Too many riders getting hit / killed by drivers.

shouldbeinbed

Heckler1974 wrote:

Tom Butcher wrote:

More of an emphasis on giving cyclists room when overtaking them would be welcome. Is there a minimum distance - I don't know - but something like don't pass within 2 metres of a cyclist when overtaking would be welcome - just something to make vehicles wait until there is room to overtake rather than forcing their way past whatever.

According to the Highway code rule 163 : •give motorcyclists, cyclists and horse riders at least as much room as you would when overtaking a car.

Hmmm, cake and eat it moment: we don't help ourselves by filtering on either side of cars milimetres from their wing wirrors. cars see us choosing to pass them that close (them invariably without having had the experience of a car whizzing inches by them on a bike) what are they supposed to think when we deem it to be acceptable to be in motion so close to them?

its one of those where we as cyclists want it both ways. I can pass you however I see fit on my bike because I find it inconvenient to sit in a queue of cars but by God if you try and do the same to me in your car there'll be hell to pay on the internet.

MattC59

Bozman wrote:

I've nearly been knocked off a couple of times by packs/groups/clubs that ride around tight windy country lanes upto 5 abreast, if i'd been driving a car at the time....god knows!

I had bump with a group that was out in the lanes around me, during summer '09. I was driving at a sensible pace down the lanes (I ride them too, so I know what they're like) came around a corner to be confronted by about 6 or 7 bikes, filling the road and heading straight for me. I stopped, guess what, they didn't. 4 of them hit the front of my car at speed, causing a fair amount of damage to my car (dents and scratches), but a great deal more damage to their bikes. There were three trashed wheels in the aftermath, as well as dings to frames components and riders. As you can imagine, it was pointed out that I was solely to blame, I was called all the names under the sun and the police were called. It didnt' occur to any of them that I was stationary and they were taking up the whole road. Fortunately, a local farmer in his tractor had stopped behind me and saw the whole incident, and as the Police had been called, names and addresses were taken. I put a claim into my insurance company, my car was fixed and with the Police reference number and the riders names and addresses, my insurance company claimed against the cyclists who hit me.

Nice.

Couldn't help laughing my ass off

I ride those lanes regularly and have nearly been wiped out by the same group. The farmer also stated that he'd had run ins with them in the past.

nickwill

Back to the original post.
It strikes me that the main problem is a lack of awareness about what it's like to ride a bike.
A public information campaign explaining things from a cyclist's point of view would help. Some public information films with helmet cam footage could show why we need space to avoid potholes etc. This campaign could also explain that it is not against the rules of the road to ride two abreast.
I've always felt that most of the budget used to provide cycle lanes and other forms of infrastructure would be better spent on the education of road users rather than in reinforcing much of the general population's view that we should not be on the road!

rick_chasey

shouldbeinbed wrote:

its one of those where we as cyclists want it both ways. I can pass you however I see fit on my bike because I find it inconvenient to sit in a queue of cars but by God if you try and do the same to me in your car there'll be hell to pay on the internet.

Pretty much.

Bikes passing close through filtered traffic doesn't endanger the driver, and it makes cycling more convenient.

Cyclists, like in the Netherlands, should have right of way over cars.

MattC59

Rick Chasey wrote:

Cyclists, like in the Netherlands, should have right of way over cars.

:roll:

giant_man

Nickwill wrote:

Back to the original post.
It strikes me that the main problem is a lack of awareness about what it's like to ride a bike.
A public information campaign explaining things from a cyclist's point of view would help. Some public information films with helmet cam footage could show why we need space to avoid potholes etc. This campaign could also explain that it is not against the rules of the road to ride two abreast.
I've always felt that most of the budget used to provide cycle lanes and other forms of infrastructure would be better spent on the education of road users rather than in reinforcing much of the general population's view that we should not be on the road!

