Commuting and the '40% tax bracket'

rjsterry

DonDaddyD wrote:

Challenge the taboo and they all come out screaming.

My bike costs £350. This has always been cheap to me. Many of my friends and peers both middle class and other have often commented on its expense. The expense of repairing it and replacing parts and the expense of accessories. I told Mrs DDD that I bought some cheap mitts for £25 she gawked. Needless to say I don't apply a cheap or expensive notion to her shoes.

Of course the justification behind what is expensive and what isn't is subjective and determined by what an individual places value. So I'm not going to argue this any further than having spoken to some who earn less than £17,000per year, to them cycling appears to expensive.

Olivia,

How are those high heels and did that girl ever get work after being made redundant due to her weight? Is she ok, not psychological scared developed an eating disorder or anything, no?

Live the World through my eyes and you may find an experience where senior bosses/peers etc are less forgiving. I've been met with both wonderful opportunity and great prejudice. You're right not all are c*nts but some are or have been and haven't even realised it.

Blimey, no wonder you're thinking of moving job. Is Olivia anyone we should know (or avoid)?

_Brun_

DonDaddyD wrote:

Challenge the taboo and they all come out screaming.

The bicycle is commonly acknowledged as the most utilitarian form of transport ever invented. You're not challenging taboos any more than I would be if I claimed the sky was bright green.

wgwarburton

rjsterry wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

...My bike costs £350. This has always been cheap to me. Many of my friends and peers both middle class and other have often commented on its expense. The expense of repairing it and replacing parts and the expense of accessories. ...

That is quite steep. If you are a competent mechanic you don't need to spend anything like that much.
....

Blimey, no wonder you're thinking of moving job. Is Olivia anyone we should know

Yes

(or avoid)?

No

Cheers,
W.

DonDaddyD

Would it make you all happy if I wrote:

Cyclo-commuting can be expensive

Stevo_666

WGWarburton wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

...THe removal of the allowance is odd as it means that between about £100k-£112k the marginal rate of tax is very high - an employee loses £1 of their eprsonal allowance for every £2 earned over £100k until the personal allowance is effectively zero around £112k pa. It was probably seen as a way of getting more out of higher paid employees without raising the toip rate even further or have it cut in earlier - which probably would look worse.

It's all ridiculously complicated- the bands, rates and distribution of where the costs fall (employer vs employee) have all been tweaked by successive govenments to achieve particular goals (or headlines, perhaps). Recall the furore recently when labour tried to tweak the bottom end of the system (10% band) and miscalculated the financial impact & political fallout!
The dividends vs income split referred to earlier is another example of attempted tweaking at the margins- the idea was to close a "loophole" that let people avoid tax if they operated as a business. It's caused a huge amount of stress and confusion without raising any useful amount of money, according to many reports. Similarly, there was a move to stop people shifting income to their partners in order to reduce their tax bills that was challenged in the courts and cost a lot of money.

Successive governments claim they will simplify the tax system, but the temptation to tweak it to political ends is strong.

Cheers,
W.

Agree - I work in the tax planning 'business' and the complexity of the tax rules in the UK makes my head hurt (luckily I deal with overseas stuff more). Some of the stuff you mention is not simple but in the corporate arena it is a step up even from that. They have been talking about simplifying the system for donkeys years but I seriously doubt anyone will take this on in the foreseeable future given the amount of work it would entail - it's easier to fiddle with the existing system, just making it more and more complex.

I could say I have a vested interested in keeping things complex but really it is ridiculous here and its getting to the stage where on the more complex stuff, neither side is clear on how things should pan out which means lots of cost, delay and uncertainty. Only the USA comes close in my experience.

Specialized Needs

rjsterry wrote:

Is Olivia anyone we should know (or avoid)?

