Traffic Chaos Trafalger Square - Wednesday Mornings
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in which case that's assult and the cyclist should be arrested.“So many people are frustrated with it,” she said. “We’re always getting little old ladies who are knocked down and abused by a cyclist, who leaves them on the ground as they ride away.”
Or is it that, possibly, it's one of those little myths that go around and never, or hardly ever, happens, but is useful to use when knee-jerking about cyclists.
I would say a fixed fine is an entirely inadequate response to what is effectively assault. But then I guess that logic is not something that local authorities are particularly blessed with.
As for fixed fines for breaking traffic law - well then fair enough - it's what i say to motorists who moan about speed cameras. Don;t speed then - so don't break the law then.0 -
lost_in_though, you need to read between the lines and consider the modus operandi of the beast. Your trust is, I suspect, misplaced. It is too good a money-making opportunity to miss. OK, so this is how it goes:
Firstly, the idea of paying for parking securely is sold to you. This has happened in the 3 stations mentioned. You can be sure others and key central locations will soon be added.
Secondly, CEO's etc. are given powers to dish out fines for various types of cycling infringements. This is under discussion and Tower Hamlets already have a team dishing out fines to the public for littering etc. It's a small step to respond to the 'stop 'em running down old ladies' contingent by extending their powers.
As I pointed out, the planned 400% rise in cyclists will put pressure on already inadequate parking spaces and create obstructions and hazards to pedestrians. This 'problem' will then need to be 'managed' with new laws. Guess how & by whom? Just like they do with cars and m/cs. Pushbikes are easy to remove or immobilise, so don't think a lack of number plates will save you from fines when you chose to park in an unapproved spot or are deemed to be causing an obstruction.
Here's an extract from another document (Chaper A6: Bicycle Parking Strategy http://www.scribd.com/document_download ... /J/XwZPugE):
The lack of adequate cycle parking facilities will result, almost
inevitably, in an increase in “casual” parking at railings, pedestrian
guard rails, traffic or bus stop poles, or any similar convenient fixture to
which the bicycle can be secured.
This, in turn, reduces the effective footpath space for pedestrians and
the mobility impaired, and can create a number of potential safety
hazards such as protruding handlebars (at children’s eye level), trip
hazards caused by fallen bicycles, obstructions (stacked bicycles
impeding passage) and increased difficulty in gaining access to utilities
for repair and maintenance.
The collection of statistical and/or observed data will enable an
assessment to be made in relation to quantitative demands. For a
more comprehensive picture, however, it is advisable to also seek
opinions, experiences and wishes concerning subjective, or qualitative,
demands, such as –
· Is there a preference for certain types of facility?
· Where should the facilities be located?
· Whether bicycle parking should be subject to tariffs (paid
parking)?
· How much would you be prepared to pay (is there an
acceptable threshold)?
Thus rests the case for the defence, m'lud. May we now have evidence from the prosecution?
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You will be the next cash cows!
Cycling differs from any other form of transport in terms of intial investment - being much lower. If cyclsts are targeted for increasing amounts of cash it will simply reduce the number of cyclists - there will be no money to be made.
and I never leave my bike chained up in central London anyway - so to pay £1.50 and know it's secure will be a godsend tbh.0 -
"If cyclsts are targeted for increasing amounts of cash it will simply reduce the number of cyclists - there will be no money to be made."
What in the same way they make "no money" by charging about the min wage to bring a car into central London?! :roll:
The way all travel costs are going, e.g. rising public transport costs, charges on motorists, the options for cheap travel are being reduced one by one. Pushbikes and feet are the last bastions.0 -
Have you seen the parking facilities at finsbury park and the others?
Outskirts of central London secured access; automated anchors; manned security most of the time, CCTV.
It's more akin to 'park and ride' in provincial cities than on-street parking.0 -
Esinem wrote:"If cyclsts are targeted for increasing amounts of cash it will simply reduce the number of cyclists - there will be no money to be made."
What in the same way they make "no money" by charging about the min wage to bring a car into central London?! :roll:
as i said, if you'd read my post all the way through - cycling differs from other transport as the intial investment is generally much lower. People won;t ride their bikes if they have to pay - they'll get back in their cars or onto public transport.0 -
Porgy, the rolling eyes were not directed at you but at the inevitability of it all. I'm not here to trade insults, just provide a heads up.