Not only that, but it needs more in the Highway Code and driving instructors should be made aware of the dangers of being on the same roads as cyclists, AND there should be something in driving tests to back this up. Until this happens, and until the average driver is more aware of the cyclist, will the cycling casualty and fatality figures come down.

shouldbeinbed

Rick Chasey wrote:

shouldbeinbed wrote:

its one of those where we as cyclists want it both ways. I can pass you however I see fit on my bike because I find it inconvenient to sit in a queue of cars but by God if you try and do the same to me in your car there'll be hell to pay on the internet.

Pretty much.

Bikes passing close through filtered traffic doesn't endanger the driver, and it makes cycling more convenient.

Cyclists, like in the Netherlands, should have right of way over cars.

Hmmmm

not to the motorist it doesn't. what makes it more convenient to them is getting past us as quickly as they can 100 yards down the road and if its more convenient for them to do that inches away from our bar end so they don't hit the oncomming car your own argument works against you - you can't demand convenience for yourself and then expect courtesy over convenience form the rest of the world

did you selectively read the post as well as quoting it out of context?

the bit you choose not to quote

shouldbeinbed wrote:

Hmmm, cake and eat it moment: we don't help ourselves by filtering on either side of cars milimetres from their wing wirrors. cars see us choosing to pass them that close (them invariably without having had the experience of a car whizzing inches by them on a bike) what are they supposed to think when we deem it to be acceptable to be in motion so close to them?

99% of motorists don't have the cycling experience to differentiate the danger posed, they simply see us in motion near to them and whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

Rick Chasey wrote:

Cyclists, like in the Netherlands, should have right of way over cars.

<excerpt from the full quote above> ok but whilst were in the realms of never going to happen can we have it eternally warm with a cooling tailwind too.

753forme

Two observations - you kill some one in a car - and often get a very light sentence compared with killing someone in another way. The law favours motorists in this country - would be great to go dutch but I don't see it happening.
Also cyclists don't help themselves - why do people ride a bike with a bloody ipod on? Your ears are often your first line of defence to a problem behind you.

ademort

I live in the Province of Zeeland in the Netherlands and the police have just released there road deaths totals for the year 2010. It goes as follows,
Total deaths on the roads 31, broken down as follows.
Cyclists 7

Motorcyclists 6

Pedestrians 2

Moped riders 1

invalid car 1

Horse/Cart 1

Motor vehicle 13

It also states that one-third of all accidents involve people from the age of 18-34

8 people killed were between the age of 50-59
10 people killed were over the age of 65.
Just for the record Zeeland has a population of about 380,000.
Does anybody know how this compares to the Uk or any other Country for that matter.
Ademort

rick_chasey

Zeeland's hardly typical of anywhere!

For a start I'd imagine it's considerably quieter on a Sunday morning than the rest of the Netherlands! Even for cyclists!

pilot_pete

Sad news from the BBC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-12135980 Former boxer Gary Mason killed in a collision with a van in South London.....

PP

pilot_pete

Cyclists, like in the Netherlands, should have right of way over cars.

Why do some think this is so ridiculous an idea? Granted it is highly unlikely to be enshrined in law, BUT look at maritime and aviation law where faster/ more powerful/ more agile craft give way to slower/less powerful/ less agile craft. It ain't rocket science; a car is faster, more powerful, more manouvreable (in road terms) than a bicycle. Why would a rule requiring cars to give way to bikes be so rediculous? It wouldn't be popular, far from it, but a culture change is the only way to change long held behaviors. Unfortunately we live in a society that is always rushing, always trying to do too many things in a short space of time, with so many distractions, that perceives that behind the wheel you can in some way become detached and act in a manner which many would never do when not in their car.....

I have two friends, one male, one female, both mid-40s who, whilst chatting over dinner on separate occassions both displayed their anti-cycling thoughts. They are both nice people, but when challenged about these views (the usual cyclists in the way, not giving way, riding two abreast etc etc) displayed 'road rage' at dinner! They feel they are SO right and that cyclists are a pain the arse, shouldn't be on the road (the old don't pay road tax argument) deserve what they get etc. I found it astounding that these 'middle England' representatives could be so bigotted and ill informed. Didn't matter what I said, even showing them a copy of the Highway Code and what it says..............

