Student debt an election winning topic?

guilliano

Got to ask....... with this country becoming more and more reliant on retail as the major employer where will all the uni graduates with enormous debts go to find work?

If I was 16 and currently looking into my prospects right now I would be wondering...... Do I find a job in retail and live with my parents for the rest of my life, or do I go through A-Levels and uni, build up a huge debt and end up in a retail job living with my parents for the rest of my life as I can't get a job in the area I have qualifications in?

alfablue

The answer is to vote for a party that will increase taxes substantially so the poor students don't end up paying proportionately for their higher education.

guilliano

And where will the higher education get them? A baskets only checkout instead of a trolly one?

alfablue

guilliano wrote:

And where will the higher education get them? A baskets only checkout instead of a trolly one?

if you choose the wrong course and / or you don't excel, maybe university is a waste of time. Your tone suggests that you think society owes you, I am not sure it does.

guilliano

alfablue wrote:

guilliano wrote:

And where will the higher education get them? A baskets only checkout instead of a trolly one?

if you choose the wrong course and / or you don't excel, maybe university is a waste of time. Your tone suggests that you think society owes you, I am not sure it does.

My tone says that the parties want most of us to go through Uni when most jobs don't warrant it. As for assuming what I'm thinking you are obviously a very bad judge. I chose not to go through Uni at a time when i wouldn't have been saddled with a massive debt for doing so. The vast majority of the jobs in the UK don't require a degree, but the government wants an ever increasing number of students....... is this simply to take people out of the unemployment figures and add to the "in education" figures they love so much?

rick_chasey

alfablue wrote:

guilliano wrote:

And where will the higher education get them? A baskets only checkout instead of a trolly one?

if you choose the wrong course and / or you don't excel, maybe university is a waste of time. Your tone suggests that you think society owes you, I am not sure it does.

The issue comes when students spend virtually their entire lives (often literally) being told again and again and again that a good degree from a good university will make them extremely employable, and substantially more likely to earn well above average < from parents, from their schools, from career advice both in school/university and from employers.

Then they graduate either this year or last year and find that they can't get a job < the lower paid jobs are out of their reach because they are "over-qualified" and employers are not so keen on taking on people who they know will jump ship as soon as a better offer comes, and the graduate jobs are so reduced now that many very good and able people are left out.

Some recent graduates thus feel they're caught between a rock and a hard place, and wonder why they were told what they were told?

It's pretty tough when you score top marks your whole life, then get repeatedly rejected from jobs, hundreds and hundreds of times, not because you are not a good candidate, but because you are literally competeing with 200 other equally good people per position, as well as people who have experience who have been made redundant, due to the lack of vacancies. You then get a letter from student loans company reminding you, all that stuff that you were told by everyone to do, has cost you £18,000 - £21,000 of money you don't have, and can't earn.

I have plenty of friends in that position, PhDs from Cambridge, Firsts in respectable undergrad courses, who all can't even get a job stacking shelves.

If you are brought up, by society, by state institutions, to believe that you should spend a lot of your own money top to improve your employability by a large degree, it's not too difficult to see how unemployed students sometimes come across like they're owed a little something. How would they know any different?


As for the original post - Student debt is not a vote winner, for various boring reasons.

- Current students will not be affected by changes, so why vote for something you soon won't be entitled to?

- Students who would be affected by it are too young to vote.

- The amount of swing voters who have children who are going to go to university and who are significantly affected by the issue of student debt are too small a proportion to have any significant impact on election outcomes.

guilliano

Good point made on the MTB forum...... yes they do have some thinkers

guilliano wrote:
Got to ask....... with this country becoming more and more reliant on retail as the major employer where will all the uni graduates with enormous debts go to find work?

This is already a problem, and already has been for some time. It's pretty much expected that everyone goes to school, then university, when in fact there are very few graduate level jobs available. It has taken the emphasis away from skilled labour jobs, and iny my opinion, has led us to a position where this country produces nothing, our only industries are administration based.

Mae'n enw i wedi ei grafu, hefo hoelan wedi rhydu, ar y lechan las
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Old
Hardtail

Smokin Joe

University should only be for those of well above average ability, like it used to be. We need plumbers, engineers and electricians, not people with meaningless degrees that qualify them for nothing.

redddraggon

Smokin Joe wrote:

University should only be for those of well above average ability, like it used to be. We need plumbers, engineers and electricians, not people with meaningless degrees that qualify them for nothing.

