Student debt an election winning topic?

zanes

alfablue wrote:

Yes, I am apparently popular with the students. Its simple, you can search the web and find information about most careers and discover the demand for workers in any particular field. For example, one thing you could do is look for recruitment adverts in the field you are considering - are there many jobs? What qualifications and experience do they demand? You'll soon get a sense of the employability that goes with your chosen course. Also, if you are really intent upon entering a certain trade or profession, you will read professional journals, and join professional bodies, and you will have a good awareness of the state of the profession regarding employment prospects. University league tables also include employability statistics. Your parents may or may not know, but they would not be my first choice for objective information. Its a bit like buying an mtb - would you ask your mum which one???? :?

I think I am reacting to what appears to be an external locus of control that this thread suggests, i.e. life is sh*t because of what other people are doing to me / not doing for me, rather than an internal locus whereby you would be the master of your destiny.

Dr Allsop, is that you?

cjw

redddraggon wrote:

Smokin Joe wrote:

University should only be for those of well above average ability, like it used to be. We need plumbers, engineers and electricians, not people with meaningless degrees that qualify them for nothing.

Engineers need a degree

He's talking different engineers (mechanics I'm guessing). All the engineers I work with are qualified to post grad (Masters / PhD) level - civils, , chemical, mechanical engineers, electricals etc...

finchy

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Point is, the lesson I learned was that the world doesn't owe you a living, you've never "made it" and you can never stop pushing yourself to improve. A lesson that the graduates i've seen come and go in my time would do well to pick up on... They all think that they've immediately made it, that the nuts and bolts stuff of learning the job is beneath them and they should be given strategic, important stuff straight away. That and they can't spell punctuate or write a sentence properly. A lot of them aren't half the candidates they think they are...

You need a comma in there. :P :P :P

disgruntledgoat

johnfinch wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Point is, the lesson I learned was that the world doesn't owe you a living, you've never "made it" and you can never stop pushing yourself to improve. A lesson that the graduates i've seen come and go in my time would do well to pick up on... They all think that they've immediately made it, that the nuts and bolts stuff of learning the job is beneath them and they should be given strategic, important stuff straight away. That and they can't spell punctuate or write a sentence properly. A lot of them aren't half the candidates they think they are...

You need a comma in there. :P :P :P

I was certian I put one in there! Absolutely certain! Hoisted by my own petard!

domhnall_dearg

cjw wrote:

redddraggon wrote:

Smokin Joe wrote:

University should only be for those of well above average ability, like it used to be. We need plumbers, engineers and electricians, not people with meaningless degrees that qualify them for nothing.

Engineers need a degree

He's talking different engineers (mechanics I'm guessing). All the engineers I work with are qualified to post grad (Masters / PhD) level - civils, , chemical, mechanical engineers, electricals etc...

I think the "approved" term (by the IET and others) is Engineering Technician.

zanes

Domhnall Dearg wrote:

cjw wrote:

redddraggon wrote:

Smokin Joe wrote:

University should only be for those of well above average ability, like it used to be. We need plumbers, engineers and electricians, not people with meaningless degrees that qualify them for nothing.

Engineers need a degree

He's talking different engineers (mechanics I'm guessing). All the engineers I work with are qualified to post grad (Masters / PhD) level - civils, , chemical, mechanical engineers, electricals etc...

I think the "approved" term (by the IET and others) is Engineering Technician.

+1. Unless you're chartered you can't call yourself an Engineer, as it is a professional title.

finchy

nolf wrote:

A degree is simply a piece of paper that says, I have the brains/work ethic to get a (insert degree class here), and have the skills and ability to learn to do almost any job (independent study, time management, organisation), coupled with some work experience (yes I can get up in the mornings/haven't got serious social issues), is all you need. So long as the degree doesn't say "Sociology" on it, in my experience for the majority of gaduate jobs it really doesn't matter what it is.