Some form of education through things like public information films and a constant stream of 'message' will be required to change views, a bit like drink driving campaigns to make it socially unacceptible. Something like a 'Tonight' program which shows the grief and pain caused to a family by an incosiderate motorists actions.

PP

ademort

Pilot Pete wrote:

Cyclists, like in the Netherlands, should have right of way over cars.

Why do some think this is so ridiculous an idea? Granted it is highly unlikely to be enshrined in law, BUT look at maritime and aviation law where faster/ more powerful/ more agile craft give way to slower/less powerful/ less agile craft. It ain't rocket science; a car is faster, more powerful, more manouvreable (in road terms) than a bicycle. Why would a rule requiring cars to give way to bikes be so rediculous? It wouldn't be popular, far from it, but a culture change is the only way to change long held behaviors. Unfortunately we live in a society that is always rushing, always trying to do too many things in a short space of time, with so many distractions, that perceives that behind the wheel you can in some way become detached and act in a manner which many would never do when not in their car.....

I have two friends, one male, one female, both mid-40s who, whilst chatting over dinner on separate occassions both displayed their anti-cycling thoughts. They are both nice people, but when challenged about these views (the usual cyclists in the way, not giving way, riding two abreast etc etc) displayed 'road rage' at dinner! They feel they are SO right and that cyclists are a pain the ars*, shouldn't be on the road (the old don't pay road tax argument) deserve what they get etc. I found it astounding that these 'middle England' representatives could be so bigotted and ill informed. Didn't matter what I said, even showing them a copy of the Highway Code and what it says..............

Some form of education through things like public information films and a constant stream of 'message' will be required to change views, a bit like drink driving campaigns to make it socially unacceptible. Something like a 'Tonight' program which shows the grief and pain caused to a family by an incosiderate motorists actions.

PP

I dont agree with the above remark. Cyclists do not always have right of way over Cars.It depends on the situation.
Ademort

dilemna

2 cyclists killed first one not too far from me.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-ca ... e-12201871

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gl ... e-12201439

rick_chasey

dilemna wrote:

2 cyclists killed first one not too far from me.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-ca ... e-12201871

Christ.

The first one - I've often said the A10 is lethal. Very unfortunate and unhappy to be proven correct.

Seriously, if anyone is riding round there - there are a lot of very very quiet roads that run parallel to the A10. Don't use it!

oxenhoper

Sadly talented racer Lewis Balyckyi was killed today... don't know the full details but have heard it was with a van

753forme

Used to be a member of his club. He was only 18. In collision with white Ford transit on North Road in Bretherton Lancs for those who know it. Another dead cyclist. Feel angry and sh!te. So sorry for his family. Police appealing for witnesses.

Mike Healey

Also a report that a car hit one of th epolice cars which was parked while the collision was being investigated

Pross

ademort wrote:

I live in the Province of Zeeland in the Netherlands and the police have just released there road deaths totals for the year 2010. It goes as follows,
Total deaths on the roads 31, broken down as follows.
Cyclists 7

Motorcyclists 6

Pedestrians 2

Moped riders 1

invalid car 1

Horse/Cart 1

Motor vehicle 13

It also states that one-third of all accidents involve people from the age of 18-34

8 people killed were between the age of 50-59
10 people killed were over the age of 65.
Just for the record Zeeland has a population of about 380,000.
Does anybody know how this compares to the Uk or any other Country for that matter.
Ademort

Great Britain had 2,222 road deaths (of which 104 were cyclists) in 2009 population just under 60 million. So death rate as a whole relative to population is more than double in Zeeland and cycling death rates almost 10 times higher! :shock: This comes as a real surprise as the Netherlands is often held up as being an example in road safety. Of course there are probably many more cyclists on the road in Zeeland but the overall rate is particularly surprising.

