Traffic Chaos Trafalger Square - Wednesday Mornings

gordon861

Hi all,

Just thought I'd pop back here and warn you all that these demos are planned to go ahead every morning this week, mostly due to Boris and his latest foot in mouth comments that were caught on camera.

In case you missed it here it is : http://nutsville.com/?p=2089

We did the demos each day last week and had some interesting results, including a pedestrian that decided he would stop us moving around the roundabout and caused more chaos than we ever do. We also had a PCSO turn up on Lambeth bridge and try and direct the traffic (including telling one coach driver to 'knock them off') his fun was bought to an abrupt end when he told a Chief Inspector to 'go away I am too busy to talk to you'.

I just want to assure you that we are not trying to delay pushbikes, you should find enough space between the motorbikes to allow you to continue to make progress through the square, and most of us will actively lean over or turn the front wheel to allow you to get through, but please bare with us. Of course once you leave the Square you should find the roads heading out are more like a Sunday morning ride rather than a weekday commute because all the cars/busues will still be stuck at the Square.

And finally, if Boris goes along with his threats you guys/girls might be back to just sharing Bus Lanes with Buses and Taxis soon, so that should make some people on here very happy. Even if the latest evidence seems to show that there are less pushbikes hurt in Bus Lanes when the motorbikes are there as well.

prj45

gordon861 wrote:

Well the likelyhood is, that once Westminster have got this scheme in place and accepted there is a good chance they will start doing the same thing for a number of cycle sites as well, and you will be next. They will probably issue you with some sort of metal sticker to attach to the handlebars with a ref number or something. Also it will then spread out across London and the rest of the country like a virus.

Sorry f this has been said already but many are crying out for good/secure on street cycle parking, and if this involves paying for it I imagine many would support it.

gordon861

prj45 - I know how you feel, when the motorcycle scheme was first suggested we were also promised security fixtures to lock too, these never happened.

There is debate amongst motorcyclists as well about paying for parking with security, a lot come out in favour of it. A big objection with the current WCC scheme is that we are now required to pay for something that was until recently free. And we are still expected to leave our bike in locations that are so tight that bikes scratch each other.

On a related note, I see most of the pushbike security that councils offer are just the 'n' shaped bit of tube which you are expected to lean/lock your bike against. I don't ride a pushbike now but when I did I would hae never been happy using those bars due to the damage thay'd do to my bike.

lost_in_thought

gordon861 wrote:

And finally, if Boris goes along with his threats you guys/girls might be back to just sharing Bus Lanes with Buses and Taxis soon, so that should make some people on here very happy. Even if the latest evidence seems to show that there are less pushbikes hurt in Bus Lanes when the motorbikes are there as well.

Would definitely make me happy. I've been knocked twice by motorbikes in bus lanes, but they seem to use ASLs and bike lanes illegally anyhow, so changing the law back will probably see little change in bus lane usage.

However, I'm always open to new facts, care to link the evidence you mention?

gordon861

Lost - I can only say sorry on behalf of the non-idiot riders out there, I think all groups attract them.

The interim report from TfL is on this page : http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/finesan ... 10151.aspx

Direct Link Nov'09 - http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/ ... r-2009.pdf

There's also a couple of Customer research reports at the bottom of that page that make interesting reading.

When Ken was in power there was another report done on the subject for TfL using three trial routes that 'allegedly' was pro allowing them in, but the report/study was never released to the general public or leaked. The rumor was that Ken didn't like the result so wanted major edits. (not being anti-Ken or pro-Boris here, they both have their own agendas)

Also Bristol has let motorbikes in buslanes for a long time now with no increase in accidents.

Here's an article from the Telegraph from 2008 - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/roa ... lanes.html

This is the best I can find quickly from Google.

prj45

gordon861 wrote:

The interim report from TfL is on this page : http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/finesan ... 10151.aspx

hmm

KSIs P2W on Pedestrian, before = one, after = six.

If that trend continues I'd say pedestrian stakeholder groups have quite a big change to consider (although I don't think they were consulted about this originally).

spen666

gordon861 wrote:

Hi all,

Just thought I'd pop back here and warn you all that these demos are planned to go ahead every morning this week, mostly due to Boris and his latest foot in mouth comments that were caught on camera.
.....

So because one person says something you don't like, that justifies you disrupting thousands of others going to work?

Why not take action directly against the person you have an issue with. Try riding round and round his house or City Hall instead

rjsterry

spen666 wrote:

gordon861 wrote:

Hi all,

Just thought I'd pop back here and warn you all that these demos are planned to go ahead every morning this week, mostly due to Boris and his latest foot in mouth comments that were caught on camera.
.....

