Overbiking

RealMan

supersonic wrote:

Stop talking bollocks now.

Nothing like a reasoned debate..

:roll:

Anonymous

RealMan wrote:

supersonic wrote:

Stop talking bollocks now.

Nothing like a reasoned debate..

:roll:

to be fair, you seem to have a problem that you refuse to explain i think there is only one ego on show here and its yours.

Radioactiveman

People can buy what they want as far as I am concerned. Overbiked means plenty of clean tidy ebay bargains

supersonic

It has been given, but you are not listening.

Your view of too much bike is not the all encompassing definition of what should be ridden by an individual on a given trail. People have different sorts of bikes for different reasons. Sure, when giving advice we try and steer them towards what we think is most suitable for them - but maybe they want more travel, slacker angles, heavier duty parts, parts for comfort etc. Empathise.

Of course some combinations may look ridiculous, but even then, if you have discussd the options and they go for something else, then it is up to them. Even these people may have their reasons. Some may be idiots granted - but you seem to be banding them all together...

I ride often a 80mm hardtail around wharncliffe. I have done it rigid. Other use 160mm bikes. Are they over biked? Are the egotistical or badly informed? Absolutely not. Different reasons, different riders. It is not as black and white as you say.

mancjon

Realman

If you don't already i suggest you start reading the Daily Mail because you show about as much tolerance as they do

el loco pollo

RealMan wrote:

But their opinion is only formed because they are badly informed. Or egotistical.

You seem to feel threatened by the big boys on their big bikes. Let me guess, you also take offence at people who drive big/fast cars or wear expensive clothing?

toasty

sheepsteeth wrote:

i dont know who thinks its a good idea to start on a "starter bike", i appreciate in other sports, more advanced machines and equipment may be a hinderance but in mountain biking as far as i can tell, the better the sooner is the way to go.

i cant see why anyone who decided to ride dh couldnt learn on a superb bike, made by specialized seeing as the current world best rides one, i dont understand what you would learn by hurtling down a hill on a P.O.S :?

Tried a top end racing hardtail or full susser? They're really not designed for comfort, I'd see that more being comparable to the skiing analogy.

The silly thing is the OP refers to someone on an Orange Five, which is a pretty safe, do everything beast, certainly not an 18lb racey hardtail or similar.

RealMan wrote:

Yes, but overall, when having a bigger bike makes you slower - is it still better? As in, if you could, would you ride a bigger bike everywhere, even if it made you slower?

And to whoever said it, why is a £2k rigid SS a POS?

What's the problem with going slower? Lets be honest, your friends aren't going to set any loop records on rigid singlespeeds are they, hardly the point though is it? They're trying to be niche by copying all the other niche riders.

I'm sure it's fantastic fun if you're so inclined, I've given it a try, really not my thing though Couple of pounds to speed me up, the 75% of the time when I'm not at the perfect terrain seems like a win, same for suspension.

RealMan

Toasty wrote:

The silly thing is the OP refers to someone on an Orange Five, which is a pretty safe, do everything beast, certainly not an 18lb racey hardtail or similar.

Try riding around here, then you will see why its big. Very tame around here. Very.

supersonic wrote:

Sure, when giving advice we try and steer them towards what we think is most suitable for them - but maybe they want more travel, slacker angles, heavier duty parts, parts for comfort etc. Empathise.

But the majority of people who are overbiked are beginners - they don't know what travel or angles they need, they just think they know from reading MBUK or whatever. A lot of them will hardly even know what a slacker angle will do - they just think the slacker, the bigger, the more travel, the more their riding will transform into something out of seasons.

It seems like a lot of people just seem to have one idea in their head, that bigger is better. Some people have displayed that attitude here.

Its why you see people on full sus Apollo bikes. They are absolute rubbish, and so much slower then what they would be better off on - a rigid. But look! Its got rear suspension! It must be awesome..

supersonic

So some people then, just as we have been saying ;-). Your post sounds more logical now and not as sweeping as before. But...