The point is they will have us in Catch 22 as every option will attract charges. Cars are already the most expensive option and public transport prices went up 20% last year. So what if they force us onto one of their other cash cows? They will welcome the extra revenue.
I'm very impressed with the secure parking measures in the images I have seen. I wish they'd provide the same level for m/cs. I can see a benefit to paying for good security and appreciate it costs money. Although, why it is not paid for from the savings brought by the reduced congestion and resulting savings, God or, more likely, their accountanst know. Maybe something to do with spunking our money up the wall on dodgy investments and needing to fill the defict. Sadly, my cynicism leads me to believe that this level of service will be short lived. This is the spratt to catch a mackerel. Before long, it will be business as usual. Prices will rocket, free options will be curtailed on safety and obstruction issues and offenders will be fined. I wonder if Ladbrokes will give me odds on it?
Don't shoot the messenger!
PS Just saw this on the NTBPT forum:
"Already if you look around WCC; you'll see signs stating that if your cycle is locked here it will be removed. They do also say to get it back contact the following number quoting the sign number. You'll find these near government buildings... FCO, Downing Street (that would be funny chaining you bike up there... more likely to get shot!), Treasury, St.James Park, etc,etc."
Thus, the prophesy begins to unfold, ye unbelievers! You can bet it's not free to get it back!0 -
Time to start lobbying your employers to provide some secure cycle parking then, I'd say1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
The railings can (currently) only have signs if they're private property, and a private property owner (I am led to believe by my job) has to warn someone well before removing the bike.
By far the majority of the railings in London are privately owned, a cunning ruse by the councils of old to make the maintenance of them an owners cost rather than a council cost, and (again as I've discovered through work) the council can't remove something attached to the privately owned railing unless it's blocking a certain percentage of the public highway, and they certainly can't attach things to the railings.
Of course the laws can change, but a law allowing council to remove items from and add items to private property? I'm not sure it'll fly.0 -
Esinem wrote:Don't shoot the messenger!
I only shoot the messenger when the messenger turns up with ill thought out scaremongering nonsense with abslutely no grounding in reality.
Yeah sure they may try to hit us with fines - we have two approaches there - not break the law when we feel the law is justified and challenge it legally and/or with direct action if we feel it is unjustified.
It's why I'm a member of the LCC - they represent me because I don't have the time or the legal and technical knowledge.
But the idea that we are going to be milked like cash-cows is quite honestly, farcical. There is no money to milk. It's why a lot of people cycle.
If it costs me more than a 20/30 quid a month to cycle including maintenance then I'm going to be back on public transport along with most of London's cyclists - and frankly - as TfL seem to be intent on running the tube and bus services down at the moment then this will be a more expensive option overall. TfL / GLA - ie, Mayor Boris and his cronies, are not going to allow Westminster or any other London Borough to put a spanner into their cycle strategy.0 -
lost_in_thought wrote:Of course the laws can change, but a law allowing council to remove items from and add items to private property? I'm not sure it'll fly.
And laws only change if people allow them to - but you can't challenge a law until a bill has been written.
And frankly if Westminster want to go it alone in a war against cyclists then I have no problem staying out of Westminster while the LCC (and possibly the GLA) challenge it's legality.0 -
lost_in_thought wrote:The railings can (currently) only have signs if they're private property, and a private property owner (I am led to believe by my job) has to warn someone well before removing the bike.
By far the majority of the railings in London are privately owned, a cunning ruse by the councils of old to make the maintenance of them an owners cost rather than a council cost, and (again as I've discovered through work) the council can't remove something attached to the privately owned railing unless it's blocking a certain percentage of the public highway, and they certainly can't attach things to the railings.
Of course the laws can change, but a law allowing council to remove items from and add items to private property? I'm not sure it'll fly.
I guess they would say the warning is the sign, just like in car parks where private clampers operate. You used to be able to park an m/c within the boundaries of a property, e.g. where a garden has been removed and tarmaced/paved. Now, in some boroughs, you can get a ticket unless it is fenced off from pedestrian access. So, yes, they change things to suit themselves. Again, what constitutes and obstruction or a safety hazard is open to interpretation and change. Note the comment about handlebars at kids' eye height to see what I mean. In Tokyo, walking with a cigarette is banned in many streets for the same reason.
As you can see, I don't always talk complete cobblers and do my research. The scenario I paint is not beyond the realms of possibility. Yes, I admit my main agenda like with m/cs but it happening to us all and needs to be reined in. If a few people start to be aware, we might actually end up with a fair system that delivers some benefit rather than another rip off.0 -
Oh, yes, silly me!
Oh, here's another one for those who believe in the impossibility of number plates. The Swiss have another solution. Mind you, I can't say it's a bad idea or expensive. Let's face it, you're right in the doo doo otherwise if you injure somebody and they have a good PI lawyer:
According to Art. 50 of the Swiss Traffic Insurance Ordinance, all types of bicycle must display a valid cycle insurance sticker for liability insurance. This does not apply to guests from abroad who only occasionally travel by bicycle in Switzerland
Cycle InsuranceLiability insurance is compulsory for bicycles. The adhesive insurance vignette ("Velo-Vignette") costs CHF 6.- per year and must be put on your bicycle. These vignettes are sold at the post office as well as at several retail shops.
http://www.ville-ge.ch/geneve/amenageme ... culer.html
Just 'cos you're not paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get you!0 -
The vignette is not a number plate, it's for displaying 3rd party liability insurance. It's not intrinsically linked to the bike's, for example, frame number - it's actually transferable from one bike to another. As for paying a small compulsory fee for insurance, it's a completely reasonable idea.
As a child (I'm half-Swiss) I remember seeing bikes that actually had red-and-white number plates on them in Bern. The fact that they no longer have them is evidence that they didn't work. And if an exceptionally organised country like Switzerland can't get number plates to work, there isn't the remotest possibility that the Brits could ever manage to run a registration system.0 -
I didn't actually claim it was a number plate, just 'another solution'. To be fair, you might well be right about how hard it might be to bring in number plates. I have a feeling that if there's a will, there will be a way. I guess a £100 fine or confiscation for failing to display a plate might be an incentive? Would you display one then?
I can see insurance being compulsory and it's an idea I would support. Meanwhile, it's more likely that more and more tickets will be handed out for moving offences by police and soon council officials. Then unauthorised parking/obstruction issues will be prioritised using removal and/or some form of 'clamping' to enforce it with charges for return/release.0 -
Just a quick warning, we will be back in Trafalger Square tomorrow morning and evening.
Perhaps the drunk cyclist that offered 10p towards parking will bring the other 90p?0 -
What sort of time are you talking about in the morning Gordon? CheersTraining is like fighting with a gorilla. You don’t stop when you’re tired. You stop when the gorilla is tired.0
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We will be around between 8am-9am, and the evening one is 6pm-7pm (I think). Cyclists should be able to pass through any bunches of bikes fairly easily as we aren't bunched up and try to leave gaps between us and other vehicles.
The turnout tomorrow could be up again due to the good weather and the fact that the Chief Executive of Westminster CC decided to send an email telling us that our protests 'cannot continue', that seems to have had a similar effect as poking a hornets nest with a stick. If anyone is interested in reading it I won't post it here but instead link to the thread
http://forum.notobikeparkingtax.com/dis ... continue'/ (I can't get the URL to work, but you need it all to get the thread)
(no registration required to read).
As I said before, we are not trying to disrupt the cycling community and try to allow the bikes to filter through us. But a couple of warnings:
1. Over the last couple of weeks the police that are at the demo, bored with us not breaking the law, have started looking for law breaking in other road users. It's been mostly mouthy car/van drivers but a couple of cyclists have also been pulled over and spoken to, so best behaviour is advised.
2. I've seen a few incidents where pushbikes have rushed into small spots in front of buses and lorries as soon as a small gap opens up, so far no one has been hurt but it's been close. Please be careful as this is one of the easiest ways to increase the cycle deaths in London.
And finally here's one of our latest videos : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiZjxJMXdTM0 -
I actually contacted Westminster about this a while back. I don't use their parking, but I was working on the pastor Niemöller principle and decided to investigate.
One of the councillors replied saying that the reason they had been able to implement motorcycle parking was that they now had a way to allow motorcyclists to pay without having to affix a sticker to their motorcycle.
The argument, apparently, was that in the past a sticker would have been required and because all parts of the motorcycle are exposed, the owner could argue that the sticker had come off or been stolen. Now that they can force people to pay with a mobile phone (and I'm not sure what options there are for paying if you do not have a phone) they no longer require the sticker - it's all automated. This does make it a lot easier to extend this to cyclists.
I agree that there is a real issue here - something that has always been free is now being charged for, with no additional benefit. I know of at least 6 people who've had motorcycles stolen in the area in the last few months, and despite paying their parking fee, there has been _no_ CCTV footage available to them, or if there was it was from private premises who already had cameras in place, not westminster. I'm sure more bikers would be OK with this if they actually got the added security that was promised by westminster when the scheme was introduced.
I also feel that we live in a democracy and these voices should be heard. The council responded very heavy handed in the beginning and refused to hear people out - this is the next step. We wouldn't have the other freedoms that we enjoy today if people weren't prepared to stand up to the encroachment of the state. For the mayor to threaten to take away other privileges because he does not like their democratic protest seemed petty to me.
For my part, when I ride a motorcycle in London, I never ride in the cycle lanes, and I have only twice stopped in the green box and that was because a cars was following too close behind for me to safely stop behind the white line. In those same cases, I would have stopped forward of the white line to protect myself. Just to defend myself in advance
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Those who dance appear insane to those who can\'t hear the music0 -
We will be around between 8am-9am, and the evening one is 6pm-7pm (I think). Cyclists should be able to pass through any bunches of bikes fairly easily as we aren't bunched up and try to leave gaps between us and other vehicles.
Thanks for that and the other info, I shall try to avoid it if I can, good luck with the protest.Training is like fighting with a gorilla. You don’t stop when you’re tired. You stop when the gorilla is tired.0 -
Well we did the demo this morning as planned, it was a quiet affair as we made the decision to not rev the engines or beep the horns for the whole event out of respect for the day.
Most of the cyclists appeare to have no real problems filtering through the motorbikes, most of the problems were caused by car drivers really pushing to go forward that extra inch. Although we have just had a cyclist turn up on the NTBPT forum claiming that "Demonstrations putting cyclists in danger" which I think is a stretch and "when we get to the roundabout your slow moving bikes either cut us up or, as I have witnessed, the exhausts burn cyclist legs" which to me sounds a little deluded.
But just incase I will also post a warning here: Motorcycle engines and exhausts get hot, if your leg is touching the exhaust of a motorcycle you will feel heat and probably end up with a burn, if your leg can touch an exhaust pipe you are also probably too close. The other source of heat you will come accross is the watercooled bikes, when they get hot (about 106C) a fan goes on and starts blowing air through the radiator (like a car) and this are then blows around the bottom of the engine and is often also hot. I know this sounds like I'm just telling people what they already should know, but if the poster is to be believed some people don't know this.
We will continue to try and allow pushbikes and other motorbikes to filter through our events, the only time this becomes difficult is when the police ask/tell us to close up so they can move another vehicle.
Next demo is tonight 6pm-7pm, will probably be a little more noisy tonight.
And finally, this morning I think we had our first actual arrest (not one of us before you gte to excited), it was the traditional White Van Man. One of our riders was talking to the police whilst in the traffic when he was hit from behind knocking him into the police van. When they looked around the passenger was hanging out the window hurling abuse, When the police warned the passenger his response was "You can F**k off C**t as well", which doesn'a appear to have gone down too well. The police told the driver to pull up just of Trafalger Square, they then removed the passenger, cuffed him and stuck him in the back of the van. There was no damage to the bike or the police van so the police let the driver off with just a talking to, our rider was happy to have the police do the same with the passenger, but the police decided that this one was "going to the station".
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gordon861 wrote:And finally, ... The police told the driver to pull up just of Trafalger Square, they then removed the passenger, cuffed him and stuck him in the back of the van. There was no damage to the bike or the police van so the police let the driver off with just a talking to, our rider was happy to have the police do the same with the passenger, but the police decided that this one was "going to the station".
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If only that happened more often. The arrest for hurling abuse for no good reason, not the shunt, obviously1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Esinem wrote:Oh, yes, silly me!
