:

Time bonuses over the top of each categorised climb - couple of seconds for a cat 4 up to maybe 20-30 for a HC - that'd make them work for it !

I see this as a way to enliven the GC competition more than the KOM comp. And I’d be more generous with the bonuses.

Mettan

Pokerface wrote:

For my money Andy Schleck is the KOM - with 2 mountain-top wins. But because he was riding to win the Yellow instead, he couldn't so the kind of work needed to get the extra KOM points to win that jersey. If he targeted it - he would win it.

Agreed.

eh

What do people expect from the KOM?

I just had a look at the records of two big time KOM winners on Wikipedia:

Lucian Van Impe won 9 stages in 15 starts, KOM 5 times

Tricky Dicky won 7 stages in 11 starts (although one year he never made the mountains :twisted: ) KOM 7 times

I think Jalabert's win was more making the most of the rules than Tricky Dicky, but still the KOM opportunity is open to all teams and riders, so no one can complain about it.

rick_chasey

knedlicky wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

I still think my idea of taking the total time spent on catagorised climbs, giving the lowest time the polka dot jersey is the best.
You can offer KOM time bonuses for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, over the line.
You'd definitely get the best climbers then.

Presumably you mean there to be a sensor at both the bottom and top of each climb to register the riders’ times.
The problem with this is that it’s too difficult then for riders to judge how their rivals are doing. It’s too much like having a series of hill time trials, with rolling starts, and adding them all together to decide who's leading, who's won.

Just take it from the group time - time it like they do the whole race - s'not difficult.

The results could be found pretty quickly.
If you can work it out for GC, you can work it out for that.

rick_chasey

Did pantani ever win polka?

RichN95.

knedlicky wrote:

Dgh wrote:

Green jersey would be better if the same points were awarded for all stages.

Yep!

Tom Butcher wrote:

Time bonuses over the top of each categorised climb - couple of seconds for a cat 4 up to maybe 20-30 for a HC - that'd make them work for it !

I see this as a way to enliven the GC competition more than the KOM comp. And I’d be more generous with the bonuses.

Then the Tour would probably just be won by the GC guy with the best sprint. (Sanchez?). Or more likely non-dangerous breaks would be allowed to go each day to collect the bonuses.

Everyone seems to think these ideas would magically change the race into one where everyone attacks everyone all the time. It won't happen. Professional sport is about minimising errors with just a touch of flair thrown in. They would

knedlicky

ultimobici wrote:

twotyred wrote:

… shouldn't the King of the Mountains be the best climber?
Yesterday Anthony Charteau won the KOM but … He's clearly far from being the best climber in the field

Thank Tricky DIcky Virenque for the template.

The answer to the OP’s original question is ‘No’. It’s a race where riders and teams can use tactics to win, not a live search to find the best anybody.

As for Virenque, later in his career he did win KOM in bits rather than by big stages (earlier he did win stages or finish at the front on some big climbs), but over the last few decades, he wasn’t the first to use the bit-by-bit approach, nor was he the most extreme.

There was Torres in 1973, Vallet in 1982, Claveyrolat in 1990 (although Claveyrolat was regarded as a good climber, he got most of his points from small stuff plus one stage win).

Best of all was Perurena - no stage wins, never in the top ten of any stage (apart from 2nd as a member of his team in the TTT), final overall GC place 44th at 1 hour 19 mins back. But King of the Mountains! A real coup.

Charteau deserves the KOM because he tactically played the right game, and one also can’t complain when you think how lively he was on some stages, contributing to the race.

RichN95.

Rick Chasey wrote:

knedlicky wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

I still think my idea of taking the total time spent on catagorised climbs, giving the lowest time the polka dot jersey is the best.
You can offer KOM time bonuses for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, over the line.
You'd definitely get the best climbers then.

Presumably you mean there to be a sensor at both the bottom and top of each climb to register the riders’ times.
The problem with this is that it’s too difficult then for riders to judge how their rivals are doing. It’s too much like having a series of hill time trials, with rolling starts, and adding them all together to decide who's leading, who's won.

Just take it from the group time - time it like they do the whole race - s'not difficult.

The results could be found pretty quickly.
If you can work it out for GC, you can work it out for that.

The problem is that it's not exactly visual or exciting for the viewer, just an exercise in number crunching which will give the same result as GC minus time trials.

It seems to take the whole competative aspect out of the competition just so someone famous can wear the jersey.