Olivia

DonDaddyD wrote:

Would it make you all happy if I wrote:

Cyclo-commuting can be expensive

Somehow, I doubt it

hells

I do not earn a huge amount of money and I never will unless I do tones and tones of overtime but I am not poor either, I will never be in the 40% tax bracket. I do not come from a rich background. I cycle commute and I find it the cheapest, most reliable and most enjoyable way of doing so. I don't use a BSO to get to work although I used to when I was a student and started cycling. I don't find that I have to replace the bike parts very often at all even on my leisure bikes which rack up alot of milage. Cycling for both sport and commuting is only as expensive as you want it to be.

At the main station in which I work there are about 4 people who commute year round every day in all conditions including myself, at the moment there is a cyclist exploision due to good weather. No one cares how we get to work although some people say it's good because it frees up the limited car parking for those who come from further afield.

The only negatives are I often get asked why do cyclist RLJ etc when I do not do this myself and am no more responsible for the actions of other cyclists than car drivers are for all other motorists.

bigmat

DonDaddyD wrote:

I told Mrs DDD that I bought some cheap mitts for £25 she gawked.

I just "gawked"! A cheap pair of mitts for me is £2 from Aldi, and they do a perfectly good job. I'm sure I could justify some more expensive ones if I had painful hands or something, but £25 is never cheap. This may be why you find cyclo-commuting expensive; I find it incredibly cheap, I'm happy to commute in cheap lycras from Lidl / Aldi with baggies on top, general casual gear and decent stuff that is no longer good for "best". Bike costs practically nothing to maintain (new brake blocks every now and again, occasional drivetrain upgrades but parts can be sourced cheaply on ebay) and I can do most fettling myself. I think it costs as much (or as little) as you really want it to cost....

Headhuunter

DonDaddyD wrote:

Challenge the taboo and they all come out screaming.

My bike costs £350.

I'm not screaming but your bike costs you £350, what? Per year in maintanence? If so that is expensive... I doubt I spend more than about £100 on bike related bits and repairs per year...

tailwindhome

DonDaddyD wrote:

Would it make you all happy if I wrote:

Cyclo-commuting can be expensive

You could take it out altogether as it's irrelevant.

Your OP should have been.

"I've been offered a better job with more money, do you think they'll like me? And do I still pay tax now that I'm important and earing 'considerably more than yew'"



More constructively there was a thread on senior managers attitude to cycle commuting started some time ago by a poster based in Spain (sorry I can't remember your name)

jonginge

Headhuunter wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Challenge the taboo and they all come out screaming.

My bike costs £350.

I'm not screaming but your bike costs you £350, what? Per year in maintanence? If so that is expensive... I doubt I spend more than about £100 on bike related bits and repairs per year...

Even if it did then that's still significantly less than the PA cost of PT. A zone1-3 season ticket costs around 1.2k. Even I don't spend that much on my commuter+gear.

DonDaddyD

Headhuunter wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Challenge the taboo and they all come out screaming.

My bike costs £350.

I'm not screaming but your bike costs you £350, what? Per year in maintanence? If so that is expensive... I doubt I spend more than about £100 on bike related bits and repairs per year...

I worked it out. It cost £350 to buy and has been about as much each year to keep it running.

My Kharma has cost less.

rjsterry

Specialized Needs wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Is Olivia anyone we should know (or avoid)?

Olivia

DonDaddyD wrote:

Would it make you all happy if I wrote:

Cyclo-commuting can be expensive

Somehow, I doubt it

Aha. Usernames be damned. That post makes a bit more sense now.

DonDaddyD

TailWindHome wrote:

Your OP should have been.

"I've been offered a better job with more money, do you think they'll like me? And do I still pay tax now that I'm important and earing 'considerably more than yew'"

That's not what I'm saying. How much I earn is irrelevant.

I just wanted to know how tax worked. The fact that I don't know should indicate how little I earn as its never been a huge factor. However with the recession, elections etc its come up.

Secondly, of course they'll like me, I hope. But I do fear having my professionalism judged by anything the naysayers can find that's different about me and can be complained about. I've had a hard few months....

suzyb

Why should any manager care how you get to work as long as you get there on time and are professional (both attitude and looks wise) when there.

rolf_f

MatHammond wrote:

I just "gawked"! A cheap pair of mitts for me is £2 from Aldi, and they do a perfectly good job. I'm sure I could justify some more expensive ones if I had painful hands or something, but £25 is never cheap....

