Floyd -- he wrote us a letter...

Garry H

BikingBernie wrote:

Back on topic, does anyone know more about what Julien DeVries, formerly a mechanic at USP, is claimed to have said in the past about doping by Armstrong and co? His name is a new one to me.

Julien De Vries was also the mechanic for Merckx, accoring to the Road to Roubaix DVD.

ratsbeyfus

No tA Doctor wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

probably right Iain. if Landis says it to the media again..we'll have litigation. So, let's see.

Landis has only spoken to ESPN once I think? The emails were kept private for a month until someone from US Cycling decided to send them to various media outlets.

This is actually one of the most interesting bits about this entire thing, though has gone largely uncommented. The emails were supposedly circulating for ages before being published. How did they get out? Who leaked them, and why? It's not something we're likely to ever know, but the fact that Landis doesn't appear to have intended them for publication is interesting in itself.

I wonder also about email exchanges that would have taken place between those circulating them...

On a different note, spooling back to the Indurain debate my own belief is that he was doped to the eyeballs. Unlike LA though, he doesn't have anywhere near the amount of witness testimony and circumstantial evidence pointing at him directly. He hasn't got Delgado explaining how they stopped the team bus in the Pyrenees, or an assistant telling how she disposed a bloody needle, or a positive A sample with an untested B sample in the background.... If he did then I'd be sharpening the pitchfork as we speak.

Dave's point that it seems unfair on LA to be singled out when Indurain gets off scot free (if that's the correct reading of his position) strikes me as a little ironic, given that one of the widely postulated motives for Landis spilling the beans is that he believes it was inherently unfair that he had to carry the can.... Personally I hope all the dopers get caught, starting with the most successful, those that have gained most by cheating. The fact that some seem to have got away with it strikes me as a poor reason not to press ahead with catching the ones we can catch.

+1 to that

iainf72

More from Pat McQuaid

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mcquaid ... and-bordry

dennisn

iainf72 wrote:

dennisn wrote:

So, now you're saying that YOU believe what LA says(about not suing)? I thought you didn't believe a word he's said all these years. At least I got that impression. But, now he's telling the truth?? In any case it doesn't really matter because he does NOT have to respond if he chooses not to. You must agree with that? RIGHT? :? :? That's all I'm saying.

I've never said he lies about everything. No one does that. You have the most warped view of the world and the really odd thing is you think you're rational.

The point was, Lance stood in front of the world on TV and said "I'm not going to sue". But you'd posted "He might sue" - But he's said he's not going to. And I'd think Lance was a lot more aware of his intentions than you are, wouldn't you say?

I don't know. I just don't know. I'm still in shock over you saying that you believe something that he said.
Careful, or you'll get thrown out of the Anti Lance Brigade.
Or is it that because he said he wouldn't sue, and that means that he will because he lies a lot? After all, BB says that pretty much everything about him is a lie so why not that? In defence of myself I'll admit to not knowing he said he wouldn't sue. However, all I said was he might. And people can change their minds.

crown_jewel

I admire a lot that Lance has done. But I cannot get over this: he won 7 Tours in a row (often quite comfortably) and nearly every key competitor during those years has been found to be a cheat. So either Lance doped as well or he was that much better than they were when they were cheating and he was not. And I just cannot believe the latter.

andyp

iainf72 wrote:

More from Pat McQuaid

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mcquaid ... and-bordry

My heart sank as I read that. He's really out of his depth isn't he? On one hand he's saying Landis is a liar and can't be trusted, then on the other he says that the sport has cleaned up considerably since 2006.

As for the Armstrong donation and the paperwork, someone should point him to the document Pierre found. At least that exists.