rick_chasey

Pross wrote:

ademort wrote:

I live in the Province of Zeeland in the Netherlands and the police have just released there road deaths totals for the year 2010. It goes as follows,
Total deaths on the roads 31, broken down as follows.
Cyclists 7

Motorcyclists 6

Pedestrians 2

Moped riders 1

invalid car 1

Horse/Cart 1

Motor vehicle 13

It also states that one-third of all accidents involve people from the age of 18-34

8 people killed were between the age of 50-59
10 people killed were over the age of 65.
Just for the record Zeeland has a population of about 380,000.
Does anybody know how this compares to the Uk or any other Country for that matter.
Ademort

Great Britain had 2,222 road deaths (of which 104 were cyclists) in 2009 population just under 60 million. So death rate as a whole relative to population is more than double in Zeeland and cycling death rates almost 10 times higher! :shock: This comes as a real surprise as the Netherlands is often held up as being an example in road safety. Of course there are probably many more cyclists on the road in Zeeland but the overall rate is particularly surprising.

The difference is that Holland is massively more densely populated.

Has a big impact on the figures.

taurruslevy

I think there should be a whole book of laws according to bikers' safety, which will include subjects such as -
* Defining obvious riding routes
* Attaching safety equipment every ride
* Defining more and less safe hours to drive.

P_Tucker

y'know, whilst everyone knows someone who's been killed, cycling is actually been getting safer over the last 30 years:

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloads/ ... 0_Ch12.pdf

(see page 11)

Pross

Rick Chasey wrote:

Pross wrote:

ademort wrote:

I live in the Province of Zeeland in the Netherlands and the police have just released there road deaths totals for the year 2010. It goes as follows,
Total deaths on the roads 31, broken down as follows.
Cyclists 7

Motorcyclists 6

Pedestrians 2

Moped riders 1

invalid car 1

Horse/Cart 1

Motor vehicle 13

It also states that one-third of all accidents involve people from the age of 18-34

8 people killed were between the age of 50-59
10 people killed were over the age of 65.
Just for the record Zeeland has a population of about 380,000.
Does anybody know how this compares to the Uk or any other Country for that matter.
Ademort

Great Britain had 2,222 road deaths (of which 104 were cyclists) in 2009 population just under 60 million. So death rate as a whole relative to population is more than double in Zeeland and cycling death rates almost 10 times higher! :shock: This comes as a real surprise as the Netherlands is often held up as being an example in road safety. Of course there are probably many more cyclists on the road in Zeeland but the overall rate is particularly surprising.

The difference is that Holland is massively more densely populated.

Has a big impact on the figures.

But Zeeland has a population density of around 200 per square km which is about the same as Sedgemoor district in rural Somerset!

FJS

Pross wrote:

ademort wrote:

I live in the Province of Zeeland in the Netherlands and the police have just released there road deaths totals for the year 2010. It goes as follows,
Total deaths on the roads 31, broken down as follows.
Cyclists 7

Motorcyclists 6

Pedestrians 2

Moped riders 1

invalid car 1

Horse/Cart 1

Motor vehicle 13

It also states that one-third of all accidents involve people from the age of 18-34

8 people killed were between the age of 50-59
10 people killed were over the age of 65.
Just for the record Zeeland has a population of about 380,000.
Does anybody know how this compares to the Uk or any other Country for that matter.
Ademort

Great Britain had 2,222 road deaths (of which 104 were cyclists) in 2009 population just under 60 million. So death rate as a whole relative to population is more than double in Zeeland and cycling death rates almost 10 times higher! :shock: This comes as a real surprise as the Netherlands is often held up as being an example in road safety. Of course there are probably many more cyclists on the road in Zeeland but the overall rate is particularly surprising.