I knew a fair few people who graduated from a decent university with good degrees who contradict all of this.

finchy

disgruntledgoat wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Point is, the lesson I learned was that the world doesn't owe you a living, you've never "made it" and you can never stop pushing yourself to improve. A lesson that the graduates i've seen come and go in my time would do well to pick up on... They all think that they've immediately made it, that the nuts and bolts stuff of learning the job is beneath them and they should be given strategic, important stuff straight away. That and they can't spell punctuate or write a sentence properly. A lot of them aren't half the candidates they think they are...

You need a comma in there. :P :P :P

I was certian I put one in there! Absolutely certain! Hoisted by my own petard!

Heh-heh. Not doing too well today. :P :P :P [/i]

eh

Unless you're chartered you can't call yourself an Engineer, as it is a professional title.

WTF? Thats complete rubbish.

Some dodgy comments on this thread:

1) Saying engineers build stuff is a bit wishy-washy, e.g. ARM and ARUP don't build stuff per se. Although they are heavily involved in the process. But you also need engineers to run things, get involved in standard writing (ISO, BSi) etc.

2) As for Rick Chasey mate not getting into Management consultancy well thats hardly a surprise, it is about the most competitive jobs market to get into and many will now go to post-grads. But plenty of top level Oxbridge grads apply and don't get in. He should look at a 2nd career option, plenty of other good jobs out there, many with a far better work life balance than consultancy.

EKIMIKE

Well my point of view, as an unemployed 'gap year' student starting a Law degree this September is as follows:

Firstly there is a serious problem with the culture of going to University for the sake of going. This culture stems from the secondary schools desire to get as many A level students into degree courses as possible. It's Uni or p1ss off in my experience.

The fact is, us youths are impressionable so if our school says 'if you get a degree you will earn more money' then we'll do it, even if it's common sense that specialised/obscure degree's such as Management Consultancy, Media Studies or Creative Music Technology (WTF?!?!?!) are going to make jobs hard to come by.

Fact is, like Alfablue says, Uni just isn't for some people. Yet the education system is all geared for saying 'yes, there is a uni course for everyone'. Wrong.


My second point of view is that my generation has an immense sense of 'life owes us something'.So as an 18 year old who has grown up through the good times, to now find it near on impossible to get a job, I find myself surrounded by friends who are at uni telling me I should be able to get a job, it’s terrible because it’s ruined my gap year e.t.c.

Fact is, I simply do not share that view of entitlement. If I did back in September last year then the last 8 months has knocked it out of me. I’ve accepted sometimes things happen. The recession happened. I can’t do anything about it. I still try to look for employment, I go to interviews. My stance in life at the moment is that things haven’t gone to plan but I’m going to Uni in September so lets see what the future holds.

The problem is, all those around me are focussing on what i haven’t had/done this year. And they don’t seem to understand that I’m just gonna suck it up and move on. They get angry at me ffs! They think there’s something wrong with me because I’m not angry that I didn’t have the ‘standard’ gap year of the boom times. The recession hasn’t hit them yet. To me they’re idiots even if they are my friends and family.

And thirdly, when I go to Uni in seotember, if it doesn’t work out, I’m not gonna hang around to see what happens. I’m going to go and explore something else. I can accept that maybe I’m just not cut out for HE learning. Afterall I’ve been told I’m an underachiever for the majority of my life. Again, this is totally alien to those around me. To them, I’ve chosen a degree so I should get it right? Wrong.

I chose to do Law because in my confusion of ‘what do I really want to do/be’ it appears to be a strong, stable, reliable choice with good prospects. Not because someone told me I’d earn lots of money and have a great lifestyle. I’m not falling for that sh1t because I know a law degree doesn’t entitle me to good money and a great lifestyle. If I did fall for it, I’d just be setting myself up for an almighty disappointment.

zanes

eh wrote:

Unless you're chartered you can't call yourself an Engineer, as it is a professional title.

WTF? Thats complete rubbish.

After reading up on it I agree with the learned gentleman- it's Chartered Engineer that's protected.