So because one person says something you don't like, that justifies you disrupting thousands of others going to work?

Why not take action directly against the person you have an issue with. Try riding round and round his house or City Hall instead

I think the idea might be to cause some discomfort. A protest that affects no-one in any way may as well not exist.

I'm not sure the tactic would work around CIty Hall, or Boris's house for that matter due to the road layout, and in any case, the original issue is with Westminster Council I believe - just another case of Boris shooting his mouth off.

Parking is expensive pretty much everywhere in greater London due to land being too valuable to just build car parks on it, and similarly there is always a pressure to get the largest number of spaces possible in a given plot, so parking is a problem for all of us whether on two or four wheels, motorised or not, so I've not got a huge amount of sympathy for the cause, but as protests go, it seems to be quite well thought through.

DonDaddyD

I have to say I'm not overly sympathetic to this cause to be honest.

When I drive a car its nearly given that I have to park nearly everywhere in inner city London. I even have to pay to park on the road I live on. I'm not seeing the rational why motorcycles are exempt.

Also can we (cyclists) protest against motorcycles in the ASL. I had two infront of me last week and due to their exhausts actually found it hard to breath.

rjsterry

We could protest against abuse of the ASL's but for it to be really effective, I think it would need to be a bit more subtle. After all, another Critical Mass would just annoy people without really raising the particular issue in question (one of the flaws with the motorbike protest and the recent black cab protest ) When the protest is detached from the issue that is being protested about, those who haven't read the papers/watched the news just think it's a load of people blocking the road.

A bit of viral internet campaigning (most obvious sort-of example off the top of my head: the moonwalking bear) might raise the issue without it seeming like 'those flippin' cyclists getting in my way again'.

UNITE and the RMT could take this approach as well, as Derek Simpson is part of twitterati now.

gordon861

The protests we run also includes people with flyers and leaflets to hand out to people, we also try to talk to people we are jammed up with. For the most part the response have been understanding or positive from most people.

The best post that explains the objection to the charge in a concise manner is probably this one : http://brokenhelix.co.uk/no-to-bike-parking-charges/

If you read back through the thread (before your own members started arguing with each other) you will see I have tried to cover how I personally feel about the ASL and I've admitted that I to have used them even though I'm not supposed to. I am happy to get into another discussion with you about it if you wish though.

My main goal with coming to your forum is not to get support for what we are doing, rather it is to warn you what you may run into if you cycle in the areas we are operating in. I don't want to get into a fight with you all, I still consider that pushbikes/motorbikes have a lot more in common than motorbikes/cars and we share a lot of the same dangers (like black cabs u-turning in front of you, happened to me 4 weeks ago still walking with a limp).

But aside from that, I do honestly think that once this charge/tax is rolled out over most of the UK councils they will start working on hitting pushbikes next. It is only a matter of time, probably within 5 years or so.
___

Porgy

gordon861 wrote:

But aside from that, I do honestly think that once this charge/tax is rolled out over most of the UK councils they will start working on hitting pushbikes next. It is only a matter of time, probably within 5 years or so.
___

How could they possibly hit cyclists with charges?

you're just trying to scare us into supporting your lost cause :P

gordon861

It wouldn't be too hard to hit bikes with charges.

1. New byelaw, any bikes chained on WCC property must be registered/authorised with WCC. Very easy to do, the registration would include a small 'datatag' type chip that you must fit to your bike. These tags have been used for motorcycle security for at least 10 years and are about the size of a couple of paracetamol (that was 10 years ago, probably smaller now). These tags would have to be within the frame or handlebars somewhere. (you could also use a similar tag to the pet datachips).

2. Any bike found on WCC property without being registered will be removed, impounded and disposed of, in a similar way to when they lift cars from the street.

3. With the motorcycle system, WCC have already managed to push through the fully cashless system. So that won't stop them.

There you go not that complicated to setup, if/when they do you will be in the same situation we are now. You will be protesting against it and all the arguments we have put forward and have had used against us will be the same.

One of the reasons put forward by WCC at the start was 'to control demand due to increases in the number of motorcycles', pushbike numbers are also increasing and space in London is limited. But like I said I'm not here to gain supporters as much as I'm here to warn you what is happening in the area.

prj45

gordon861 wrote:

(before your own members started arguing with each other)

Different people in different people having different opinions shocka!

spen666

rjsterry wrote:

spen666 wrote:

gordon861 wrote:

Hi all,

Just thought I'd pop back here and warn you all that these demos are planned to go ahead every morning this week, mostly due to Boris and his latest foot in mouth comments that were caught on camera.
.....