That is an interesting point though. Everything is probably too cheap these days - £2 for a pair of gloves is not sustainable. Apple can only flog its iCrap for the prices it does because it can pay the Chinese workers 30p per hour. In reality, even £25 for a pair of gloves probably is cheap compared to how much clothes cost, say, 40 years ago. We only perceive a £350 bike to be expensive because it gets in the way of other consumer items we want to buy - in the past, we didn't buy those other items because they didn't exist. £350 - a weeks salary if you earn 18k.

rjsterry

TailWindHome wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Would it make you all happy if I wrote:

Cyclo-commuting can be expensive

You could take it out altogether as it's irrelevant.

Your OP should have been.

"I've been offered a better job with more money, do you think they'll like me? And do I still pay tax now that I'm important and earing 'considerably more than yew'"



More constructively there was a thread on senior managers attitude to cycle commuting started some time ago by a poster based in Spain (sorry I can't remember your name)

You could sell the cycling to your new management as a benefit for them, as your increased fitness will mean fewer days lost to illness. The sight of you wandering into the office in lycra is a small price to pay/additional benefit on top.

Just to add one more voice to the general consensus, although i was already cycling reasonably regularly, when I moved from Putney to Carshalton, had the littl'un (now a more or less single income household) and went down to a 4-day week for 9 months (all in the same year), cycling the extra distance and extra days was pretty much the only option. The absolute cheapest I can get in on PT is around £1450pa, so it was a no brainer

wgwarburton

Rolf F wrote:

...That is an interesting point though. Everything is probably too cheap these days - £2 for a pair of gloves is not sustainable. Apple can only flog its iCrap for the prices it does because it can pay the Chinese workers 30p per hour. In reality, even £25 for a pair of gloves probably is cheap compared to how much clothes cost, say, 40 years ago. We only perceive a £350 bike to be expensive because it gets in the way of other consumer items we want to buy - in the past, we didn't buy those other items because they didn't exist. £350 - a weeks salary if you earn 18k.

It's wider than that. A bike used to be an expensive enabling technology (you could go to work further away, increasing your work/career options). Now that role is taken by the car and a bike is an alternative. Most bikes are sold as recreational, rather than utility goods (or are built to an artificially low price) and hence don't have the durability required for utility use- maintenance is high because the parts arn't designed for prolonged use in difficult conditions.

Cheers,
W.

daviesee

Rolf F wrote:

MatHammond wrote:

I just "gawked"! A cheap pair of mitts for me is £2 from Aldi, and they do a perfectly good job. I'm sure I could justify some more expensive ones if I had painful hands or something, but £25 is never cheap....

That is an interesting point though. Everything is probably too cheap these days - £2 for a pair of gloves is not sustainable. Apple can only flog its iCrap for the prices it does because it can pay the Chinese workers 30p per hour. In reality, even £25 for a pair of gloves probably is cheap compared to how much clothes cost, say, 40 years ago. We only perceive a £350 bike to be expensive because it gets in the way of other consumer items we want to buy - in the past, we didn't buy those other items because they didn't exist. £350 - a weeks salary if you earn 18k.

An interesting point indeed.

I agree on the gloves thing. £2 would barely cover administration, transportation & packaging. Somebody is losing out big time. Everytime somebody gets a bargain, somebody is getting shafted :evil:

My first road bike, a Peugot (non-specific grade frame) & Suntour gears etc - so nothing special - in the early '80s cost around £150. Or around a month's wages! :shock:
Before anyone splutters, my starting take home pay was £32/week.

My current Colnago/Campag cost around 1 month average wages today. So same cost basis, better bike.

wgwarburton

rjsterry wrote:

...You could sell the cycling to your new management as a benefit for them, as your increased fitness will mean fewer days lost to illness. The sight of you wandering into the office in lycra is a small price to pay/additional benefit on top.
...

