Renshaw out? Damn!
Comments
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Not reacts, over-reacts. One (or two) butt(s) too many.goldsmith_robert wrote:Watch the nice straight white line on the road: Dean comes across and leans onto Renshaw. Its a shoulder charge. Renshaw reacts. Its not correct and deserves a fine + Stage dsq. Not sending him home.
Cavendish will still have Martin and others but it would be interesting to see how he fared without anybody, like Freire and McEwen are already more or less doing.
Maybe Zabel has some tips, he often had to fare all alone for himself too.0 -
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/vaughters-says-renshaw-disqualification-was-fair
Why does this idiot have so much faith in Tyler "Transitions" Farrar? He couldn't win a sprint in Fred Witton Classic.
I'm actually suprised he didn't try to get Cav DQD
Sorry, Rant over!!0 -
The pushing and shoving with Dean is irrelevant for two reasons. Firstly, it happened continuoulsy in a previous stage and went unsanctioned. Ergo precedent set. secondly it was initiated by the other rider who has not been punished.
Therefore they have ejected the rider for the change of line. Did it deserve punishment? yes, but, have you ever seen a rider ejected for a line change? If it was out and out dangerous he would have continued all the way across to the boards rather than just breaking Farrars sprint up. Clearly unsporting but these guys are no angels.
It's absolute b*ll*cks and as stated by others exactly the same as last year. A punishment based on a foundation of jelly.
It jsut makes me even more angry about stage two. Saxo can shut a race down to suit their ends but Columbia get punished disproportionately to other teams two years in a row. The two speed peloton has a whole new meaning!0 -
donrhummy wrote:What do you mean by that? Watch the video from overhead and Dean rides a perfectly straight line up till being headbutted. NEVER wavers from that line.
Are you on loopy juice tonight? Dean clearly moves across the Renshaw line and tries to force him and Cavendish towards the barriers on the left.0 -
Dean tried to put Renshaw up against the barriers first...one or two head nudges seemed understandable from Renshaw considering the threat...glad Farrar got the door slammed on him by resnhaw after the behaviour of Dean0
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dunno if the vids been posted before but if it has i apologise, anyway, the view from above clearly shows Dean trying to muscle Renshaw and possibly Cav into the barriers, maybe if Farrar had been on Deans wheel instead of Cavs he wouldnt have been in renshaws sights when he eventually lets cav go and once again Hushvod cant win a sprint against sprinters.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oen6ZcoVOa4who cares?0 -
Farrar said it directly after stage in interiew for France3 TV so you are simply wrong.warrior4life wrote:I doubt even Farrar or Dean would want renshaw sent home...
Farrar said it as well (same interview).Luckao wrote:donrhummy wrote:he endangered their lives.
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Yep, I reckon Renshaw should have only be relegated and fined 200 euro.
And then come Paris every lead out train could have kicked, elbowed, stratched, head-butted and block their opponents as they sprinted up the Champs Elysees without fear of being sanctioned.
In fact, the leadout trains should be able to carry chains and clubs and reenact that fabulous Sega Mageadrive game "road rash".
Did Renshaw deserve to go home for head butt? No.
Did Renshaw deserve to go home for block? No.
But as Robbie McEwen mentioned, both he and Zabel have been relegated for giving a Liverpool kiss, and Cav likewise for blocking.
So a stiffer penalty was warranted.
I agree with the expulsion. The icing on the cake was Renshaw looking around, seeing Farrar and then deciding to block him.
BTW - since HTC hold such a low opinion of Farrar, why even bother to try and block him??
Renshaw got what he deserved.0 -
Here's an interesting, and dare I say it, balanced view on the incident. Some good points raised:
http://cervelo.com/gv0 -
The best thing about the forum topic, and also the Stage 11 spoiler topic, is that I have learnt the ENTIRE cycling world is against HTC.
Of course, it would never happen to another team. It's because of Cav, blah, blah,blah...
Unbelievable.0 -
dry your eyesgoldsmith_robert wrote:A fine? Yes. A Stage dsq? yes. Kicked out of tour? No.
Dean gets away with coming across. Renshaws big error was cutting off Farrar afterwards. Farrar was never going to win. Heat of the moment i guess.
Over-reaction by commissaries and they shouldn't have done it. But it is done.
I suspect this has more to do with breaking up HTC's monopoly on sprint finishes. Wouldn't have happened in the Giro.
Do it for Mark, Mark!
same old HTC,always cheating0 -
Watched it yet again.
1) Dean clearly used his elbow, first, on Renshaw.