So because one person says something you don't like, that justifies you disrupting thousands of others going to work?

Why not take action directly against the person you have an issue with. Try riding round and round his house or City Hall instead

I think the idea might be to cause some discomfort. A protest that affects no-one in any way may as well not exist.

....

A protest that only targets innocent people is not going to win any sympathy.

Even BA Cabin Crew are having an efffect on BA with whom they are in dispute.As well as innocent passengers

This protest seems to studiously avoid targetting the people with whom they have a dispute and simply target the innocent

Not going to win much public sympathy from non bikers

prj45

spen666 wrote:

Not going to win much public sympathy from non bikers

Especially when trying to spin the lower pollution line, some of those things do 25mpg and their tailpipes often point up in your face if you're sitting behind one, in an ASL, nice!

rjsterry

gordon861 wrote:

The protests we run also includes people with flyers and leaflets to hand out to people, we also try to talk to people we are jammed up with. For the most part the response have been understanding or positive from most people.

The best post that explains the objection to the charge in a concise manner is probably this one : http://brokenhelix.co.uk/no-to-bike-parking-charges/

If you read back through the thread (before your own members started arguing with each other) you will see I have tried to cover how I personally feel about the ASL and I've admitted that I to have used them even though I'm not supposed to. I am happy to get into another discussion with you about it if you wish though.

My main goal with coming to your forum is not to get support for what we are doing, rather it is to warn you what you may run into if you cycle in the areas we are operating in. I don't want to get into a fight with you all, I still consider that pushbikes/motorbikes have a lot more in common than motorbikes/cars and we share a lot of the same dangers (like black cabs u-turning in front of you, happened to me 4 weeks ago still walking with a limp).

But aside from that, I do honestly think that once this charge/tax is rolled out over most of the UK councils they will start working on hitting pushbikes next. It is only a matter of time, probably within 5 years or so.
___

Oh, blimey, I should have kept that thought to myself, I've set 'em off again

FWIW, I took your posts in the spirit in which (I think) they were intended - i.e. as a heads up, so that we could avoid the area, or at least no what to expect. I also agree that as fellow two-wheelers we share a lot of the vulnerabilities to larger vehicles. Personally (and this'll probably set things off again), so long as cyclists aren't pushed out of the ASLs, I don't have a problem in principle with motorbikes using them (assuming a bit of courtesy to those without an engine). It all comes down to consideration for fellow road users.

As regards the charging for parking, I can see that having been promised secure parking in return for the introduction of charging (fair enough), if the secure bit is replaced with 'actually, we're just going to charge for the spaces you've already got', then it seems like a pretty bad deal. I think I'd feel similarly if charging for pushbikes was introduced - I'd want some improvement in provision in return, not just a naked attempt to rake in a bit more cash. I'm not convinced that it could be introduced by force without it costing far more than the revenue it would generate, so I don't see it coming anytime soon, and in any case, I try not to lock my bike up in the street if at all possible. Obviously, carrying a motorbike up a few flights of stairs isn't feasible.

Porgy

gordon861 wrote:

It wouldn't be too hard to hit bikes with charges.

1. New byelaw, any bikes chained on WCC property must be registered/authorised with WCC. Very easy to do, the registration would include a small 'datatag' type chip that you must fit to your bike. These tags have been used for motorcycle security for at least 10 years and are about the size of a couple of paracetamol (that was 10 years ago, probably smaller now). These tags would have to be within the frame or handlebars somewhere. (you could also use a similar tag to the pet datachips).

2. Any bike found on WCC property without being registered will be removed, impounded and disposed of, in a similar way to when they lift cars from the street.

3. With the motorcycle system, WCC have already managed to push through the fully cashless system. So that won't stop them.

There you go not that complicated to setup, if/when they do you will be in the same situation we are now. You will be protesting against it and all the arguments we have put forward and have had used against us will be the same.

One of the reasons put forward by WCC at the start was 'to control demand due to increases in the number of motorcycles', pushbike numbers are also increasing and space in London is limited. But like I said I'm not here to gain supporters as much as I'm here to warn you what is happening in the area.

Will that apply to children?

gordon861

If they eventually bring in a system they are unlikely to care who the bike belongs to if it's not legally entitled to be there.

mroli

gordon861 wrote:

If they eventually bring in a system they are unlikely to care who the bike belongs to if it's not legally entitled to be there.