I would say the issue is the reverse- how a cycling manager is perceived by the proles. Much of the senior management issue with cycling mid-managers may be around a concern that they'll lose credibility (and hence underperform) if "the workers" think that they are a bit of a berk for turning up at work in fancy dress, dripping with sweat.

It's easier to lead if people respect you. If cycling to work makes you a laughing stock amongst those you are trying to lead then you have a problem, even if the problem is of their making. As the saying goes "perception is reality".

Cheers,
W.

bigmat

daviesee wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

MatHammond wrote:

I just "gawked"! A cheap pair of mitts for me is £2 from Aldi, and they do a perfectly good job. I'm sure I could justify some more expensive ones if I had painful hands or something, but £25 is never cheap....

That is an interesting point though. Everything is probably too cheap these days - £2 for a pair of gloves is not sustainable. Apple can only flog its iCrap for the prices it does because it can pay the Chinese workers 30p per hour. In reality, even £25 for a pair of gloves probably is cheap compared to how much clothes cost, say, 40 years ago. We only perceive a £350 bike to be expensive because it gets in the way of other consumer items we want to buy - in the past, we didn't buy those other items because they didn't exist. £350 - a weeks salary if you earn 18k.

An interesting point indeed.

I agree on the gloves thing. £2 would barely cover administration, transportation & packaging. Somebody is losing out big time. Everytime somebody gets a bargain, somebody is getting shafted :evil:

My first road bike, a Peugot (non-specific grade frame) & Suntour gears etc - so nothing special - in the early '80s cost around £150. Or around a month's wages! :shock:
Before anyone splutters, my starting take home pay was £32/week.

My current Colnago/Campag cost around 1 month average wages today. So same cost basis, better bike.

This is all true, but the reality is you can get things for those prices so any assessment of cost of cycling should take them into account. I'm also dubious that the mark up on the £25 gloves results in any more favourable treatment of the end producer, probably just a nice fat profit margin further down the line. Everything is overly cheap these days, food, clothes, cars, bikes, media - people want it all and when they can't afford the already artificially low prices they just borrow carelessly. We're all doomed!

rolf_f

WGWarburton wrote:

Mst bikes are sold as recreational, rather than utility goods (or are built to an artificially low price) and hence don't have the durability required for utility use- maintenance is high because the parts arn't designed for prolonged use in difficult conditions.

Indeed - this re-iterates my point about modern consumables that didn't exist in the past. In the past, you bought a bike. That was it - stuff didn't wear out. The term 'upgrade', at least to the non-adult, didn't exist. It never occurred to me that I might want to change my saddle for another, or my wheels etc. If you replaced them, it was because you'd buckled them bouncing off kerbs. Pretty much the only things I ever bought for my bike were a saddle bag and a bottle cage and bottle. There wasn't any specific clothing either - nor gloves. Much of what we need to buy now isn't a necessity at all.; just something that makes it better which is good, but not the same thing.

MatHammond wrote:

This is all true, but the reality is you can get things for those prices so any assessment of cost of cycling should take them into account. I'm also dubious that the mark up on the £25 gloves results in any more favourable treatment of the end producer, probably just a nice fat profit margin further down the line.

Yes and no - you can get gear at that sort of price made, for example, in the UK by people earning a sustainable wage; you can't achieve that with £2 gloves. Whether the ones you bought are made by slaves, or whether you checked where your purchase was made and went for something that didn't involve exploitation isn't the point.

Mark Elvin

What the hell does it matter what others think? If they look down on you due to you riding a bike, stuff em.

Orleandrew

lost_in_thought wrote:

There were no objections, it's always been seen as admirable.

+1 Everyone at my work is always pretty impressed.

Clever Pun

DonDaddyD wrote:

Would it make you all happy if I wrote:

Cyclo-commuting can be expensive

but it's a really dumb thing to say... even for you

Here's one in the same bracket

String can be long

rhext

Answers:

1) I was looked on as a person! I seriously don't think any of my colleagues care two hoots about how I choose to get to work.