2) Dean definitely tried to lockdown the Columbia two, on the barriers.
3) Dean continued to try to take Renshaw's line, until the final head butt.
4) Dean brought Farrar up towards the front but never actually led him out.
After the attempted block and consequent head butting saga, he just sat up and cruised back into the bunch.
5) Renshaw cutting up Farrar, who was not on Dean's wheel, was never part of the decision, so is irrelevant to the specific debate.
Unilateral and harsh."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
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Blazing Saddles wrote:Watched it yet again.
1) Dean clearly used his elbow, first, on Renshaw.
2) Dean definitely tried to lockdown the Columbia two, on the barriers.
3) Dean continued to try to take Renshaw's line, until the final head butt.
4) Dean brought Farrar up towards the front but never actually led him out.
After the attempted block and consequent head butting saga, he just sat up and cruised back into the bunch.
5) Renshaw cutting up Farrar, who was not on Dean's wheel, was never part of the decision, so is irrelevant to the specific debate.
Unilateral and harsh.
Re point 5: check out this link, seems to suggest otherwise:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/race-jury-and-aso-explain-renshaw-expulsion
Race organiser Amaury Sports Organisation (ASO) agreed with the race jury's decision and race director Jean-François Pescheux also spoke with Cyclingnews about the process behind the expulsion. "It's the jury of race commissaires that takes the decision and they looked at the TV images three or four times," said Pescheux.
"There are multiple infringements: headbutts, which are unacceptable in the Tour de France, to keep the other riders from passing. After setting up Cavendish he's forcing the riders who finished second and third to the barriers. These are flagrant infringements and the jury decided right away to declassify him and later also to put him out of the race."0 -
Just one small example of the many flaws in this one sided decision:
"After setting up Cavendish he's forcing the riders who finished second and third to the barriers"
So the judgement was partly on the basis that Renshaw put Petacchi into the barriers?
If you think the judgement and the explanation of it stacks up with what you saw then that's your view, but it all sounds like a bag of shi*e to me.0 -
chriskempton wrote:Just one small example of the many flaws in this one sided decision:
"After setting up Cavendish he's forcing the riders who finished second and third to the barriers"
So the judgement was partly on the basis that Renshaw put Petacchi into the barriers?
If you think the judgement and the explanation of it stacks up with what you saw then that's your view, but it all sounds like a bag of shi*e to me.
Fantastic. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. This clearly shows that they have it in for HTC.
FFS, it doesn't matter one iota that you think he is referring to Petacchi. At the end of the day, Renshaw CLEARLY turns around, has a look, and then moves over resulting in Farrar being block.
Renshaw was outed for head butts and for blocking.
Watch the footage again - does he head butt? Does he block?0 -
As McEwen put it on twitter, you do one of those things, you get DQ'd. You do both in the same sprint, you go home.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0
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How is something from Cervelo balanced in an issue that affects Cavendish?
When people say if it had been Cav he'd have been relegated on the stage only rather than kicked out but that this wouldn't be sufficient in Renshaw's case are they suggesting that rules should be changed for different riders? Surely everyone has to be treated the same? I think a big problem with sanctions in the race is that they appear to be made by one man in the heat of the moment with no recourse for appeal. The decision is also made more or less on the spot. The Chief Commissaire could have spent half an hour reviewing all the footage yesterday before making a decision, there was no stage podium result dependent on the decision and yet by his own admission he looked at it once! Plus, as we were told with a degree of arrogance last year the chief comm makes the decision and there is no right of appeal.0 -
SpaceJunk wrote:chriskempton wrote:Just one small example of the many flaws in this one sided decision:
"After setting up Cavendish he's forcing the riders who finished second and third to the barriers"
So the judgement was partly on the basis that Renshaw put Petacchi into the barriers?
If you think the judgement and the explanation of it stacks up with what you saw then that's your view, but it all sounds like a bag of shi*e to me.
Fantastic. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. This clearly shows that they have it in for HTC.
FFS, it doesn't matter one iota that you think he is referring to Petacchi. At the end of the day, Renshaw CLEARLY turns around, has a look, and then moves over resulting in Farrar being block.
Renshaw was outed for head butts and for blocking.
Watch the footage again - does he head butt? Does he block?
You miss my point that the explanation doesn't fit the evidence. I'm not denying Renshaw did wrong - the retaliation to the squeeze from Dean was arguably excessive, and switching Farrar was wrong.
The importance of the inaccuracies and lack of balance in the ruling is that the judgement is shown to be amateurish, half baked, one sided, etc etc.