Engineers need a degree

Smokin Joe

redddraggon wrote:

Smokin Joe wrote:

University should only be for those of well above average ability, like it used to be. We need plumbers, engineers and electricians, not people with meaningless degrees that qualify them for nothing.

Engineers need a degree

I made do with an apprenticeship.

bennett_346

Im 17 and its interesting to read all of this. I do agree that we spend our lives being told whats best for us, and sometimes it seems like we have no real control, and is what we're being told really about whats best for us?

I'd love to see lower tuition fees but i don't think it'll happen, and as stated above, higher education has its pro's and con's anyway.

redddraggon

Smokin Joe wrote:

redddraggon wrote:

Smokin Joe wrote:

University should only be for those of well above average ability, like it used to be. We need plumbers, engineers and electricians, not people with meaningless degrees that qualify them for nothing.

Engineers need a degree

I made do with an apprenticeship.

But I bet you have equivalent qualifications to a degree even if you didn't go to university.

alfablue

I am afraid the impression is that you are sheep unable to make your own judgement and feel compelled to do what your parents and the government suggest - then whine when a plum job doesn't fall in your laps. Since when was doing what your parents wanted or the government wanted the smart move? Oh dear, the youth of today :roll:

By the way, the students I teach at my uni all get a job in their chosen field, if they wish. There are other courses where employability is 10% - the statistics were available to them when they chose their course....but sure, its their parents and the governments fault - boo hoo!

freehub

When I've left uni if I go to Uni I'll have around £26,000 student debt.

redddraggon

freehub wrote:

When I've left uni if I go to Uni I'll have around £26,000 student debt.

WTF!

I did a 4yr degree, took the full loan, and it only came to £14,000

rick_chasey

alfablue wrote:

I am afraid the impression is that you are sheep unable to make your own judgement and feel compelled to do what your parents and the government suggest - then whine when a plum job doesn't fall in your laps. Since when was doing what your parents wanted or the government wanted the smart move? Oh dear, the youth of today :roll:

By the way, the students I teach at my uni all get a job in their chosen field, if they wish. There are other courses where employability is 10% - the statistics were available to them when they chose their course....but sure, its their parents and the governments fault - boo hoo!

Bet your students love you with that attitude.

Which university do you teach at?

As for:

Since when was doing what your parents wanted or the government wanted the smart move?

I don't think you quite read what I wrote. I would like you to offer an idea to where students should get their information from, if it isn't from school, employers, or their parents, with regard to getting jobs?

For the record, I'm not particularly talking about the courses that you are refering to.

I'm talking about strong academic degrees from top 10 university, with students with top marks at A level.

alfablue

My son is investing his student loan in an ISA. He was (until recently) doing agency work for around £9 ph to fund his way through uni.

Last year he competed for sponsorship offered by a consortium of employers and succeeded in securing a place. It comes with an upgrade to the masters course, fees paid, £700 pcm grant, placements and mentorship during the course, and a minimum of 1yr employment at the end. He actually dropped out of school with 1 AS level (clearly ignoring what I and the government told him!) and has fought his way through to achieving this. Maybe you could say he is lucky - I don't though.

nolf

guilliano wrote:

Got to ask....... with this country becoming more and more reliant on retail as the major employer where will all the uni graduates with enormous debts go to find work?

If I was 16 and currently looking into my prospects right now I would be wondering...... Do I find a job in retail and live with my parents for the rest of my life, or do I go through A-Levels and uni, build up a huge debt and end up in a retail job living with my parents for the rest of my life as I can't get a job in the area I have qualifications in?

Pfft. Nobody gets a job relevant to their degree, part from about 15% of science graduates and a fai few business/IT students.

A degree is simply a piece of paper that says, I have the brains/work ethic to get a (insert degree class here), and have the skills and ability to learn to do almost any job (independent study, time management, organisation), coupled with some work experience (yes I can get up in the mornings/haven't got serious social issues), is all you need. So long as the degree doesn't say "Sociology" on it, in my experience for the majority of gaduate jobs it really doesn't matter what it is.

The graduate job market has been one of the most resilient, as in general graduates form the core of every company, and the minimal cost of recruitment and 2/3 years salary for a graduate is tiny compared to the potential threat of running out of new blood in 2/3 years time.

Unless the company has actually gone to the wall, and is bankrupt, the majority of firms are still recruiting.