2) I don't understand the question, what objections?

It's as expensive as you choose it to be, although rarely anything like as expensive as using/owning a car. And the people I see cyclo-commuting seem to me to be a fairly wide cross-section of society. I certainly don't look at most of them and think "affluent and well-off".

Headhuunter

daviesee wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

MatHammond wrote:

I just "gawked"! A cheap pair of mitts for me is £2 from Aldi, and they do a perfectly good job. I'm sure I could justify some more expensive ones if I had painful hands or something, but £25 is never cheap....

That is an interesting point though. Everything is probably too cheap these days - £2 for a pair of gloves is not sustainable. Apple can only flog its iCrap for the prices it does because it can pay the Chinese workers 30p per hour. In reality, even £25 for a pair of gloves probably is cheap compared to how much clothes cost, say, 40 years ago. We only perceive a £350 bike to be expensive because it gets in the way of other consumer items we want to buy - in the past, we didn't buy those other items because they didn't exist. £350 - a weeks salary if you earn 18k.

An interesting point indeed.

I agree on the gloves thing. £2 would barely cover administration, transportation & packaging. Somebody is losing out big time. Everytime somebody gets a bargain, somebody is getting shafted :evil:

My first road bike, a Peugot (non-specific grade frame) & Suntour gears etc - so nothing special - in the early '80s cost around £150. Or around a month's wages! :shock:
Before anyone splutters, my starting take home pay was £32/week.

My current Colnago/Campag cost around 1 month average wages today. So same cost basis, better bike.

However, this bike price comparison doesn't completely hold water as I assume that when you bought your Peugeot, your 1st road bike your salary at £150 per months was a young person/trainee/graduate salary as I assume you were at the start of your career. Now you are able to buy a Colnago/Campag bike for 1 months salary because your experience makes you more expensive and you are able to command an above average pay packet. Just like your 1st car was probably some rusty heap that would barely get you down the road and now you are able to afford something more sparkly...

I'm not disagreeing though that for me to be able to buy a pair of LIDL cycle gloves for £2, someone in the third world is being shafted. Did anyone see that doc last year about Primark? A lot of the detailing on its women's clothing was hand stitched by children as young as 6 working from slums in big cities in India. However paying £25 for a pair of Specialized/brand name gloves doesn't guarantee fair trade, it just guarantees fat profits for Specialized.

lost_in_thought

DonDaddyD wrote:

Olivia,

How are those high heels and did that girl ever get work after being made redundant due to her weight? Is she ok, not mentally wounded, developed an eating disorder or anything, no?
.

Lawrence,

Does using first names give posts extra weight? Thought not.

For god's sake man. Do you actually think I said 'we're getting a new temp because you barely fit behind the desk, fatty'? For starters, do you have any clue just how against the law that would be? Evidently not.

And OMG a dress code... wow all bosses must be gits to have those. Is it kaftans and jammies to work at your place?

And there are nasty people in all walks of life, salary has no bearing on proportion.

DonDaddyD

OK maybe I'm over analysing the whole cycling thing. But I've had my far share of criticism for doing so.

Affordability, expense and value for money are all subjective shaped around your earnings and disposable income. That said, I thought nothing of handing over £25 for a pair of mitts and £100 on road shoes but would only now spend £35 - £50 on a pair of trainers.

Clever Pun wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Would it make you all happy if I wrote:

Cyclo-commuting can be expensive

but it's a really dumb thing to say... even for you

Here's one in the same bracket

String can be long

Right that's it, you and me sunshine! Outside, NOW!

Thumbwar!

wgwarburton

Mark Elvin wrote:

What the hell does it matter what others think? If they look down on you due to you riding a bike, stuff em.

It matters if their view of you results in your being less effective in your job. It's hard to lead/manage/inspire/etc people who think you are a fool. Whether they are right or wrong is, in practice, irrelevant.

Cheers,
W.