BikingBernie

dennisn wrote:

" Hey, man, you don't talk to Lance. You listen to him. The man's enlarged my mind. He's a road-warrior in the classic sense. I mean sometimes he'll, uh, well, you'll say hello to him, right? And he'll just walk right by you, and he won't even notice you. And suddenly he'll grab you, and he'll throw you in a corner, and he'll say do you know that 'EPO' is the middle word in 'NEPOTISM'? That's right, jack. The man is clear in his mind, but his soul is mad. Oh yeah. His myth's dying, I think. He hates all this, he hates it! But ... the man's ... uh ... he reads poetry out loud, alright? ... And a voice! A voice. ... He likes you because you're still alive. He's got plans for you. I mean, what are they going to say, man, when he's gone, huh? Because his myth is dying, when it dies, man, when it dies, cycling dies. What are they going to say about him? What, are they going to say? he was a kind man? he was a wise man? he had plans? he had wisdom? Bullshit, man! Am I going to be the one, that's going to set them straight? Look at me: wrong! ... You!"

disgruntledgoat

BikingBernie wrote:

dennisn wrote:

" Hey, man, you don't talk to Lance. You listen to him. The man's enlarged my mind. He's a road-warrior in the classic sense. I mean sometimes he'll, uh, well, you'll say hello to him, right? And he'll just walk right by you, and he won't even notice you. And suddenly he'll grab you, and he'll throw you in a corner, and he'll say do you know that 'EPO' is the middle word in 'NEPOTISM'? That's right, jack. The man is clear in his mind, but his soul is mad. Oh yeah. His myth's dying, I think. He hates all this, he hates it! But ... the man's ... uh ... he reads poetry out loud, alright? ... And a voice! A voice. ... He likes you because you're still alive. He's got plans for you. I mean, what are they going to say, man, when he's gone, huh? Because his myth is dying, when it dies, man, when it dies, cycling dies. What are they going to say about him? What, are they going to say? he was a kind man? he was a wise man? he had plans? he had wisdom? Bullshit, man! Am I going to be the one, that's going to set them straight? Look at me: wrong! ... You!"

Even the jungle wanted him dead.

ratsbeyfus

BikingBernie wrote:

dennisn wrote:

" Hey, man, you don't talk to Lance. You listen to him. The man's enlarged my mind. He's a road-warrior in the classic sense. I mean sometimes he'll, uh, well, you'll say hello to him, right? And he'll just walk right by you, and he won't even notice you. And suddenly he'll grab you, and he'll throw you in a corner, and he'll say do you know that 'EPO' is the middle word in 'NEPOTISM'? That's right, jack. The man is clear in his mind, but his soul is mad. Oh yeah. His myth's dying, I think. He hates all this, he hates it! But ... the man's ... uh ... he reads poetry out loud, alright? ... And a voice! A voice. ... He likes you because you're still alive. He's got plans for you. I mean, what are they going to say, man, when he's gone, huh? Because his myth is dying, when it dies, man, when it dies, cycling dies. What are they going to say about him? What, are they going to say? he was a kind man? he was a wise man? he had plans? he had wisdom? Bullshit, man! Am I going to be the one, that's going to set them straight? Look at me: wrong! ... You!"

The Horror!

Richrd2205

andyp wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

More from Pat McQuaid

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mcquaid ... and-bordry

My heart sank as I read that. He's really out of his depth isn't he? On one hand he's saying Landis is a liar and can't be trusted, then on the other he says that the sport has cleaned up considerably since 2006.

As for the Armstrong donation and the paperwork, someone should point him to the document Pierre found. At least that exists.

That's pretty much what I thought. He's supposed to be president of the UCI & that would imply some sort of leadership somewhere.

That interview stinks of fear & doing the rehearsed PR lines badly under adrenaline.... I know that (according to Pat) that the UCI don't have much money, but a half day's media training shouldn't cost too much, surely.

& describing claims as "bullsh*t," really wins the logical battle for me, Pat, I'm convinced now.

No leadership at all & lots of fear. As andyp said, out of his depth....

Part of me feels sorry for him, poor wee thing. But then I realise that I'd happily f*ck things up for far less money than he earns & feel OK again.

conceptual_primate

dennisn wrote:

conceptual_primate wrote:

dennisn wrote:

magicrhodes wrote:

Gazzetta67 wrote:

Can somebody explain why the UCI or Armstrong and his cameraman Bruyneel have not threatened to take Landis to court for his comments ?? .

