* SPOILERS * What was Sky thinking?

RichN95.

There's a long way to go yet.

2.45 down isn't ideal, but it's about the same as Gesink, Basso and Sastre.

After some people gleefully writing Cavendish's season obituary on Wednesday, I'd advise a policy of 'wait and see'.

gattocattivo

Don't really think any of the Sky riders sent to the front would have still been there by the time Wiggins blew on the final climb, so I don't think the issue here is one of a tactical blunder by Sky. It's more about Wiggins not being as good as he thought he would be on the final climb. Before the Tour started I thought he would finish top ten, but struggle to match last year's fourth place, now I'm not sure whether he will even get that. It will be interesting to see whether this was a one-off - if he drops off the back on the next serious climb then he can kiss goodbye to this Tour (and this season, seeing as he's built everything around this). I'd like to think he can turn it around, but I'm not that optimistic.

verylonglegs

RichN95 wrote:

There's a long way to go yet.

2.45 down isn't ideal, but it's about the same as Gesink, Basso and Sastre.

After some people gleefully writing Cavendish's season obituary on Wednesday, I'd advise a policy of 'wait and see'.

True but there are a lot more variables as far as the sprints are concerned, is your lead out train cutting it or have are you picking the right wheel to follow etc. Climbing is a bit more straight forward, you are either on the money or your whole race is blown in a few bad km's. What must surely count against Wiggins is that tougher mountain stages lie ahead, he may not lose time in the same way again but the flip side is can he gain it?

mididoctors

fastercyclist wrote:

I doubt this is going to be the last time Brad loses time to the GC favourites. It's just going to get worse as people begin attacking Contador; I think the weakness of Contador being revealed is going to spell the end for Wiggins as the real climbers begin probing for opportunities.

Using his team to get rid of the shack was also a mistake as the Shack have an interest in the same kind of riding as Sky - put a steady tempo up front so their guy doesn't get dropped.

I don't really take much pleasure in seeing this situation as Wiggins unfortunately put all his eggs in one basket. But I still find it absurd to just go with the flow all year then expect to win the Tour. It takes a certain psychology to do that, a la Armstrong; Brad hasn't got that. He needs to get out and win in the Spring of '11 then we'll see if he can do the real deal in the Tour.

+1 decent post

Tom Butcher

Can't see how it was a tactical mistake - he felt OK, in theory the finishing climb suited him more than some others in the race - send men to the front and set a hard but consistent tempo which should have suited Wiggo and put any rivals who were struggling in trouble - especially given a couple of them had crashed earlier.

donrhummy

morstar wrote:

I think Sky are well aware of Brads one pace. They are trying to win a race against superior climbing talents and the tactic today, whilst clearly bold, was to control as many elements of the race they could. This is completely consistent with Brailsfords approach to the track; control what you can!
I also think there is a large element of learning by trial and error. Sky are learning what it takes to control a race. They don't expect to win this year but are laying the foundations for future attempts. This is new team that is not just making up the numbers but on a steep learning curve that is not risk averse.
Brad should still be comfortably top 10. He lost time today on 15-20 riders of which many are well behind on GC and some he will have for 5 mins in the TT.
Disappointing for him and the team but hardly catastrophic unless you really thought he was a likely winner rather than an outside chance.

If that's the case, then this makes no sense at all. No GC guy was going to start attacking and changing the pace on that first mountain. Any attacks were going to come on the second mountain. So it would've made more sense to try and keep Sky's two supporters for wiggins fresh and then hammer it on the second mountain.

Tom Butcher

Maybe they just wanted to make the race hard before the last mountain - if Brad felt fresh and the finish suited him why not try and soften up the opposition before the final climb ?

donrhummy

I think Brailsford now thinks it might have been a mistake, and the reason for Wiggins' cracking:

Earlier in the stage we thought we should drive it - the guys felt more comfortable at the front doing that and at the time it looked like it was having the desired effect.

In the end the heat and the pace just got to Brad in those final few kilometres but we live to fight another day and all is not lost by any stretch of the imagination, far from it.