I agree some beginners (or otherwise) may not know what will suit them best, will bow to fashion, but they can learn over time what does suit them. I did. And as above, speed isn't everything lol. For many comfort and the ability to flatter mistakes is key, especially the occasional rider.

RealMan

To buy a bike to give you comfort and to flatter your mistakes.. God I hope I never grow as old and boring as that..

I know a guy who is 65(ish) and is just getting into MTBing. He's already got himself two mountain bikes, and has been on a skills course. He really wants to learn how to jump - he was telling me he pulled a "really nice jump off when I was sessioning a trail". Hearing that, from a 65(ish) year old. Fantastic. Hope I'm like that when I'm old. He's far too busy learning how to ride better to be bothered about comfort - and he would rather learn from his mistakes, rather then just "flatter" them.

But I guess I can understand.

rudedog

RealMan wrote:

To buy a bike to give you comfort and to flatter your mistakes.. God I hope I never grow as old and boring as that..

I know a guy who is 65(ish) and is just getting into MTBing. He's already got himself two mountain bikes, and has been on a skills course. He really wants to learn how to jump - he was telling me he pulled a "really nice jump off when I was sessioning a trail". Hearing that, from a 65(ish) year old. Fantastic. Hope I'm like that when I'm old. He's far too busy learning how to ride better to be bothered about comfort - and he would rather learn from his mistakes, rather then just "flatter" them.

But I guess I can understand.

Out of interest, how old are you?

toasty

I think you're flattering yourself too much to even assume you have anything in common with the older guy. He sounds fairly down to earth and can see where the fun in the sport is, you're moaning about other people's bikes having too much suspension and trying to follow this weeks niche crowd.

Get a rigid singlespeed, it'll be awesome fun for a month or two I'm sure. Slower over most interesting terrain, losing tons of speed on the rough, with bags less traction. But then who cares about speed right? Oh, hang on...

RealMan

Toasty wrote:

I think you're flattering yourself too much to even assume you have anything in common with the older guy. He sounds fairly down to earth and can see where the fun in the sport is, you're moaning about other people's bikes having too much suspension and trying to follow this weeks niche crowd.

Get a rigid singlespeed, it'll be awesome fun for a month or two I'm sure. Slower over most interesting terrain, losing tons of speed on the rough, with bags less traction. But then who cares about speed right? Oh, hang on...

Did I say I had anything in common with him? I said I hoped to be like him..

And I would, if I had the money.. If you give me some money, I could?

I'll admit, SSers rarely come first..



And I'm 18, rudedog.

capoz77

RealMan wrote:

Toasty wrote:

The silly thing is the OP refers to someone on an Orange Five, which is a pretty safe, do everything beast, certainly not an 18lb racey hardtail or similar.

Try riding around here, then you will see why its big. Very tame around here. Very.

supersonic wrote:

Sure, when giving advice we try and steer them towards what we think is most suitable for them - but maybe they want more travel, slacker angles, heavier duty parts, parts for comfort etc. Empathise.

But the majority of people who are overbiked are beginners - they don't know what travel or angles they need, they just think they know from reading MBUK or whatever. A lot of them will hardly even know what a slacker angle will do - they just think the slacker, the bigger, the more travel, the more their riding will transform into something out of seasons.

It seems like a lot of people just seem to have one idea in their head, that bigger is better. Some people have displayed that attitude here.

Its why you see people on full sus Apollo bikes. They are absolute rubbish, and so much slower then what they would be better off on - a rigid. But look! Its got rear suspension! It must be awesome..

I'll agree on the halfrauds full sus rubbish, but they're generally just teens.

I don't agree if you see someone on a trail on a £3k bike and you deem the trail to be easy they become "overbiked" in your mind. Without knowing their, lifestyle, usual trails, preferences, - without actually knowing them at all, your just creating issues for yourself.