PS I don't think he is referring to Petacchi, I'm pointing to the bit where he says it - try rereading the quote.0 -
I think you're forgetting that the judge that gave the interview was speaking in a second or third language. English clearly isn't his first. So what he says needs to be taken with a grain of salt as I don't think he was expressing himself very well.
I also think it's funny how people expect sprinters to hold a perfectly straight line while hammering down the road at 70kph. People move. Bikes move. There is some leeway to lean, throw elbows, etc. We see it EVERY day.
Renshaw has a right to push back, maybe even throw an elbow, etc - but THREE headbutts isn't cool or allowed. Under ANY circumstances.
I am a Cav fan - and I am saddened and disappointed by the ejection - but can't honestly sit here and say he didn't, in some small way, deserve it.0 -
5) Renshaw cutting up Farrar, who was not on Dean's wheel, was never part of the decision, so is irrelevant to the specific debate.
Unilateral and harsh.SpaceJunk wrote:Re point 5: check out this link, seems to suggest otherwise:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/race-jury-and-aso-explain-renshaw-expulsion
Race organiser Amaury Sports Organisation (ASO) agreed with the race jury's decision and race director Jean-François Pescheux also spoke with Cyclingnews about the process behind the expulsion. "It's the jury of race commissaires that takes the decision and they looked at the TV images three or four times," said Pescheux.
"There are multiple infringements: headbutts, which are unacceptable in the Tour de France, to keep the other riders from passing. After setting up Cavendish he's forcing the riders who finished second and third to the barriers. These are flagrant infringements and the jury decided right away to declassify him and later also to put him out of the race."
OK, then the decision, using both infractions, is correct, IMO.
However, it seems that the ASO have become UCI-like in the revision of
First off, they want folks to ignore the Barredo-Costa comparision, as it is old news.
(nice one Pat Pescheux)
Then we have the contradictory statements.
Last night, Pescheux said that the jury only viewed the incident (the head butting only) once and that once was enough.
He now says they studied it 3 or 4 times.
In which case, they need to watch it some more and they my spy Dean's hooking of Renshaw and slap him with a fine, too.
My guess is, they have adapted the decision to fit what actually happened after the butting."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Renshaw deserved what he got...the first couple of headbutts can probably be excused on the basis it's a sprint and argie-bargie does happen, but he then moved away, before coming back to do a final butt, and then the blocking of farrar was dangerous and unsporting.
dsqing him is meaningless, he's not contesting the stage win. Perhaps this leads to the question of whether it should be possible to disqualify a stage winner (eg Cav) if their lead out man does something dangerous. would make ppl like renshaw think twice.
dangerous conduct is punished harshly and rightly so, remember in 1997 tom steels was kicked out for throwing a bottle at fred moncassin in the sprint, deliberate and dangerous conduct. as to barredo and other guy the other day, they had crossed the line once they had their fight, and were only putting themselves in danger, rather than the whole peloton.0 -
Robstar24 wrote:Renshaw deserved what he got...the first couple of headbutts can probably be excused on the basis it's a sprint and argie-bargie does happen, but he then moved away, before coming back to do a final butt, and then the blocking of farrar was dangerous and unsporting.
dsqing him is meaningless, he's not contesting the stage win. Perhaps this leads to the question of whether it should be possible to disqualify a stage winner (eg Cav) if their lead out man does something dangerous. would make ppl like renshaw think twice.
dangerous conduct is punished harshly and rightly so, remember in 1997 tom steels was kicked out for throwing a bottle at fred moncassin in the sprint, deliberate and dangerous conduct. as to barredo and other guy the other day, they had crossed the line once they had their fight, and were only putting themselves in danger, rather than the whole peloton.
Tom Steel's DQ was much cooler than Renshaws.0 -
Putting aside the rights or wrongs about this particular punishment...
Hasn't it made for much more exciting sprinting? As long as I have watched cycling I have always found a well controlled lead out by one team rather processional and disengaging. Interesting to observe for organisation, skill and athleticism but simultaneously predictable. The complete free for all's we have had in this race have been totally captivating.
I am well aware that sprinting has always been a job for the bold. Despite this I have never really observed the jostling and argy bargy for myself apart from the obvious. this year it has been so apparent that clearly the problem is escalating and therefore something needed to be done.
It is because it has been unchecked that it has escalated to this point. As a professional referee myself (in a different sport), my big concern is whether there was any communication with the squads that the goal posts were about to be moved with regard to what is tolerable or whether this was an out of the blue decision. As I stated earlier, a precedent had already been set condoning exactly the behaviour that saw Renshaw kicked out.