RichN95.

verylonglegs wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

There's a long way to go yet.

2.45 down isn't ideal, but it's about the same as Gesink, Basso and Sastre.

After some people gleefully writing Cavendish's season obituary on Wednesday, I'd advise a policy of 'wait and see'.

True but there are a lot more variables as far as the sprints are concerned, is your lead out train cutting it or have are you picking the right wheel to follow etc. Climbing is a bit more straight forward, you are either on the money or your whole race is blown in a few bad km's. What must surely count against Wiggins is that tougher mountain stages lie ahead, he may not lose time in the same way again but the flip side is can he gain it?

Maybe, but sometimes in sport you just have a bad day. Spain lost their first game of the World Cup, England were lucky to get out of their group at the 20/20 World Cup, Nadal struggled in rounds two and three of Wimbledon. Writing someone off on one day's performance is an invitation to be made to look a mug. We'll see on Tuesday if he's got it or not.

mr_poll

fastercyclist wrote:

It takes a certain psychology to do that, a la Armstrong; Brad hasn't got that. .

Is psychology a euphemism for EPO or blood doping because yes you're right Brad doesnt have that.

eh

Thing is Sky tried a similar tactic in the Daupine and it failed there, me thinks they need to revisit the tactics drawing board and come up with a different plan.

oldwelshman

eh wrote:

Thing is Sky tried a similar tactic in the Daupine and it failed there, me thinks they need to revisit the tactics drawing board and come up with a different plan.

How about you or some of the other critical posters becoming DS for Sky, I am sure you would do a better job with the riders they have?

Rodrego Hernandez

oldwelshman wrote:

eh wrote:

Thing is Sky tried a similar tactic in the Daupine and it failed there, me thinks they need to revisit the tactics drawing board and come up with a different plan.

How about you or some of the other critical posters becoming DS for Sky, I am sure you would do a better job with the riders they have?

Anyone who criticizes doesn't have to be expected to perform the job better. Sky have a habit of thinking that their team is stronger than it actually is. If we can see that, then why can't their DS?

Kléber

Expectations are high, Sky have a massive budget. We get force-fed details about the lighting on the team bus for example when results are they way to relax the mood on the bus. All the attention to detail whilst they lack the riders capable of winning as often as the budget suggests, it's like trying to build a state of the art fighter plane, only without an engine.

But the same is true of Katusha at times. In fairness, Sky are a new team, you can't take riders from so many teams and get things to work, especially if you are going to subject them all to third-rate business school cod psychology.

Actually Sky did ok, what more did you expect? Wiggins had a breakthrough last year but the team isn't built to suit him. The likes of Flecha, Gerrans, Pauwels, EBH suggest the team is suited to poaching wins on the transition stages. Lofqvist must be a bit hacked off, he's a genuine talent reduced to playing mountain guide although he's not been the best in the high mountains.

If there are any mistakes, it's backing Wiggins too much. They must know his numbers and he's probably not hitting the same performance as last year. We'll see if the strategy changes.

wicked

Never ceases to amaze me all the rubbish talked on here by 'experts' who seem to think they know everything from the comfort of their sofa/keyboard. Of course they know better than Sean Yates and co, I mean WTF has he ever done? I am sure certain forum members have raced at the highest level.
All too easy to dissect every little thing AFTER the event isn't it, unfortunately Sky do not have that luxury. The trend to knock sky is tiresome and unfortunately very British.

iainf72

wicked wrote:

All too easy to dissect every little thing AFTER the event isn't it, unfortunately Sky do not have that luxury. The trend to knock sky is tiresome and unfortunately very British.

Are you suggesting they should be beyond criticism?

skavanagh.bikeradar

It depends on what the "GC Dream" at Sky consists of. If they are aiming for top 5 yesterday wasn't a good omen, but it was only one day. If they are aiming for top 10 then yesterday wasn't great but there are many hard days left and several of the riders ahead of Wiggo by small margins might be expected to have similar bad days in the coming 2 weeks. The key is what the problem was with Wiggo yesterday. If he just doesnt have the legs then he's going to find the coming stage(s) hard.