Some people feel that the more you defend yourself the more guilty you are. If you say nothing (or very little) eventually it goes away. There are numerous cases of people dealing with allegations of extra-martial relationships in this way.

A part from spending a load of money if LA can't provide catagoric evidence he did not dope then the case turns into a discussion on hearsay and conjectury which achieves nothing but a new car/house for the lawyers!

I think you're wrong in that LA has to prove he DIDN"T dope. No, it's up to his accusers
to prove he did and if they can't, then I see LA suing them for slander or whatever. I know I would. You had better have your act together when YOU accuse someone of something like this, i.e. you had better be able to prove it.

Dennis,

I don't think magicrhodes was accusing anybody of anything in his post, he was just offering an opinion on perhaps why Armstrong hasn't sued. And, yes it's an opinion he probably came to without receiving this verbatim from Armstrong himself, on bended knee and one hand on the bible... but that doesn't mean he can't have that opinion, or put that forward on a forum for disccussing maters relating to cycling...

The fact is though is that Landis has accused Lance and hasn't been able to 'prove' this and Lance hasn't filed suit which is why the original poster asked the question. So i 'm not sure i see what your point is or where you're coming from??

Here again you're sort of assuming that because LA hasn't responded, or hasn't responded yet, that he has something to hide. It's sort of like me calling you an idiot and because you don't respond I assume that you are an idiot. Not calling you anything, by the way, just an example.. It's also a case in which, once again, he doesn't have to respond or do anything. The burden of proof is on the accusers. If I call you an idiot, it's not up to you to disprove it. It's up to me to make a case for it. At least in the legal sense.
Now if I keep telling anyone who will listen, over and over, something about you that I can't prove and you feel damages your reputation, you may well be able to sue me for slander or something along those lines and you might not even have to say a single word.

It's all in your head mate

I was making no comment on the case, nor offering any personal opinion; I just pointed out your argument that (paraphrased) 'if someone accused lance and couldn't prove it then you think he would sue them for slander (or libel).' Landis has accused lance and 'can't' prove it but lance hasn't sued...

I think you're having a pop at me for assuming things when you're assuming that I assuming something even though nothing suggests that I actually am

knedlicky

BikingBernie wrote:

Back on topic, does anyone know more about what Julien DeVries, formerly a mechanic at USP, is claimed to have said in the past about doping by Armstrong and co? His name is a new one to me.

I know the name DeVries from an article in L’Equipe maybe 4 years back when the newspaper quoted Greg Lemond as saying mechanic DeVries had changed his story and admitted remnants of a doping substance called Actovegin had been disposed of with the rubbish from the team’s hotel during the 2000 TdF.

Lemond also said DeVries had told him LA made an arrangement with the UCI in 1999 following being caught using cortisone. You mention these two stories or incidents as if separate, but in the Lemond article in L’Equipe they were linked.

According to the article, the arrangement apparently was that Armstrong would present a backdated piece of paper authorising him to use cortisone for a health reason in return for which, the UCI would turn a blind eye to this falsification and simply file away the piece of paper as if presented beforehand.
Verbruggen responded to this, saying the claims of what had gone on wrt UCI were ‘completely absurd’.

dennisn

BikingBernie wrote:

dennisn wrote:

" Hey, man, you don't talk to Lance. You listen to him. The man's enlarged my mind. He's a road-warrior in the classic sense. I mean sometimes he'll, uh, well, you'll say hello to him, right? And he'll just walk right by you, and he won't even notice you. And suddenly he'll grab you, and he'll throw you in a corner, and he'll say do you know that 'EPO' is the middle word in 'NEPOTISM'? That's right, jack. The man is clear in his mind, but his soul is mad. Oh yeah. His myth's dying, I think. He hates all this, he hates it! But ... the man's ... uh ... he reads poetry out loud, alright? ... And a voice! A voice. ... He likes you because you're still alive. He's got plans for you. I mean, what are they going to say, man, when he's gone, huh? Because his myth is dying, when it dies, man, when it dies, cycling dies. What are they going to say about him? What, are they going to say? he was a kind man? he was a wise man? he had plans? he had wisdom? Bullshit, man! Am I going to be the one, that's going to set them straight? Look at me: wrong! ... You!"