You've got to be joking right? They can't issue speeding tickets or fines to cyclists as they're not registered - you don't think that'll be the first place that they'll start? Motorcyclists park in bays that could otherwise be given over to cars and making money which is why they are charging you. Cyclists use lamposts and other street furniture - you think if they started charging to use cycle stands, people wouldn't just leave their bikes elsewhere?

I know it is the case - for Motorbikes, people squeeze their bikes into the London Wall (free) car park - whilst there is loads of lovely space in the NCP on Aldersgate st - but it costs there.

I don't agree with charging motorcyclists - but I also don't agree with your form of protest. I just makes other road users (who you share the road with and are at danger from) think that you're dickheads and is liable to make them treat you accordingly....

gordon861

Cyclists can be issued fines/tickets they are just more difficult to catch. I read on another thread here that someone spotted cops waiting to catch red light jumpers in a street in London earlier this week (I think). As for speeding, no the cops just threaten you with riding dangerously, no points just a fine but it does happen and it's the cops word vs yours so pretty easy in court. It has happened to me in the past when I used to ride a pushbike all the time.

Our protest means might not gel with everyone but over the last 2 years we have tried every other option open to us. You may be suprised to know that the most comon reaction we get from other road users is actually to support what we are doing, I was chatting to a car driver on Monday and his response was "At least you try to stand up for yourselves, unlike car drivers', even though he was stuck on TS for about 10mins.

We are putting pressure on WCC and the GLA in the only legal way we can now.

lost_in_thought

gordon861 wrote:

Lost - I can only say sorry on behalf of the non-idiot riders out there, I think all groups attract them.

The interim report from TfL is on this page : http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/finesan ... 10151.aspx

Direct Link Nov'09 - http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/ ... r-2009.pdf

There's also a couple of Customer research reports at the bottom of that page that make interesting reading.

When Ken was in power there was another report done on the subject for TfL using three trial routes that 'allegedly' was pro allowing them in, but the report/study was never released to the general public or leaked. The rumor was that Ken didn't like the result so wanted major edits. (not being anti-Ken or pro-Boris here, they both have their own agendas)

Also Bristol has let motorbikes in buslanes for a long time now with no increase in accidents.

Here's an article from the Telegraph from 2008 - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/roa ... lanes.html

This is the best I can find quickly from Google.

But, hang on, am I missing something here?

All the reports indicate that cyclists are made to feel less safe by motorbikes being in bus lanes. I can understand that, I certainly feel less safe.

None of the reports indicate that there has been an actual increase in safety, all talk about a 'feeling of safety'.

As for the telegraph article, I'm sorry to say this but it smacks of conspiracy theory.

Porgy

gordon861 wrote:

If they eventually bring in a system they are unlikely to care who the bike belongs to if it's not legally entitled to be there.

If it applies to children then it effectively kills cycling as a viable form of transport - somewhere down the line people will stop cycling altogether. i don;t believe that any government or LA would go down that line for that very reason.

If it applies to children it's difficult to see how the scheme will pay for itself as children do not have an income.

If it doesn;t apply to children then that becomes an obvious loop-hole to be used by any adult - after all I've been riding an adult sized bike since I was 15.

If children;s bikes are taken due to their inabilty to pay or not being part of the scheme then it will p*ss more than a few core supporters of all parties.

Adult cyclists will merely take their bikes into offices/ shops/ etc with them.

Again - it couldn;t possibly pay for itself - unless having a chip inserted into bike was compulsory which would mean police stopping and checking bikes - which is costly and difficult to justify when 20% of cars do not have insurance or legal tax discs.

It will never happen. Your silly scarey fairy stories frighten no-one.

FrankM

I have to confess to a conflict of interest as I cycle to work during the week but sometimes use my scooter to come into central London at the weekends.

I don't think the £1 daily parking charge is excessive particularly when my experience has been that you can park in different motorcycle bays in Westminster on the same day without having to pay the £1 charge again (I ought to clarify here that I'm not sure if this holds true throughout Westminster but it certainly is true around Whitehall and Piccadilly).

As an aside, I do get fed up by all the motorbikes in ASLs. There are often ASLs on my route through North London where there's no room for cyclists at all because of all the motorbikes and scooters there.

cee

gosh. this is a very big thread for what started as a heads up of some busy traffic on wednesday mornings....

Porgy

cee wrote:

gosh. this is a very big thread for what started as a heads up of some busy traffic on wednesday mornings....

if he'd left it as a heads up that would have been fine. Trying to scare us into supporting him with wild conspiracy theories - that's not fine.

cee

Porgy wrote:

cee wrote:

gosh. this is a very big thread for what started as a heads up of some busy traffic on wednesday mornings....

if he'd left it as a heads up that would have been fine. Trying to scare us into supporting him with wild conspiracy theories - that's not fine.