I think the best thing to do is reserve judgement until the end of Tuesday and we will know more about how Wiggo is really going. If he can't do the business on Tuesday and others in the top 10 can then he might miss out.

What I would say is that he rode sensibly once he realised he was having problems. Are there others in the group ahead of him that went a bit deeper to stay with the top men on the basis they can recover today? Let's see how everyone goes tomorrow eh, should be interesting!

Pross

Maybe Sky genuinely felt Wiggins was going to go well yesterday? In the end he looked like he bonked rather than his legs giving up on him. There were quite a few big names who got shelled a long time before him (perhaps they were aware of Armstrong's problems, waited until he got back and saw a chance to ditch a big contender?) and a lot of specialist climbers too so to say he can't climb is ridiculous, he finished in the top 20 on a mountain stage ahead of riders who's sole aim is to do well in the mountains. I would however agree that he isn't strong enough in the mountains to be a GC contender. I thought Lofkvist did well to stay close enough to help him to the finish, not sure why people expect Cummings to be up there. I've never thought of him as a climber - I know he was up there on a Giro mountain stage but that was having gained a lot of time in a break on the flat and he couldn't stay with them on the climb. I think of him as a powerful engine who can sit on the front of the bunch all day. Sky's biggest mistake is that they just don't have any decent climbing domestiques, the Italians they brought in didn't do much in the Giro mountains and for some reason they left Swift at home.

symo

IMHO, I believe Sky were right to force the pace. Otherwise this could have ended as a one climb race towards the end. This way they have seen what the GC contenders have. Thye booted a lot of people down the hill and left their GC contender fighting with the others. Plus Sky will know all their riders capabilities, how do we know if they decided to allow a high pace to develop then let their team rest, then let Wiggins calm himself before finisihing? Plus in the scheme of things Bradley Wiggins is not that far down, yes he wa caught out by the heat, but how much has Andy Schleck hurt himself by going for the stage, Sastre actually looked calm, Contador is not that far down either.

No-one knows here what Sky are planning, and there are still a few more stages to race I believe.

Pross

It was good to see a team being fairly aggressive and not waiting to the final climb. People often criticise negative racing but then when a team gives it a go they also get criticised. If Wiggins had had the legs to hang on for an extra 3km then it would have been a success with several big names losing a lot of time. Wiggins is only outside the top 10 by a few seconds, OK a podium is highly unlikely but he stands a chance of a top 5 as long as that was his one bad day.

wicked

iainf72 wrote:

wicked wrote:

All too easy to dissect every little thing AFTER the event isn't it, unfortunately Sky do not have that luxury. The trend to knock sky is tiresome and unfortunately very British.

Are you suggesting they should be beyond criticism?

Not at all. But the criticism is overboard.
They get slated for everything. First the squad is full of second rate riders (WTF!) , Rome was not built in a day and a lot of riders are under contract. The (british) riders they signed that were under contract got them slated too.
If wiggo rides defensively he gets slated (not good enough, does not attack, wheelsucker etc) so he has a go and gets slated because he cannot change pace and his team is not good enough!
Nowt wrong with criticism but sky really are damned if they do and damned if they don't . Perhaps people would be far happier if they did not bother and jacked it all in?

iainf72

wicked wrote:

Nowt wrong with criticism but sky really are damned if they do and damned if they don't . Perhaps people would be far happier if they did not bother and jacked it all in?

Cool. I agree with you. I critcise Sky now and then I don't think what they did yesterday was silly. Good aggressive racing. Wiggins didn't have it in his legs - These things happen

As Kleber said, the mumbo-jumbo and marketing aspect does make them an easy target, espeically when they don't back it up on the road.

mroli

Kleber - you don't get force fed details about the lighting on the bus. You get stories about it, because it is different. Because maybe, just maybe, in looking for their "incremental gains" or whatever it is, Sky as a bike team is using these sort of methods rather than pumping their riders full of EPO or transfused blood. That in itself is interesting - no?

Unlike force feeding, if there is an article on Sky - you can just turn the page or not click the link - or even, not post on the forum topics!