Oh, here's another one for those who believe in the impossibility of number plates. The Swiss have another solution. Mind you, I can't say it's a bad idea or expensive. Let's face it, you're right in the doo doo otherwise if you injure somebody and they have a good PI lawyer:
According to Art. 50 of the Swiss Traffic Insurance Ordinance, all types of bicycle must display a valid cycle insurance sticker for liability insurance. This does not apply to guests from abroad who only occasionally travel by bicycle in Switzerland
Cycle InsuranceLiability insurance is compulsory for bicycles. The adhesive insurance vignette ("Velo-Vignette") costs CHF 6.- per year and must be put on your bicycle. These vignettes are sold at the post office as well as at several retail shops.
http://www.ville-ge.ch/geneve/amenageme ... culer.html
Just 'cos you're not paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get you!
A lot of us already have cycle liability insurance, not the same as a license plate.0 -
@Amnezia Insurance is a sensible precaution in today's litigious society. True, a 'vignette' is not the same as a licence plate. However, as I said before, if there's a 'problem' it can be solved, especially if it makes money. I understand that the decision to charge m/cs for parking was much to do with finding suitable technology to apply it, as the existing Pay & Display stickers could not reliably be used.
As far as parking enforcement is concerned, removal or immobilisation will be the preferred method for cycles pro tem.
Unless, enforcers have a means of pulling a cyclist over and ID-ing him if he doesn't stop, e.g. numberplate, enforcement of moving offences will be harder. Technology will provide an answer. How long before we are encouraged to install a 'security chip' to help ID in the event of theft or to activate a parking place? How long before that facilitates enforcement? Sounds unlikely? I'm old enough to remember when the sort of mobile phones we have now would have been unbelievable in a Bond or sci-fi movie and being incredulous when Apricot launched a PC with an 'enormous' 5Mb (yes, that's MEGAbytes, not giga or terrabytes) of hard drive storage wondering how folk would ever fill the drive. Times change!0 -
Just a quick reminder that we'll be in the Trafalger Square or surrounding area tomorrow morning and evening, so don't forget to say hi if you are passing. As always we will try to allow cycles to pass us safely.
And I'll repeat the warning, exhaust pipes do get hot so I suggest you don't try to brush against them.
Also, there will be police in attendance so guys and girls watch those red lights please.
At least the tube stike has been cancelled ...
edit
forgot the vids from last week
Our first arrest : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rf-pag9M33M
Memorial ride : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZ2gfH2_AyE
Dangerous taxi driver : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lINd8VUm41k
(reported to public carriage office, await reply)0 -
gordon861 wrote:Just a quick reminder that we'll be in the Trafalger Square or surrounding area tomorrow morning and evening, so don't forget to say hi if you are passing. As always we will try to allow cycles to pass us safely.
And I'll repeat the warning, exhaust pipes do get hot so I suggest you don't try to brush against them.
Also, there will be police in attendance so guys and girls watch those red lights please.
At least the tube stike has been cancelled ...
edit
forgot the vids from last week
Our first arrest : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rf-pag9M33M
Memorial ride : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZ2gfH2_AyE
Dangerous taxi driver : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lINd8VUm41k
(reported to public carriage office, await reply)
Saw you chaps last Wednesday evening - think you were outnumbered by the police hiding on The Mall! What sort of numbers were you expecting, and how many turned up?0 -
I don't know about the evening ones as I can't make them at the moment, but the mornings we normally get between 30-50 bikes which is enough for our needs.
Also, depending on what time you got there you might have caught the start/end as the police hide at the mall until we get there normally.
If we decide to hit WCC directly it only takes 10-15 to close them down fully once we reach the doors, and extra are just additional hassle for them. But they keep spoiling the fun by adding barriers when they think we are coming to visit.0 -
We were only at TS for 20mins today as we were hardly needed, the bendy buses do a better job of blocking the traffic than we could ever do. Very few problems today except a Porsche driver that thought he owned the road so rammed a bike from behind, fair bit of damage to the front og the car bumper so he must have hit fairly hard.
After 20mins of TS we decided to take the fight to Westminsters door ... in some cases through it. We took bikes to both entrances to the WCC offices and block all ways into the building. Neraly everyone was good natured about the event with the odd aggressive idiot. We were there for an hour or so and then decided to leave them to it.
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