I didn't think he was trying to scare me....and if you think his conspiracy theories are wild...I have read some belters on here before that sink them to the bottom of the deep blue sea.

Most of it seems to me to be other members on here arguing amongst themselves

I actually think some of gordons posts make a lot of sense....

I might not agree with all of his points, but I don't really have a problem with the cut of his jib as it were.

I guess there must be a way to demonstrate against the motorbike campaign in a manner more effectual than shooting the breeze on an internet forum. If any of you really care about it, I guess you can write to Boris and tell him hearhear....make them motorsickles pay.

Personally I don't want a pickle.



Perhaps interesting to some of you....in edinburgh....the majority of bus lanes are only designated as such during certain hours of the day.
like so....


So...all traffic including cars and motorbikes can share lane for the majority of the day. Personally, I do not understand how allowing motorbikes in the bus lane during these periods would make much difference.

Porgy

cee wrote:

I didn't think he was trying to scare me....and if you think his conspiracy theories are wild...I have read some belters on here before that sink them to the bottom of the deep blue sea.

Too right - I hear some people believe that climate change is made up by a conspiracy of hippies, new agers, universities, politicians and scientists all working together to create an evil new society free of pollution while raking in the profits - or something. Apparently.

And I have personally taken on the Moon landing deniers.

I haven't got an issue with the demonstrations though - I stated I supported their right to demonstrate which casued an almighty stink a while back on this thread. but I do - I just don;t support the cause myself and think it's misguided. But there you go. that's freedom of speech for you. Not everyone likes it.

gordon861

I never tried to convert people here, it did start as a 'let people know whats going on' because a lot were asking on the demos. A couple of people took the opportunity to ask me about my thoughts on a number of pushbike/motorbike issues and I was happy to discuss them.

As I said earlier in the thread, I used to ride a pushbike (about 10-15 years ago) all the time, including commuting about 45miles a day, racing at weekends and helping run a cycle club. I stopped because I stopped enjoying it and my shortest route to work was through Southall/Hounslow at rush hour which was insane. I used to expect to have a near miss once a week, a hit every couple of months, and draw blood about every 4-6 months, so I do know how dangerous it is out there for you. The motorbike opens more options to choose a route to work as an extra 10miles doesn't matter, and motorbikes still have the rep with a lot of car drivers that we will fight back and can catch them if they run, so if they see you they seem to be a little more careful. Of course this doesn't stop them not seeing you, as was rammed home to me again 4 weeks ago when a black cab thought a fare was more important than a safety check before pulling a u-turn.

I honestly think that once motorcycle bays are the norm for being charged to use, the next step will be to start charging for the commuter pushbike parking locations(at least the very busy ones), however they decide to do it. I might be wrong but we will see. One of the goals Westminster used when planning to charge for motorcycles was that they wanted to 'manage demand' due to the increased number of motorbikes coming into the borough since the congestion charge. Since the charge the number of pushbikes has also shot up, so the same argument will fit.

There is another demo tomorrow morning but from next week it is just the regular Wednesday morning ones again, and we have the court case on the 24th June.

Also on the 19th June at noon we have what might be massive (or might be dead but hope not), we are planning to get as many bikes as possible to meet at the Ace Cafe and then head up the A40 to the M25, do a full lap clockwise (at about 50mph) and then back to the Ace Cafe. After the event I think the goal is to collect the L-platers and then all hit Westminster at once. The last massed rides to Westminster attracted 4k bikes and if we get that onto the M25 it's going to make an impact. So the mess on the M25 should be clear by 5pm but at least you now know it's happening.

lost_in_thought

gordon861 wrote:

Also on the 19th June at noon we have what might be massive (or might be dead but hope not), we are planning to get as many bikes as possible to meet at the Ace Cafe and then head up the A40 to the M25, do a full lap clockwise (at about 50mph) and then back to the Ace Cafe. After the event I think the goal is to collect the L-platers and then all hit Westminster at once. The last massed rides to Westminster attracted 4k bikes and if we get that onto the M25 it's going to make an impact. So the mess on the M25 should be clear by 5pm but at least you now know it's happening.

OK, the Westminster bit I can understand, but why on earth you feel the need to intentionally snarl up one of the busiest stretches of motorway in the UK, which is used as much by people from all over the country as it is by Londoners, is beyond me. What about the poor souls trying to get to the UK's busiest airport for a flight?

You've definitely lost my support. What a load of inconsiderate nonsense... :evil: