Power, is it all that?

Horta

I know current thinking says that if you're gonna be "serious" about your training, then you have to use power. But with power meters costing the same as a bike (well the kind of bike I could afford) I presume there aren't that many people that actually have them. So for "normal" riders, 4th through 2nd cats, sportivers and testers what do we do?

Are the HRM and HR zones still relevant and useful? While boring myself rigid on the turbo, watching my HR climb skyward as my temperature rises, am I still getting a good work out? Or should I junk technology and go on "feel"? Use the force Luke, I believe someone once said, but I don't think he was sat on a turbo at the time.

If I'm logging HR, speed, cadence and distance, over a set course or routine on the turbo and then repeating and seeing improvements (or not) is this still an effective system and could it be just as relevant, although maybe not as scientific, as unaffordable power meters?

Discuss....

SBezza

Obviously HR, speed, feel etc, are not as good as training with a power meter, but you can get very good training using these methods.

They will lack the accuracy of a power meter, I use mainly HR for road rides, but I do use power on the turbo, as though it may not be accurate, mine at least appears to be pretty repeatable. If you can get a turbo that measures power, then you can get slightly better turbo training.

I can beat people that train with power, so they might be able to get better quality/accuracy training, but they are still lacking something.

I think you have to train the best way you can afford, is a power meter desirable, then that is a big YES. Is it a necessity, then that is a big NO

oldwelshman

Lots of people on here use them.
I do not use anything for training though i do have a Garmin if I want to record miles ridden but as I know all the routes I do I even know the mileage.
I do not log anything either though some people like to log their progress and measure their improvements.
I tend do do block training a few weeks at a time aiming for specific target dates,where I mix my rides, some steady others hard but don't do any specific training on the road though I do specific training when I go to the Veledrome in Newport.
I know when I am getting fit and have a very good feel for how well I am going and my waistline also tells me if I need to up my rides
There are many different ways to train and many ways to log your training and monitor progress but no hard and fast rules, its more of a personal thing but I guess I am quite old fashioned but when I race I have a very good feel for how I am going and how far I can push which is important.
I have tried various things including power meter I just did not get along with it and prefer to enjoy my rides without all the hassle iof training aids.
Some people get a kick out of all the data they get , good luck to them just not for me.

chrisw12

Power meters costing more than a bike, you're having a larf, go to the buying advice forum, people spend more on brakes. '...Which £2000 bike shall I buy!!,,,', no buy a £1300 bike, and buy a powertap is a much better alternative imho


To answer your question though, how serious. At the bottom end I'm investing a lot of time in this sport, why waste that time and not take it seriously.

Also, trust me, you'll want one when your mate buys one and then starts beating you, serious or not.

oldwelshman

chrisw12 wrote:

Power meters costing more than a bike, you're having a larf, go to the buying advice forum, people spend more on brakes. '...Which £2000 bike shall I buy!!,,,', no buy a £1300 bike, and buy a powertap is a much better alternative imho


To answer your question though, how serious. At the bottom end I'm investing a lot of time in this sport, why waste that time and not take it seriously.

Also, trust me, you'll want one when your mate buys one and then starts beating you, serious or not.

Why would buying a power meter make his mate beat him?
You can buy a power meter ok but if you dont ride and train how will it make you faster, its your legs that make you faster not a power meter. I don't recall my bike going faster with a powertap ?

Pokerface

oldwelshman wrote:

chrisw12 wrote:

Power meters costing more than a bike, you're having a larf, go to the buying advice forum, people spend more on brakes. '...Which £2000 bike shall I buy!!,,,', no buy a £1300 bike, and buy a powertap is a much better alternative imho


To answer your question though, how serious. At the bottom end I'm investing a lot of time in this sport, why waste that time and not take it seriously.

Also, trust me, you'll want one when your mate buys one and then starts beating you, serious or not.

Why would buying a power meter make his mate beat him?
You can buy a power meter ok but if you dont ride and train how will it make you faster, its your legs that make you faster not a power meter. I don't recall my bike going faster with a powertap ?

Yeah, but you're old and stuck in your ways.