I give up. You win. Just kill me and call in the Arc Lights.
Your best yet!!!!!!

Arkibal

BikingBernie wrote:

dennisn wrote:

" Hey, man, you don't talk to Lance. You listen to him. The man's enlarged my mind. He's a road-warrior in the classic sense. I mean sometimes he'll, uh, well, you'll say hello to him, right? And he'll just walk right by you, and he won't even notice you. And suddenly he'll grab you, and he'll throw you in a corner, and he'll say do you know that 'EPO' is the middle word in 'NEPOTISM'? That's right, jack. The man is clear in his mind, but his soul is mad. Oh yeah. His myth's dying, I think. He hates all this, he hates it! But ... the man's ... uh ... he reads poetry out loud, alright? ... And a voice! A voice. ... He likes you because you're still alive. He's got plans for you. I mean, what are they going to say, man, when he's gone, huh? Because his myth is dying, when it dies, man, when it dies, cycling dies. What are they going to say about him? What, are they going to say? he was a kind man? he was a wise man? he had plans? he had wisdom? Bullshit, man! Am I going to be the one, that's going to set them straight? Look at me: wrong! ... You!"

Did Dennis really write that? (I wont wade through the 80+ pages)

iainf72

Oooof

Looks like wishing it away isn't working yet

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_ ... y_flo.html

BikingBernie

knedlicky wrote:

BikingBernie wrote:

Back on topic, does anyone know more about what Julien DeVries, formerly a mechanic at USP, is claimed to have said in the past about doping by Armstrong and co? His name is a new one to me.

I know the name DeVries from an article in L’Equipe maybe 4 years back when the newspaper quoted Greg Lemond as saying mechanic DeVries had changed his story and admitted remnants of a doping substance called Actovegin had been disposed of with the rubbish from the team’s hotel during the 2000 TdF.

Lemond also said DeVries had told him LA made an arrangement with the UCI in 1999 following being caught using cortisone...According to the article, the arrangement apparently was that Armstrong would present a backdated piece of paper authorising him to use cortisone for a health reason in return for which, the UCI would turn a blind eye to this falsification and simply file away the piece of paper as if presented beforehand.

Of course, this backs up what Emma O'Reilly said about the same incident.

"At one stage, two of the team officials were in the room with Lance. They were all talking. 'What are we going to do? What are we going to do? Lets' keep this quite, let's stick together. Let's not panic. Let's all leave here with the same story.' There was a real sense that the shit was about to hit the fan and they had to come up with an explanation. From that discussion came the saddle sore story, the corticoidal cream to treat it, and a backdated medical prescription."

Two independent, eye-witness testimonies to the fact that not only was Armstrong doping with corticosteroids, the UCI corruptly protected him when he tested positive. I'll take that as confirmation.

BikingBernie

Arkibal wrote:

BikingBernie wrote:

dennisn wrote:

" Hey, man, you don't talk to Lance. You listen to him. The man's enlarged my mind. He's a road-warrior in the classic sense. I mean sometimes he'll, uh, well, you'll say hello to him, right? And he'll just walk right by you, and he won't even notice you. And suddenly he'll grab you, and he'll throw you in a corner, and he'll say do you know that 'EPO' is the middle word in 'NEPOTISM'? That's right, jack. The man is clear in his mind, but his soul is mad. Oh yeah. His myth's dying, I think. He hates all this, he hates it! But ... the man's ... uh ... he reads poetry out loud, alright? ... And a voice! A voice. ... He likes you because you're still alive. He's got plans for you. I mean, what are they going to say, man, when he's gone, huh? Because his myth is dying, when it dies, man, when it dies, cycling dies. What are they going to say about him? What, are they going to say? he was a kind man? he was a wise man? he had plans? he had wisdom? Bullshit, man! Am I going to be the one, that's going to set them straight? Look at me: wrong! ... You!"