Most students in my experience get crap jobs becuase they never think about a career until they graduate. Then they expect someone to come along and give them a graduate job.

As a mere 2nd year I probably spend 1/3 of my time applying for jobs, with some limited success. Thats just life. I will eventually break through because I've got skills, and determination to succeed, even if I have to slightly lower my goals and then work my way up later.

There are so many opportunities to succeed, just because you work in a shop doesn't mean you can't be ambitious. Look for methods of improving current working practices, volunteer for stuff, voluntarily take on management resposibilities, look for opportunities all the time, take on any potentially career enhancing work. Keep plugging away, and everntually you'll get somewhere. Work your way up, and get responsibility for projects and work that shows off your potential.

Heck, organise a major sporting event (like a cycle race) if you're current job isn't fulfilling you, that kind of organisation/fund raising will teach you a couple of things.

alfablue

Rick Chasey wrote:

alfablue wrote:

I am afraid the impression is that you are sheep unable to make your own judgement and feel compelled to do what your parents and the government suggest - then whine when a plum job doesn't fall in your laps. Since when was doing what your parents wanted or the government wanted the smart move? Oh dear, the youth of today :roll:

By the way, the students I teach at my uni all get a job in their chosen field, if they wish. There are other courses where employability is 10% - the statistics were available to them when they chose their course....but sure, its their parents and the governments fault - boo hoo!

Bet your students love you with that attitude.

Which university do you teach at?

As for:

Since when was doing what your parents wanted or the government wanted the smart move?

I don't think you quite read what I wrote. I would like you to offer an idea to where students should get their information from, if it isn't from school, employers, or their parents, with regard to getting jobs?

For the record, I'm not particularly talking about the courses that you are refering to.

I'm talking about strong academic degrees from top 10 university, with students with top marks at A level.

Yes, I am apparently popular with the students. Its simple, you can search the web and find information about most careers and discover the demand for workers in any particular field. For example, one thing you could do is look for recruitment adverts in the field you are considering - are there many jobs? What qualifications and experience do they demand? You'll soon get a sense of the employability that goes with your chosen course. Also, if you are really intent upon entering a certain trade or profession, you will read professional journals, and join professional bodies, and you will have a good awareness of the state of the profession regarding employment prospects. University league tables also include employability statistics. Your parents may or may not know, but they would not be my first choice for objective information. Its a bit like buying an mtb - would you ask your mum which one???? :?

I think I am reacting to what appears to be an external locus of control that this thread suggests, i.e. life is sh*t because of what other people are doing to me / not doing for me, rather than an internal locus whereby you would be the master of your destiny.

redddraggon

nolf wrote:

Pfft. Nobody gets a job relevant to their degree, part from about 15% of science graduates and a fai few business/IT students.

Not in my experience. The majority of people I graduated with and my friends all went into jobs requiring their job or similar.

Not one out of my friends or coursemates went onto a job that was irrelevant to their degree.

alfablue

Nolf - this is a better attitude! This is what I am talking about.

BTW, the median graduate salary for new employees was £25000 in 2009, so even if some of you do worse, this is still substantially better than a non-graduate would expect to get, so on average, university pays!

This site might be a useful starting point to work out which are the smart careers to go for.

rick_chasey

alfablue wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

alfablue wrote:

I am afraid the impression is that you are sheep unable to make your own judgement and feel compelled to do what your parents and the government suggest - then whine when a plum job doesn't fall in your laps. Since when was doing what your parents wanted or the government wanted the smart move? Oh dear, the youth of today :roll:

By the way, the students I teach at my uni all get a job in their chosen field, if they wish. There are other courses where employability is 10% - the statistics were available to them when they chose their course....but sure, its their parents and the governments fault - boo hoo!

Bet your students love you with that attitude.

Which university do you teach at?

As for:

Since when was doing what your parents wanted or the government wanted the smart move?

I don't think you quite read what I wrote. I would like you to offer an idea to where students should get their information from, if it isn't from school, employers, or their parents, with regard to getting jobs?

For the record, I'm not particularly talking about the courses that you are refering to.

I'm talking about strong academic degrees from top 10 university, with students with top marks at A level.