Any power measurement system will help train those glorious legs of yours more efficiently. There's a reason why most pro and national teams use them to improve their riders.

It gives you specific targets to work towards.

Yes - you can train without one. But do it right and you can train BETTER with one. There is no possible way you can train to targets if you don't know what your targets are - and power measurement gives you that.

But you still need the engine.

chrisw12

oldwelshman wrote:

chrisw12 wrote:

Power meters costing more than a bike, you're having a larf, go to the buying advice forum, people spend more on brakes. '...Which £2000 bike shall I buy!!,,,', no buy a £1300 bike, and buy a powertap is a much better alternative imho


To answer your question though, how serious. At the bottom end I'm investing a lot of time in this sport, why waste that time and not take it seriously.

Also, trust me, you'll want one when your mate buys one and then starts beating you, serious or not.

Why would buying a power meter make his mate beat him?
You can buy a power meter ok but if you dont ride and train how will it make you faster, its your legs that make you faster not a power meter. I don't recall my bike going faster with a powertap ?

I dunno, magic I suppose.

Last year, I was beating my mate, he buy's a powertap, following week he beats me! His name was Jones (Welsh. :P) , so to keep up with him I had to buy one. Following week, I beat him. It must be the answer.

oldwelshman

chrisw12 wrote:

oldwelshman wrote:

chrisw12 wrote:

Power meters costing more than a bike, you're having a larf, go to the buying advice forum, people spend more on brakes. '...Which £2000 bike shall I buy!!,,,', no buy a £1300 bike, and buy a powertap is a much better alternative imho


To answer your question though, how serious. At the bottom end I'm investing a lot of time in this sport, why waste that time and not take it seriously.

Also, trust me, you'll want one when your mate buys one and then starts beating you, serious or not.

Why would buying a power meter make his mate beat him?
You can buy a power meter ok but if you dont ride and train how will it make you faster, its your legs that make you faster not a power meter. I don't recall my bike going faster with a powertap ?

I dunno, magic I suppose.

Last year, I was beating my mate, he buy's a powertap, following week he beats me! His name was Jones (Welsh. :P) , so to keep up with him I had to buy one. Following week, I beat him. It must be the answer.

yeah right

oldwelshman

Pokerface wrote:

oldwelshman wrote:

chrisw12 wrote:

Power meters costing more than a bike, you're having a larf, go to the buying advice forum, people spend more on brakes. '...Which £2000 bike shall I buy!!,,,', no buy a £1300 bike, and buy a powertap is a much better alternative imho


To answer your question though, how serious. At the bottom end I'm investing a lot of time in this sport, why waste that time and not take it seriously.

Also, trust me, you'll want one when your mate buys one and then starts beating you, serious or not.

Why would buying a power meter make his mate beat him?
You can buy a power meter ok but if you dont ride and train how will it make you faster, its your legs that make you faster not a power meter. I don't recall my bike going faster with a powertap ?

Yeah, but you're old and stuck in your ways.

Any power measurement system will help train those glorious legs of yours more efficiently. There's a reason why most pro and national teams use them to improve their riders.

It gives you specific targets to work towards.

Yes - you can train without one. But do it right and you can train BETTER with one. There is no possible way you can train to targets if you don't know what your targets are - and power measurement gives you that.

But you still need the engine.

Old but not stuck in ways I have trained using hr and also with power tap.
If everything was done on data then how come Cavandish was not selected for the accademy years ago as his power measurements were not seen as good enough compared to other riders ?
My targets are events not to reach a certain power output, basically a watch is also a very good training tool, if I do 200m, 750m or pursuit faster than before I guess my power has increased ?
You can also ride and train to schedules on the track with respect to laptimes.
As I said it is a personal thing and more than one way to skin a cat.
I wonder what the pros did before power meters then ? :?

Pokerface

oldwelshman wrote:

Pokerface wrote:

oldwelshman wrote:

chrisw12 wrote:

Power meters costing more than a bike, you're having a larf, go to the buying advice forum, people spend more on brakes. '...Which £2000 bike shall I buy!!,,,', no buy a £1300 bike, and buy a powertap is a much better alternative imho


To answer your question though, how serious. At the bottom end I'm investing a lot of time in this sport, why waste that time and not take it seriously.