It is not unusual to tighten up on enforcement standards during a sporting event if people take advantage of the leeway that has been allowed. If you're going to do this though. You MUST let the athletes know that you are doing so, otherwise, what was acceptable previously is no longer and yet nobody is aware of this change but the ref.0 -
SpaceJunk wrote:Here's an interesting, and dare I say it, balanced view on the incident. Some good points raised:
http://cervelo.com/gv
Yes, the team of a green jersey favourite are bound to have a balanced view on a DQ of a key component of a main rival's challenge.....
Not to say that the points aren't interesting, but still doubt the inherent "balance"....
EDIT: You know, on further reflection, I feel that the guy has tried to make a balanced, personal opinion. Only fair to acknowledge that.....0 -
I think it's the right decision - though possibly for the wrong reasons. I can't see what is wrong with using your head to push someone - it's safer than leaning into them with your shoulder. Maybe he gave one push too many but it doesn't merit more than a word in his ear. Dean initiated that little scuffle and if the use of the head is being held against Renshaw then Dean should also be subject to some kind of punishment - maybe a fine.
For nearly putting Farrar into the barriers though the DQ is fair. It's not just careless it's deliberate - you can see him have a look and make the move. Taking risks with his life may be putting it a bit strongly but taking risks with his continued participation in the race, season and possibly career is definitely not. IF Renshaw is willing to risk sending Farrar home with broken bones why should it be such a shock that the commissaires decide to send him home as a punishment ?
As for Farrar's ability - Farrar is quick - I think maybe one of only a couple of riders with any chance of beating Cav in a straight sprint - I doubt he'd have done it yesterday but we don't know for sure. He's been riding this tour with an injury but it looks like he's coming back into form and I think he'll be finishing ahead of Petacchi in future sprints if not Cav.
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/race-ju ... -expulsion
"Asked if Renshaw's teammate Mark Cavendish should also be punished because he was the one benefiting from the Australian's actions, Pescheux surprisingly made it clear he wouldn't want to have it any other way and that the rules didn't allow it to be so. "We can't. He didn't make a fault."
"That's the problem. It happened next to him and later, behind him. We can't disqualify Cavendish because his teammate made a big infringement," Pescheux concluded.
In other words: "Id love to nail a dsq on Cav but the rules stop me form doing so".
There are not the words of an impartial race director.
I dont subscribe to the "everyone hates HTC" conspiracy theory, but the tour organisers have previously shown they are willing to bend the rules to make the Tour more exciting.
Cancellara organising a go-slow quickly met with their blessing. Grossly unfair to other riders (inc Hushvod - the only sprinter who cant sprint!). This is just their way to make it more exciting. It will work. Doesn't make it fair. Welcome to the circus that is the TdF!
Cant wait for next sprint stages.Ca roule ma poule?0 -
steviedonut wrote:
dry your eyesgoldsmith_robert wrote:A fine? Yes. A Stage dsq? yes. Kicked out of tour? No.
Dean gets away with coming across. Renshaws big error was cutting off Farrar afterwards. Farrar was never going to win. Heat of the moment i guess.
Over-reaction by commissaries and they shouldn't have done it. But it is done.
I suspect this has more to do with breaking up HTC's monopoly on sprint finishes. Wouldn't have happened in the Giro.
Do it for Mark, Mark!
same old HTC,always cheating
LMAO.... im no Cav-blinkered fan. Everyone is at it, thats sprinting.... ....I think Renshaws hissy fit was v.funny! Repeatedly headbut your rival leadout man, and then have a cheeky look before cutting of Farrar. Not very subtle. But you can imagine what was going through his mind, cant you? :twisted: Still dont think it deserved being sent home. Looks much worse than it was. Other teams have done worse but were a bit more subtle in they way they did it.
Never quite liked HTC monopoly on sprints, but I like Renshaw more now!Ca roule ma poule?0 -
But where do you stop - racing a bike is not meant to be a contact sport.
In a sprint people are bound to get boxed, get cut up etc etc but when you start allowing riders to deliberately close another rider into the barriers where are the limits. If Renshaw wasn't punished then it's open season for leadout riders to block rival sprinters - it's not a bike race any more it's American football on wheels. Cycling relys on people looking out for the safety of each other - that applies from the pros down to the likes of us - there's no place for people who deliberately put other riders at risk just to gain an advantage.
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
When asked whether Julian Dean should be punished for his infringements Curchod was unapologetic. "In every sprint you have some movements. You can analyse every sprint and you will always find some movements."
So there you have it, the race directors say it's ok to sneak an elbow in tho......0