Yes, I am apparently popular with the students. Its simple, you can search the web and find information about most careers and discover the demand for workers in any particular field. For example, one thing you could do is look for recruitment adverts in the field you are considering - are there many jobs? What qualifications and experience do they demand? You'll soon get a sense of the employability that goes with your chosen course. Also, if you are really intent upon entering a certain trade or profession, you will read professional journals, and join professional bodies, and you will have a good awareness of the state of the profession regarding employment prospects. University league tables also include employability statistics. Your parents may or may not know, but they would not be my first choice for objective information. Its a bit like buying an mtb - would you ask your mum which one???? :?

I think I am reacting to what appears to be an external locus of control that this thread suggests, i.e. life is sh*t because of what other people are doing to me / not doing for me, rather than an internal locus whereby you would be the master of your destiny.

So you're offering more or less the same advice that the 'careers' advice lot give? From someone who is a lecturer at a university? Jeez. Should I still be listening to you?


You seem to be suggesting that students are somehow stupid? I'd imagine, if they do make it into a top 10 univeristy, with top marks, they could also come up with that. My experience is they do.

Getting, literally in some cases, 100s of rejections, including many final round interviews, is pretty disheartening. It's not like those people, people who are very able, are being lazy or stupid about it?

A friend in partiucular springs to mind. Very able, 4 As at A level, graduated with a first from Oxford, including various awards for extra curricular activities. Has completed around 7months worth of internships in the field he's chosen (all totally unpaid, so he had to fork out for those too); management consulting; and is currently looking at his 132nd rejection since he graduated in 2008. He's got to 20 final round interviews, of which some have been round 5 (count 'em!), and has been rejected usually on the grounds of "normally we'd take you on, but this year we have better/more experienced candidates", and some because the position has closed due to a worsening of the employers' position.

What should he do? Is he allowed to feel a little agrieved that it is so difficult for him to find a job? And he's certainly not the only one. Anecdotally, I can think of around 10 who are in similar positions.

I've managed to be in employment for a while, a good, hard fought for job, but quit for my own reasons, and am similarly finding it difficult to get a job, and I have a good year's experience paid work!



With this current recession, young people have been hit particularly hard. Over 10% unemployment is not to be sniffed at, and it's well known that many unemployed graduates are not counted on this particular measure, since they do not claim benefit.

As for your average 'graduate job' wage < that figure is a little meaningless when a 'graduate job' is extremely difficult to come by, and most graduates do not find a 'graduate job'.

I get quite frustrated when people like yourself, who have reasonably safe jobs, accuse the young educated unemployed of being totally at fault for their own problems, when they have often done all that one could reasonably expect of a 20odd year old.

Surely your experience of teaching students should tell you the same? Or are they not that high calibre student?

alfablue

I am not saying students are stupid. However, there are choices. Some students have a desire to do a certain course regardless of the employment prospects, others will have given considerable attention to the employment market when choosing their course. And others, obviously, on the spectrum in between. This is (rightly or wrongly) a market economy, and the market applies to jobs as much as anything else. If you expect to do a course of your choice without considering the employment market, then complaining that there are no jobs at the end seems unwise.

Nowhere have I said that young educated unemployed people are totally at fault for their own problems. I wouldn't make such a generalisation. Some students/graduates do behave as if they are owed a living, however.

BTW if you read the link you will see that there are statistics for "Destinations of Leavers from Higher Education" which includes non-graduate jobs, that suggest a mean wage of £19600 - which is still significantly better than non-graduates.

Obviously you are a bit angry with "this country" at the moment, and I sympathise; maybe things will be so much better after tomorrow . . .

. . .

alfablue

a couple of points - I presume that as your friend was so able, he discovered that management consultancy was a boom industry to join?

and secondly, why are unemployed graduates not claiming benefits?

Oh, one more point - can you explain why my advice (essentially, find out for yourself what the employment prospects are in your chosen industry) is so bad? You would advise against this? :?

rick_chasey

alfablue wrote:

a couple of points - I presume that as your friend was so able, he discovered that management consultancy was a boom industry to join?

and secondly, why are unemployed graduates not claiming benefits?

Oh, one more point - can you explain why my advice (essentially, find out for yourself what the employment prospects are in your chosen industry) is so bad? You would advise against this? :?

First: He's been set on it for a while - a little odd I know. As far as I can see he's very well suited to it. He seems to think it's a career which doesn't close too many doors.

Second: Not sure - presumably for some it's a shame thing. Quite a few graduates are, obviously, from well off background, and many return home when they graduate and can't find a job. I'm not hot on benefit rules, but presumably if you live at home with your rents you get less cash?