Did Dennis really write that? (I wont wade through the 80+ pages)

It was actually his alter-ego who said this. (In Apocalypse Now, albeit about a rather different type of apocalypse to the one Armstrong is now facing).

mididoctors

one day this doping story is going to end

mrushton

As long as there has been racing cycling there has been some 'assistance' so it won't end any time soon. But perhaps the spotlight could be shifted to other sports to at least give a balanced view.

micron

Verbruggen has form for backdated TUEs - he allowed Festina to cook one up after Brochard tested positive at the San Sebastian Worlds.

iain the assignment of a federal prosecutor is an interesting development - any plans for Pierre to give us the benefit of his wisdom on Landisgate?

No_Ta_Doctor

mididoctors wrote:

one day this doping story is going to end

It might do, but I dodn't think this thread will.... Did I ever tell you about the time when I was chasing Brando up a big climb in Northern Ireland, while all the while he was quoting Derrida and popping amphetamines?

BikingBernie

knedlicky wrote:

BikingBernie wrote:

Back on topic, does anyone know more about what Julien DeVries, formerly a mechanic at USP, is claimed to have said in the past about doping by Armstrong and co? His name is a new one to me.

I know the name DeVries from an article in L’Equipe maybe 4 years back...

Thanks for the lead. I haven't found the original article yet, but I have found confirmation of its existence from a Spanish news-site. (See below). As you said, it also provides further evidence that Armstrong paid the UCI $500,000, although there does seem to be some confusion about whether this was to whitewash his 'positives' for Epo in the 1999 Tour or his positive for corticosteroids in the 1999 Tour.

Given the efforts made to keep everything quite, the confusion is understandable. Also, given the dates and the fact that his positives for Epo did not come to light until several years later, I feel it is safe to assume the '$500,000' was actually paid for the UCI's hatchet job on the LNDD. However, it is quite possible that another payment was made at an earlier date in return for accepting the TUE, hence all the conflicting statements from Verbruggen, McQuaid and Armstrong. None of them seem to be sure which 'bung' they are supposed to be talking about!

Also note the reference to what Kristin, Armstrong's wife at the time, knew about his doping.

---

"Armstrong paid to the UCI to cover a positive"

L'Equipe Magazine yesterday provided new evidence that relate directly to Lance Armstrong of doping practices, including Greg Lemond, who denounced the Texan personal threats and bribes from him to the UCI.

JG | 25/06/2006

The French newspaper Le Monde on Friday passed him: Betsy, wife of Frankie Andreu, a former teammate and former friend of Lance Armstrong, said he witnessed in 1996 a Texan dialogue with one of the doctors who operated during her cancer, in which Lance admitted having taken "growth hormones, cortisone, EPO, steroids and testosterone." And yesterday, L'Equipe Magazine not only ratified the same information, but extends it with excerpts from other trial evidence that Armstrong stayed with the insurance company SCA. In them, Lance again be accused of doping.

A positive in the 1999 Tour

Kathy Lemond, the wife of Greg Lemond (triple winner of the Tour), recalled a conversation with Julien DeVries, mechanical Lance Armstrong: "De Vries said he knew that we had paid a sum of $ 500,000 to the UCI to cover a positive Lance in 1999. He believed that the money had been paid into an account in Switzerland to a leader of the UCI. "

Seven days later, confirmed these facts Lemond, also under oath, "Julien told my wife that Armstrong had tested positive for cortisone. He had a medical prescription with the wrong date, but reached a settlement with the ICU for about 500,000 euros" .