Also, trust me, you'll want one when your mate buys one and then starts beating you, serious or not.

Why would buying a power meter make his mate beat him?
You can buy a power meter ok but if you dont ride and train how will it make you faster, its your legs that make you faster not a power meter. I don't recall my bike going faster with a powertap ?

Yeah, but you're old and stuck in your ways.

Any power measurement system will help train those glorious legs of yours more efficiently. There's a reason why most pro and national teams use them to improve their riders.

It gives you specific targets to work towards.

Yes - you can train without one. But do it right and you can train BETTER with one. There is no possible way you can train to targets if you don't know what your targets are - and power measurement gives you that.

But you still need the engine.

Old but not stuck in ways I have trained using hr and also with power tap.
If everything was done on data then how come Cavandish was not selected for the accademy years ago as his power measurements were not seen as good enough compared to other riders ?
My targets are events not to reach a certain power output, basically a watch is also a very good training tool, if I do 200m, 750m or pursuit faster than before I guess my power has increased ?
You can also ride and train to schedules on the track with respect to laptimes.
As I said it is a personal thing and more than one way to skin a cat.
I wonder what the pros did before power meters then ? :?

Cav DID make the academy.
Pros are better today because of power measurement.

And you are correct - power measurement is largely irrelevant on the track where conditions are controlled. The wind always blows in the same direction. The road conditions don't change. Time is the most important thing.

On the road, you can't control weather conditions, etc, so you need more than just a stopwatch to assess performances.

a_n_t

Pokerface wrote:

On the road, you can't control weather conditions, etc, so you need more than just a stopwatch to assess performances.

dont supose you have any power data from saturdays 10 do you? As we did the same time almost?

oldwelshman

Pokerface wrote:

oldwelshman wrote:

Pokerface wrote:

oldwelshman wrote:

chrisw12 wrote:

Power meters costing more than a bike, you're having a larf, go to the buying advice forum, people spend more on brakes. '...Which £2000 bike shall I buy!!,,,', no buy a £1300 bike, and buy a powertap is a much better alternative imho


To answer your question though, how serious. At the bottom end I'm investing a lot of time in this sport, why waste that time and not take it seriously.

Also, trust me, you'll want one when your mate buys one and then starts beating you, serious or not.

Why would buying a power meter make his mate beat him?
You can buy a power meter ok but if you dont ride and train how will it make you faster, its your legs that make you faster not a power meter. I don't recall my bike going faster with a powertap ?

Yeah, but you're old and stuck in your ways.

Any power measurement system will help train those glorious legs of yours more efficiently. There's a reason why most pro and national teams use them to improve their riders.

It gives you specific targets to work towards.

Yes - you can train without one. But do it right and you can train BETTER with one. There is no possible way you can train to targets if you don't know what your targets are - and power measurement gives you that.

But you still need the engine.

Old but not stuck in ways I have trained using hr and also with power tap.
If everything was done on data then how come Cavandish was not selected for the accademy years ago as his power measurements were not seen as good enough compared to other riders ?
My targets are events not to reach a certain power output, basically a watch is also a very good training tool, if I do 200m, 750m or pursuit faster than before I guess my power has increased ?
You can also ride and train to schedules on the track with respect to laptimes.
As I said it is a personal thing and more than one way to skin a cat.
I wonder what the pros did before power meters then ? :?

Cav DID make the academy.
Pros are better today because of power measurement.

And you are correct - power measurement is largely irrelevant on the track where conditions are controlled. The wind always blows in the same direction. The road conditions don't change. Time is the most important thing.

On the road, you can't control weather conditions, etc, so you need more than just a stopwatch to assess performances.