But that is the whole point. Problem here is that those stats don't provide info on how many people cycle. From memory in the UK about 0.5 % of all trips/miles/whatever is done per bike, and in the Netherlands abour 30% - gives a completely different perspective. It's cycle deaths per km cycled or per trip you need to know to make any meaningful comparison.

Pross

I agree in part but it is actual numbers that is the critical factor really, i.e. for a population of 1,000,000 to have 20 cycling deaths is worse than a population of 1,000,000 having 10 cycling deaths irrespective of how many kms the two populations cycle. 1 death is 1 too many but 0 is never going to happen. There is also a counter argument that when there is such a high number of cyclists on the road then motorists should be far more familiar with them and there should be less deaths overall. There are figures per km for the UK (and I am sure there are for Holland too).

P_Tucker

Pross wrote:

I agree in part but it is actual numbers that is the critical factor really, i.e. for a population of 1,000,000 to have 20 cycling deaths is worse than a population of 1,000,000 having 10 cycling deaths irrespective of how many kms the two populations cycle. 1 death is 1 too many but 0 is never going to happen. There is also a counter argument that when there is such a high number of cyclists on the road then motorists should be far more familiar with them and there should be less deaths overall. There are figures per km for the UK (and I am sure there are for Holland too).

Disagree. All I really care about is how likely I am to die - and deaths per km is a reasonable proxy for this.

rick_chasey

Pross wrote:

But Zeeland has a population density of around 200 per square km which is about the same as Sedgemoor district in rural Somerset!

Like I said, Zeeland is a strange atypical place.

FJS

Pross wrote:

I agree in part but it is actual numbers that is the critical factor really, i.e. for a population of 1,000,000 to have 20 cycling deaths is worse than a population of 1,000,000 having 10 cycling deaths irrespective of how many kms the two populations cycle.

Disagree. Of course it depends on what you want to assess, but there are very few angles where absolute numbers would be the 'critical factor'. Say, if you'd have figures saying that there are more accidents involving snowmobiles in Finland than in Egypt in absolute numbers, that doesn't mean that riding a snowmobile is safer in Egypt than in Finland. And if you haven't been to Holland, the differences in cycle usage with the UK are such that yes, this is a meaningful metaphor.

Pross wrote:

1 death is 1 too many

absolutely.

Pross wrote:

There is also a counter argument that when there is such a high number of cyclists on the road then motorists should be far more familiar with them and there should be less deaths overall.

That is the idea, and it's definitely, and extremely clearly so, my personal experience cycling in The Netherlands and the UK.

Pross wrote:

There are figures per km for the UK (and I am sure there are for Holland too).

Would be interesting to see them

Rick Chasey wrote:

Like I said, Zeeland is a strange atypical place.

Agreed - in some ways it more resembles Belgium than The Netherlands, and Belgium has more traffic accidents/deaths than The Netherlands (in general, not just cycling)

Ron Stuart

Out here in one of the most under populated counties in England we are suffering from an epidemic of hit and run drivers and I am sure we aren’t the only county.

I was hit from behind last March by a hit and run driver and ended up in Hospital, the Police spent virtually no time on the case.

Monday Jan 24th 2011 'Cyclists knocked off bikes' made the front page of the local paper the Shropshire Star. One cyclist was hit from behind, the previous evening and knocked into the verge whilst the offending vehicle made off. The injured man was discovered by a passing motorist (he was wearing hi-viz clothing and using lights). In a separate incident the previous Thursday a man fell from his bike after being hit by a vehicle. The vehicle failed to stop. Police are appealing for info.

Is this lot part of Cameron's Big Society if so then there is little hope I'm afraid.

Yes IMO in a lot of respects I say the opposite of dear old Harold Macmillan that is "we have never had it so bad" and to think that there are young Brits dying in Afghanistan supposedly looking after the well being of this rubbish. :x

rob_spedding

So what do you all think to this campaign?

http://magazine.bikeradar.com/2011/01/2 ... a-cyclist/