Damnit

bike-a-swan

engineer- one who will assume horse = sphere to make the maths easier

alfablue

Ekimike, I think you have an attitude that is much more realistic, and that is probably going to leave you happier than some of your peers will be.

finchy

Rick Chasey wrote:

A friend in partiucular springs to mind. Very able, 4 As at A level, graduated with a first from Oxford, including various awards for extra curricular activities. Has completed around 7months worth of internships in the field he's chosen (all totally unpaid, so he had to fork out for those too); management consulting; and is currently looking at his 132nd rejection since he graduated in 2008. He's got to 20 final round interviews, of which some have been round 5 (count 'em!), and has been rejected usually on the grounds of "normally we'd take you on, but this year we have better/more experienced candidates", and some because the position has closed due to a worsening of the employers' position.

What should he do? Is he allowed to feel a little agrieved that it is so difficult for him to find a job?

Seeing as he doesn't have any experience of being a manager (I presume), why would anyone give him a job as a management consultant?

EKIMIKE

johnfinch wrote:

Seeing as he doesn't have any experience of being a manager (I presume), why would anyone give him a job as a management consultant?

Exactly. It's the sort of insane delusion that our education system promotes. The schools tell us kids that if you have a qualification, employers will want to employ you because of it. The fact is a qualification is no magic substitute for training and experience.

Kids go into interviews thinking they're qualified for the job. The interviewer thinks 'Jesus they have no idea. What arrogance.' I've got 3 A levels. I've been to a fair few interviews in the last 8 months and not once have they been mentioned. No-one cares. It's a qualification of study. Theory will never excede practice. Yet our education system pumps us full of that sort of crap.

8 months ago i thought 'yeh i'm an adult now, i can go get a job' but now i feel like a kid more than ever. If kids were treated more like kids they'd become much better adults. My generation is characterised by sheer arrogance.

This is just my view. It's not neccesarily right. We're not all bad. In fact you could call me arrogant for thinking i've learned alot through the adversity of this recession and my experiences of it. I'd argue that i'm open to advice and guidence more than ever before.

tebbit

The problem with secondary school teachers is that a lot of them haven't been out of the education system and have no connection with the workplace and simply just don't understand it. As much as people go on about graduate wages a good skilled tradesman can earn a very good living, academic skills and intelligence are not the same thing.

finchy

tebbit wrote:

The problem with secondary school teachers is that a lot of them haven't been out of the education system and have no connection with the workplace and simply just don't understand it. As much as people go on about graduate wages a good skilled tradesman can earn a very good living, academic skills and intelligence are not the same thing.

Are you talking about teachers giving careers advice, or the content of the lessons?

Because the teachers don't have any choice over what they teach.

disgruntledgoat

EKIMIKE wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

Seeing as he doesn't have any experience of being a manager (I presume), why would anyone give him a job as a management consultant?

Exactly. It's the sort of insane delusion that our education system promotes. The schools tell us kids that if you have a qualification, employers will want to employ you because of it. The fact is a qualification is no magic substitute for training and experience.

Kids go into interviews thinking they're qualified for the job. The interviewer thinks 'Jesus they have no idea. What arrogance.' I've got 3 A levels. I've been to a fair few interviews in the last 8 months and not once have they been mentioned. No-one cares. It's a qualification of study. Theory will never excede practice. Yet our education system pumps us full of that sort of crap.

8 months ago i thought 'yeh i'm an adult now, i can go get a job' but now i feel like a kid more than ever. If kids were treated more like kids they'd become much better adults. My generation is characterised by sheer arrogance.

This is just my view. It's not neccesarily right. We're not all bad. In fact you could call me arrogant for thinking i've learned alot through the adversity of this recession and my experiences of it. I'd argue that i'm open to advice and guidence more than ever before.

Can I book you to do a lecture to our graduate employees please?

finchy

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Can I book you to do a lecture to our graduate employees please?

You've got another correction waiting for you on page 2. You need to get a proofreader. I'll do the job. I'm a graduate, don't you know?