First 7 days went well for Sky - only downer was the Wiggins fail on the Prologue. Yesterday was bad, but not disasterous.

cougie

I dont think Sky made any massive mistakes - in the end the climb was just 3k too much for Bradley - but he probably wouldnt realise that til it happened.

I still think he'll be Top 10, but I think the podium is too much of an ask. (But I'd like to see it anyway)

Felt sorry for Brakjovic having to babysit Lance. If hes just riding alongside him - whats the point ? You could see that he could do much much more.

mididoctors

cougie wrote:

I dont think Sky made any massive mistakes - in the end the climb was just 3k too much for Bradley - but he probably wouldnt realise that til it happened.

I still think he'll be Top 10, but I think the podium is too much of an ask. (But I'd like to see it anyway)

Felt sorry for Brakjovic having to babysit Lance. If hes just riding alongside him - whats the point ? You could see that he could do much much more.

not sure but I think Brakjovic started going out the back before lance surprisingly.. though looked to be recovering better

wicked

iainf72 wrote:

wicked wrote:

Nowt wrong with criticism but sky really are damned if they do and damned if they don't . Perhaps people would be far happier if they did not bother and jacked it all in?

Cool. I agree with you. I critcise Sky now and then I don't think what they did yesterday was silly. Good aggressive racing. Wiggins didn't have it in his legs - These things happen

As Kleber said, the mumbo-jumbo and marketing aspect does make them an easy target, espeically when they don't back it up on the road.

I thought you may agree seeing how you seem to be one of the few (sadly) voices of reason on here
Yesterday we saw sky setting the pace but if they didn't one of two things would have happened IMHO. Firstly there may have been some attacks and wiggo would prefer an even pace or secondly some bugger else would set the pace.
But lets not let that get in the way of sky bashing

Tom Butcher

I'm a fan of Wiggo - not so keen on Sky though I don't think there was anything wrong with their tactics yesterday - but let's not have a forum where we can't criticise any rider or team without being accused of Sky bashing.

The truth is that so far this season has been a little bit disappointing for them given the budget. You can talk about Rome not being built in a day but cycling isn't a sport where teamwork is so important as say football. Astana have been pretty much rebuilt this year but they seemed to have plenty of support for Contador yesterday.

We all know WIggins is on a lot of money an his target for the year was the GC of the Tour - anything less than last year will be a relative failure - and at the moment it looks like top 10 is a more realistic target than top 4. When people say he rode sensibly to limit his losses (which is pretty much what Wiggo claims he did ) I wonder what stage they were watching - he blew up massively and lost a lot of time given that it was only 3k to the finish and the gradient wasn't particularly steep. When you add in a very poor prologue ride and failing to set the world alight on the cobbled stage you have to conclude that it's been a bad first week for the Sky leader. As I say I'm hoping WIggins can do well - but supporting a rider doesn't have to blind you to their failings.

I agree with Kleber that the team looks very much geared up for PlanB - stage wins - which suggests that despite the talk that Wiggins was in the ballpark to be on the podium at the tour Brailsford knew it wasn't likely.

Wooliferkins

It will be interesting to see how riders hold up this year as the next rest day is next Wednesday. Usually rest days are every 7 days in the Grand Tours but they've snuck a cheeky 10 dayer in here. It'll be interesting to see what effect if any it has. Is anybody keeping something in the tank to take an advantage?

Monty Dog

Sadly, for many it's not being kept in the tank but in the fridge! What you saw from Sky yesterday was an 'honest' performance - and they haven't reeled out a succession of excuses why it didn't happen. Riding tempo on a long steady climb suited Brad - unfortunately no one knew at that time he was going to blow 3k from the end. I'll be intruiged to see how many "lazarus-like" performances we see tomorrow on the Madelaine - guys who were shelled yesterday suddenly having a Landis-like recovery.

Tom Butcher

Must admit I did wonder if part of Sky's reason for going hard up the penultimate big climb was that they hoped to catch some of their rivals before they had chance to top up their form on the rest day.