Chill out and enjoy your ride, don't worry about other peoples choices haha

"i might take my Santa Cruz V10 with 10" travel down the canal for a 20 mile ride instead of my hardtail" - reading that does it make you angry?

RealMan

capoz77 wrote:

I'll agree on the halfrauds full sus rubbish, but they're generally just teens.

Yes, but its about the attitude. It starts off early.

capoz77 wrote:

I don't agree if you see someone on a trail on a £3k bike and you deem the trail to be easy they become "overbiked" in your mind. Without knowing their, lifestyle, usual trails, preferences, - without actually knowing them at all, your just creating issues for yourself.

How many times... :roll: We're not talking about money here. Someone on a £3k rigid bike will be underbiked, where as someone on a £3k downhill bike will be overbiked, on an average descent. And also hopefully for the last time, you can only really say someone is wrongly biked when you know what they're using it for.


And anyway, I think supersonic and I came to a pretty decent conclusion a few posts up. People who are misinformed or egotistical or have just given up trying to get better and just want to be comfortable and continue riding, overbike. People who want a challenge or want to learn how to ride better, underbike. Racers use the right bike for the job every time (but then, they're after speed more then anything else).

capoz77 wrote:

"i might take my Santa Cruz V10 with 10" travel down the canal for a 20 mile ride instead of my hardtail" - reading that does it make you angry?

Angry? lol. Nope, I'd just think - god, that would be boring. And slow. And hard work.

capoz77

RealMan wrote:

capoz77 wrote:

I'

Angry? lol. Nope, I'd just think - god, that would be boring. And slow. And hard work.

How so?


how can you assume someone on a full sus is going to be slow and making work for themselves?

i'm a hell of a lot faster on my Heckler than my hardtail on road and flat.

The bike fits like a glove, is very comfy, and great at pedalling.

Northwind

RealMan wrote:

Someone on a £3k rigid bike will be underbiked, where as someone on a £3k downhill bike will be overbiked, on an average descent.

Says who? By your standards they might be, by their tastes it might be exactly right. Your whole argument seems to be about other people's opinions being invalid. I put my rigid forks on my Soul and took it down the local downhill track. Very difficult, bit scary, bit silly maybe. Underbiked? No, exactly right for what I wanted to do.

pvtpile

hes not saying someone on a fs is slower hes saying you on your v10 would be slower

RealMan

capoz77 wrote:

i'm a hell of a lot faster on my Heckler than my hardtail on road

What is your hardtail...?

I admit, if you've got 2.5 high rollers on your 40lb HT, and slicks on your light build heckler and lock out the suspension, it may just be quicker.

But otherwise?

Northwind wrote:

I put my rigid forks on my Soul and took it down the local downhill track. Very difficult, bit scary, bit silly maybe. Underbiked? No, exactly right for what I wanted to do.

Good for you! I think more people should do stuff like that. Challenging yourself is how people improve. And its more fun when you pull it off.

supersonic

People who are misinformed or egotistical or have just given up trying to get better and just want to be comfortable and continue riding, overbike. People who want a challenge or want to learn how to ride better, underbike. Racers use the right bike for the job every time (but then, they're after speed more then anything else).

I didn't actually say that! My whole argument revolves around that we see different ways of tackling the same job, so what may be the right bike for your or I maybe the wrong one for someone else. Or less suited.

I don't underbike, overbike or even womble free - I use what I like, for my own reasons.

NatoED

i think a lot of new riders would benefit from riding a HT rather than straight to FS.

John Stevenson

RealMan wrote:

So the other people that buy a bike that's too big for their riding, why do they do it?

Because they bloody enjoy owning and riding them. Nothing else matters.

Northwind

RealMan wrote:

Good for you! I think more people should do stuff like that. Challenging yourself is how people improve. And its more fun when you pull it off.