Finally: It's not bad advice at all. It's more or less exactly the same advice, I, and many others were given throughout our study. I'm not too bad myself: the job I left was a Whitehall graduate job, but I seem to be the exception rather than the rule.

alfablue

I think he could claim job seekers allowance (income based) - it is a small amount, but I don't think your home situation is relevant (other than it opens up other entitlements such as housing benefits and council tax benefits).

Believe it or not, I do have some empathy for young people struggling to find work following the recession. It is not the first one however, and compared to what happened in the '80's and 90's, the overall impact is far less severe, though obviously if you are personally on the receiving end that is no consolation.

rick_chasey

alfablue wrote:

It is not the first one however, and compared to what happened in the '80's and 90's, the overall impact is far less severe

We'll see...

alfablue

Youth unemployment in the 80's was around 2.1m, today it is about 1.6m. Our industries are not being decimated (mainly because they were destroyed in the 80's), and home repossessions have already peaked at a level lower than the 1990's. Of course, as your comment suggests, there may be worse to come, particularly if an overzealous new government induces a "double-dip" . . . I'm thinking of the party that told us to "get on our bikes" in the 1980's.

disgruntledgoat

I learned the hard way about employment prospects for students having graduated with a 3rd in 2003. I gave up on uni a bit as I was working all the time to save money to race in France for 4 months of the summer. When that didn't work out I decided I wanted to go to RMA Sandhurst... When that didn't work out I was left a skint, unemployed, unqualified 21 year old who'd already failed at the 2 things I really wanted to do.

You've just got to suck it up though, I took several really crappy jobs before eventually landing a £6 an hour agency job at a large company and just kept asking questions and offering to do stuff for people... 3 promotions and 5 years later, I reckon I'm doing better than 90% of my peers at uni. It just took a bit longer and I had to work a bit harder.


Point is, the lesson I learned was that the world doesn't owe you a living, you've never "made it" and you can never stop pushing yourself to improve. A lesson that the graduates i've seen come and go in my time would do well to pick up on... They all think that they've immediately made it, that the nuts and bolts stuff of learning the job is beneath them and they should be given strategic, important stuff straight away. That and they can't spell punctuate or write a sentence properly. A lot of them aren't half the candidates they think they are...

freehub

redddraggon wrote:

freehub wrote:

When I've left uni if I go to Uni I'll have around £26,000 student debt.

WTF!

I did a 4yr degree, took the full loan, and it only came to £14,000

Oh, maybe it'll be around £12,000 not including tuition fees, I included the maintenance grant, that's around 3000 quid a year but you get that for free and don't have to pay it back I think.

passout

alfablue wrote:

I am afraid the impression is that you are sheep unable to make your own judgement and feel compelled to do what your parents and the government suggest - then whine when a plum job doesn't fall in your laps. Since when was doing what your parents wanted or the government wanted the smart move? Oh dear, the youth of today :roll:

By the way, the students I teach at my uni all get a job in their chosen field, if they wish. There are other courses where employability is 10% - the statistics were available to them when they chose their course....but sure, its their parents and the governments fault - boo hoo!

I entirely agree with this. Nobody is forced to go to Uni. and there are a wide range of courses available from Mechanical Engineering to Womens' Studies, to suit anybody who wants to try academia. It's up to the individual to do the research make their own mind up - it's their future after all. There is loads of independent information out there from connexions and other bodies.

Blaming your Mummy, Daddy, Teacher, Lecturer, the Government or worst of all the faceless mass that is 'society' is merely avoiding honest reflection - perhaps YOU made the wrong choice, perhaps YOU made the mistake and nobody else to blame?!

By the way apprenticeships are not some magic cure - despite what the politicians say. The labour market and economy have changed in the last 30 years! I had once had the job of finding apprenticeships/internships and it is really difficult to get people in the private sector to provide this. It also surprised me how difficult it was to get young people to take up apprenticeships - they are not very popular and often do not lead to employment. Going to Uni. 'can' be a better choice for the individual but of course it all depends on personal goals and aspirations.

For those of you who say we need more engineers and to 'make things', well this may be true although I have some serious reservations about this. But my point is that this national need is absolutely no reason for a young person to go into engineering. They are only go to do this if either a) they like the idea of been an engineer and /or b) there are actually some engineering jobs / placements for them to aspire towards. Producing loads of engineering graduates or apprenticeships will not create these extra positions - the primary issue here is not one of education but one of industry and the private sector. They are linked of course but the private sector opportunities must come first.