Kristin knew of doping

Betsy Andreu Armstrong witnessed an appointment with Michele Ferrari "in a caravan" in commemoration of the Milan-San Remo 1999. "Lance did not want to be seen with Ferrari." Betsy came to this journey with Kristin Armstrong, Lance's wife. Both had a conversation about doping: "I asked, 'What do you think of the EPO?" And I said, 'I do not like much, but is a necessary evil. "

The EPO in the fridge

Betsy revealed another story told Stephanie McIlvain, Oakley representative. "Asked Armstrong College (John Korioth, a friend of Lance) to come to his house to retrieve the EPO had in the fridge." Do not want him to see Kristin.

Another substance with the name of Armstrong is Actovegin reporters who found during the Tour de France in March 2000. Lemond told: "DeVries told us:" I signed an affidavit stating that the Actovegin was mine. And I did it because Armstrong and Bill Stapleton (rider's agent) called me. "

Threats to Greg Lemond

Lemond also recalled his famous telephone discussion with Armstrong's August 1, 2001. Greg questioned the methods of your doctor, Ferrari, and Lance called him to reproach. "He said, 'Do you want to play? Do you want to take away? Well, I'm going to take me to you. I'll find ten people who will say that you took EPO." Lemond added that later received an e-mail and three telephone calls implying threats of four persons associated with Lance: Thomas Weisel, Terry Lee, John Bucksbaum and John Burke.

http://www.as.com/mas-deporte/articulo/ ... imas_6/Tes

blazing_saddles

iainf72 wrote:

More from Pat McQuaid

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mcquaid ... and-bordry

"Bordry needs to learn the rules of anti-doping and follow them," he said. "The AFLD has tested riders four times this year when they were not required to do so. The last was just last Friday. They went to test riders from RadioShack who were riding the Dauphine Libere but when they presented a list to the directeur sportif Alain Gallopin, it included the name of a mechanic and a soigneur. How bad is that?"

As bad as not knowing the name of your own race, Pat? :oops:

Any offers as to why the AFLD would make such a "mistake"?
I can think of one, very good reason.

disgruntledgoat

Testing riders more than is required? The cads! Ban this filth!

No_Ta_Doctor

mrushton wrote:

As long as there has been racing cycling there has been some 'assistance' so it won't end any time soon. But perhaps the spotlight could be shifted to other sports to at least give a balanced view.

That's part of the problem though, isn't it? That cycling has a long history and tradition, a culture even, of doping. That's what sets it aside from other sports (we know other sports aren't entirely clean either). I've said it before, but the early doping in cycling, from ether and brandy to amphetamines, is almost romanticised. They were taken for "survival", to dull the pain, to help mere mortals perform feats that were beyond the endurance of a man. Cycling wore them almost as a badge of honour - "this is how tough our sport is, we have to take all this just to get by". That's the background to omerta, to the solidarity of the peloton to refuse to judge riders for doping and to make outcasts of whistleblowers. No other sport has that baggage to cart around. There's no point in moaning that cycling has been singled out in the public eye for unfair treatment in relation to other sports, endemic doping has been ingrained in the sport for far too long and only some very serious dirty linen washing in public is going to have any effect on that.

bazbadger

To quote The Wednesday comment in CW

Anyone who's been following this must be spinning.

Quite.

No_Ta_Doctor

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Testing riders more than is required? The cads! Ban this filth!

Actually, I think he's pointing out that the UCI test far more often, he should probably have the word "only" in there.

The man is clearly a complete clown though, how on earth the cycling world can let this bloke run the show is beyond belief.

No_Ta_Doctor

So, any Swiss based posters want to take McQuaid up on his open invitation?

"$100,000 is the figure and the receipt is available for anyone to see at the UCI headquarters in Aigle,"

I'd love to just drop by and take a peek at this piece of paper, check the date etc....

andyp

I imagine Lionel Birnie has sent them his fax number already.

term1te

No tA Doctor wrote:

So, any Swiss based posters want to take McQuaid up on his open invitation?

"$100,000 is the figure and the receipt is available for anyone to see at the UCI headquarters in Aigle,"

I'd love to just drop by and take a peek at this piece of paper, check the date etc....

Far end of the country to me. Pity, I was down there for a race two weeks ago. Do you really think anyone would get past the front door?