EKIMIKE

tebbit wrote:

The problem with secondary school teachers is that a lot of them haven't been out of the education system and have no connection with the workplace and simply just don't understand it. As much as people go on about graduate wages a good skilled tradesman can earn a very good living, academic skills and intelligence are not the same thing.

Personally, i disagree with some of that but i also agree with some of it.

My personal experience was that most teachers had a biased towards going to university even if it might not be right for the person concerned.

EKIMIKE

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Can I book you to do a lecture to our graduate employees please?

Why? :? lol. I'll de anything for cash. Anything....

disgruntledgoat

A typo (dashed off inbetween evaluating bids for work) isn't proof of being unable to spell. The little gits who graduated with 2:1s from good universities unable to correctly use their, there and they're or work an apostrophe are a real worry though. How did they get 3 As at A-level and a degree and not learn that?

tebbit

The comment was teachers giving careers advice.

disgruntledgoat

EKIMIKE wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Can I book you to do a lecture to our graduate employees please?

Why? :? lol. I'll de anything for cash. Anything....

See my first post on the subject. Your attitude will, in the end, take you a lot further than those guys. I was in a similar boat, albiet a bit older, but then if life always went to plan it'd be dull wouldn't it?

finchy

disgruntledgoat wrote:

A typo (dashed off inbetween evaluating bids for work) isn't proof of being unable to spell.

Its still funny when your talking about other peoples' mistake's and then you make a load of you're own. Happen's every time though doesnt it?

disgruntledgoat

true dat

finchy

tebbit wrote:

The comment was teachers giving careers advice.

I don't think that this should be a teacher's job.

Career advice guides are always good for a laugh. When I was at school, I had a look at the advice for people aiming to be rock singers (go to university to study Pop Music Studies :roll: ) and professional footballers (go to university to study Sports Science :roll: ).

rick_chasey

johnfinch wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

A friend in partiucular springs to mind. Very able, 4 As at A level, graduated with a first from Oxford, including various awards for extra curricular activities. Has completed around 7months worth of internships in the field he's chosen (all totally unpaid, so he had to fork out for those too); management consulting; and is currently looking at his 132nd rejection since he graduated in 2008. He's got to 20 final round interviews, of which some have been round 5 (count 'em!), and has been rejected usually on the grounds of "normally we'd take you on, but this year we have better/more experienced candidates", and some because the position has closed due to a worsening of the employers' position.

What should he do? Is he allowed to feel a little agrieved that it is so difficult for him to find a job?

Seeing as he doesn't have any experience of being a manager (I presume), why would anyone give him a job as a management consultant?

If I remember correctly, McKinsey, the daddy of all management consulting, were the first to target high performing university graduates.

I'm applying to quite a few myself, and they all have 'graduate entry' points.

In short, I think you're wrong there!

finchy

Rick Chasey wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

A friend in partiucular springs to mind. Very able, 4 As at A level, graduated with a first from Oxford, including various awards for extra curricular activities. Has completed around 7months worth of internships in the field he's chosen (all totally unpaid, so he had to fork out for those too); management consulting; and is currently looking at his 132nd rejection since he graduated in 2008. He's got to 20 final round interviews, of which some have been round 5 (count 'em!), and has been rejected usually on the grounds of "normally we'd take you on, but this year we have better/more experienced candidates", and some because the position has closed due to a worsening of the employers' position.

What should he do? Is he allowed to feel a little agrieved that it is so difficult for him to find a job?

Seeing as he doesn't have any experience of being a manager (I presume), why would anyone give him a job as a management consultant?

If I remember correctly, McKinsey, the daddy of all management consulting, were the first to target high performing university graduates.

I'm applying to quite a few myself, and they all have 'graduate entry' points.

In short, I think you're wrong there!

I know there are graduate vacancies in the field.

What I meant was more why would anyone want to use a management consultant who has never managed anything?

cycologist

Just heard that the Lib -Dems are going to oppose the vote in Sheffield due to the number of people excluded from the ballot due to the doors being closed in the face of queues of waiting people. Students and residents were segregated and the students not allowed to vote until after the indigenous population effectively disenfranchising the students.