The op asked if other training methods are still relevant and in a nutshell, yes they are.
I am not sure the wind blows in the same direction on the track? it seems to change weekly at Welwyn.
As for the claim pros are better today because of power meters is a bit of an exageration, think there are lots of improvements in conditioning, lifestyle (maybe not boonen ) equipment etc.
It seems like the power meters are more commonly used by members on this forum than people I have met racing either on the track or road but they do seem more popular with testers though.
Personally I think they are a training aid of benefit for elite riders but for your average club cyclist or lower cat riders and sportive riders maybe a bit of an overkill and a luxury.
I would prefer to get a nice new spare set of quality wheels for same price or traing trip to Majorca

Alex_Simmons/RST

Horta wrote:

I know current thinking says that if you're gonna be "serious" about your training, then you have to use power. But with power meters costing the same as a bike (well the kind of bike I could afford) I presume there aren't that many people that actually have them. So for "normal" riders, 4th through 2nd cats, sportivers and testers what do we do?

Are the HRM and HR zones still relevant and useful? While boring myself rigid on the turbo, watching my HR climb skyward as my temperature rises, am I still getting a good work out? Or should I junk technology and go on "feel"? Use the force Luke, I believe someone once said, but I don't think he was sat on a turbo at the time.

If I'm logging HR, speed, cadence and distance, over a set course or routine on the turbo and then repeating and seeing improvements (or not) is this still an effective system and could it be just as relevant, although maybe not as scientific, as unaffordable power meters?

Discuss....

Power meters provide for many benefits (too many to list here) but they are not a necessity, nor are they for everyone. Good (bad) training is good (bad) training no matter what you are using to record/measure it with.

The most important thing in training is applying the key principles of consistency; progressive overload through variability in the intensity, frequency and duration of effort; recovery; and specificity. If you don't get these things right or understand how to apply them, then a power meter isn't what you need, it's education or a good coach (or a dose of harden up).

But if you do understand how to execute these principles, then power meters are excellent tools for making sure you get instant, consistent and constant feedback as to whether the training is adhering to those principles and is beneficial, and what level of benefit you are getting.

It provides such information at a micro level (what am I doing right now), a mini level (what did I actually do today) and a macro level (what have done this season), in a way that no other tool can, which then provides a great feedback loop for ongoing training and development.

You can still apply these principles without a power meter. Other than consistency, by far the most important thing when training is intensity of effort, and there are several ways to monitor that, being power, HR and perceived exertion.

Fitness improvements are often subtle and not detectable via speed on the road especially (because of the nature of the power-speed relationship and variability of conditions) or the turbo (variability). Clearly getting a good idea of performance improvement can be done in other ways, such as described in this item:
http://www.bikeradar.com/fitness/articl ... ting-19175

Power meters are superior means of monitoring fitness. One cannot measure fitness with a HRM or via PE - they are indicators of intensity, not of fitness.

As to who should use power meters? My view is that anyone who is interested in improving their performance and wants to really nail their training, is perhaps interested in better understanding the how and why, or those that want to get the most from a coaching relationship. It has nothing to do, IMO/E, with the level of rider.

It's just an option we have to help us perform the best we can given the constraints we have in life and the physiological cards we were dealt with at birth.

Horta

Thanks for all the replys, made for some interesting reading.

So power readings are the gold standard, but that doesn't make the other tools that are out there redundant. I know people bang on about if you're serious, then you must have one, but as a dad of 4, with a very limited income it's not an option, food and clothes come first, hi-tech cycling wizadry come a long way after!

Alex_Simmons/RST

Horta wrote:

Thanks for all the replys, made for some interesting reading.

So power readings are the gold standard, but that doesn't make the other tools that are out there redundant. I know people bang on about if you're serious, then you must have one, but as a dad of 4, with a very limited income it's not an option, food and clothes come first, hi-tech cycling wizadry come a long way after!

It sounds to me like you have your priorities right.

And importantly, stay safe out there

Team Banana Spokesman

I rented one for a bit.

it takes the P out of PE. so it confirmed to me what the power levels felt like.

i realized that when i wanted to do threshold workouts or sub-threshold "sweet spot" rides i would go too easy and then go too hard (vo2 max/L5) depending on the conditions. (headwind/hill=L5, tailwind/descent=L3).

also, I thought my threshold level (1hour effort) was a lot higher so I would be doing a lot of L5 stuff and TTs would be a mix of threshold L4 stuff and sprints. :shock: should have just been doing high L4 steadily. i improved TT times by pacing using a PM.

so good for pacing and knowing your limits. how can you push boundaries in training if the boundaries are not visible in the first place??

they take the guesswork out of training but helped my guesswork also improve. I can guess which level im riding at now. before I rented one I couldnt.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Power calibrates PE, PE modulates power - Charles Howe.