It was good fun. Need to do some more of that... But the thing is, how come if I do it it's "good for you" but if someone else does it they're underbiked? I guess you know I know what I want but for other people you assume they don't?

John Stevenson

RealMan wrote:

People who are misinformed or egotistical or have just given up trying to get better and just want to be comfortable and continue riding, overbike. People who want a challenge or want to learn how to ride better, underbike.

That's the biggest pile of elitist cobblers I've ever read. What right do you think you have to dole out this prescriptive garbage about how other people have fun.

For the record, my ability to ride technical trails improved when I switched a duallie back in the 90s and those skill improvements carried across to riding a hardtail too.

So

a) Your premise is wrong, because one can improve by equipment changes that you'd describe as over biking

ii) Your premise is wrong because it's none of your damn business how other people have fun

and

3) Your premise is wrong because you have no right to decide that anyone else is 'misinformed or egotistical' while making ignorant and egotistical statements yourself.

Are you sure you're not actually a 1950s roadie?

toasty

RealMan wrote:

And I'm 18, rudedog.

Ahh, you're just being all angsty and trying to be alternative, I did wonder.

furby

Can realman buy me a DH/FR bike so Im not underbiked at the downhill track? and a AM bike so Im not overbiked riding the DH bike on trails? Dont worry Realman, iv already got a hardtail so iv already got easier trails and commuting covered.....

Eranu

Try riding around here, then you will see why its big. Very tame around here. Very.

Come on that guy doesn't just ride in flat land where you do does he? I live what 10 miles from you? There plenty of stuff that a bike lke that wouldn't be considered overbiked for north east of you. Sure lots of people ride it on Hardtails/Rigids/Childs Barbie Bikes but probably not as fast given the same skill level.

RealMan

Northwind wrote:

It was good fun. Need to do some more of that... But the thing is, how come if I do it it's "good for you" but if someone else does it they're underbiked? I guess you know I know what I want but for other people you assume they don't?

You act like being underbiked is a bad thing. Its only a bad thing if you're out of your skill depth and unable to ride without falling off/the bike falling to pieces. Else, its a brilliant way to learn and have fun. Equally, overbiking is only a bad thing when riders are doing it because they either believe they're riding is "rad enough" for it, or because due to MBUKitus, they believe they need it. Otherwise they're just after comfort and the ability to flatter mistakes, like supersonic said. Its just a shame that most riders do seem to fall into the first two categories.

Eranu wrote:

Come on that guy doesn't just ride in flat land where you do does he?

Yes. That's the whole point.

NatoED wrote:

i think a lot of new riders would benefit from riding a HT rather than straight to FS.

Maybe, but short travel FS, rigids, bmxs, all offer the ability to learn skills that will come in useful.

John Stevenson wrote:

Because they bloody enjoy owning and riding them. Nothing else matters.

Of course, but its the reasons why they enjoy owning and riding them that I'm interested in, which brings us right back to the "bigger is better" attitude that a lot of riders seem to have.

Surf-Matt

I'd forgotten about this thread!

I feel realman does have some valid points but is being battered by many who are too quick to jump on the bandwagon.

Let's give examples -

A timid rider on a slightly downhill using a full on DH rig - it can't be ridden up a hill, it'll just batter the terrain and it'll just be the wrong bike - I've seen this many times.

The unfit and rather overweight rider who spends a fortune on the lightest machine available yet it likely to break it because he doesn't have the finesse and skill (notice "he" - very rarely do "shes" overbike) and will find it skittish and a PITA to ride half the time - the wrong bike. I've seen this many times.

It's not elitist - it's just the way it is.

Many "surfers" get the trickest "pro" surfboard far too early - it's too sinky, it's hard to catch waves on and very unstable yet it looks cool - they hold themselves back by thinking throwing money at kit will make them better - it actually does the opposite sometimes.

supersonic

Yes there are examples but before it was more sweeping than that. And even these examples - they may get better/fitter or just be happy with what they have!