Infamous

More 3rd cats have Power meters than 1st cats.

Pokerface

a_n_t wrote:

Pokerface wrote:

On the road, you can't control weather conditions, etc, so you need more than just a stopwatch to assess performances.

dont supose you have any power data from saturdays 10 do you? As we did the same time almost?

Alas - no. Can't afford a powertap Zipp Disc wheel! But I might ride one of my club events this year with the PT wheel to see what the numbers say.


Any idea when/where the full list of results will be posted? On CTT at some point I take it....

Tom Butcher

Well there are about ten times as many third cats so that's not that surprising.

Tom Butcher

Er- that was meant as a reply to Infamous

Infamous

Tom Butcher wrote:

Well there are about ten times as many third cats so that's not that surprising.

You'd think with all those power meters they'd be 1st cats by now.

chrisw12

Why?

Apparently there'e this new subject on the streets called genetics, which plays a big part.

Alex_Simmons/RST

A Powertap is a tool, not a bolt on motor - Chris Mayhew

Pokerface

Infamous wrote:

Tom Butcher wrote:

Well there are about ten times as many third cats so that's not that surprising.

You'd think with all those power meters they'd be 1st cats by now.

They were all stuck as 4th cats until they got power meters. You can't train a donkey to be a thoroughbred racehorse. But you can make it run faster.

dennisn

Pokerface wrote:

oldwelshman wrote:

Pokerface wrote:

oldwelshman wrote:

chrisw12 wrote:

Power meters costing more than a bike, you're having a larf, go to the buying advice forum, people spend more on brakes. '...Which £2000 bike shall I buy!!,,,', no buy a £1300 bike, and buy a powertap is a much better alternative imho


To answer your question though, how serious. At the bottom end I'm investing a lot of time in this sport, why waste that time and not take it seriously.

Also, trust me, you'll want one when your mate buys one and then starts beating you, serious or not.

Why would buying a power meter make his mate beat him?
You can buy a power meter ok but if you dont ride and train how will it make you faster, its your legs that make you faster not a power meter. I don't recall my bike going faster with a powertap ?

Yeah, but you're old and stuck in your ways.

Any power measurement system will help train those glorious legs of yours more efficiently. There's a reason why most pro and national teams use them to improve their riders.

It gives you specific targets to work towards.

Yes - you can train without one. But do it right and you can train BETTER with one. There is no possible way you can train to targets if you don't know what your targets are - and power measurement gives you that.

But you still need the engine.

Old but not stuck in ways I have trained using hr and also with power tap.
If everything was done on data then how come Cavandish was not selected for the accademy years ago as his power measurements were not seen as good enough compared to other riders ?
My targets are events not to reach a certain power output, basically a watch is also a very good training tool, if I do 200m, 750m or pursuit faster than before I guess my power has increased ?
You can also ride and train to schedules on the track with respect to laptimes.
As I said it is a personal thing and more than one way to skin a cat.
I wonder what the pros did before power meters then ? :?

Pros are better today because of power measurement.

In playing devils advocate I would ask if that's your opinion or you have some sort of proof other than power meter advertisements and the old saying "well, everybody knows..."? Not all of us know this for some indisputable fact, must have, type of thing.
People have been sucked into buying all kinds of exercise equipment that has claimed to be the best thing ever AND remove inches of fat. Yet millions buy them and remain fat.
I find it hard to believe that people fall for stuff like that(I'll admit I have). What I find harder to believe is that cyclist's will spend thousands loading their bikes up on power meters, GPS's, computers, etc. and then write in asking whether they should buy a lighter set of skewers. But I digress. For me, and maybe a few others, seeing something come on the market claiming to be the best yet(which is just about everything) simply runs up a big red flag in my mind.

Pokerface

dennisn wrote:

In playing devils advocate I would ask if that's your opinion or you have some sort of proof other than power meter advertisements and the old saying "well, everybody knows..."? Not all of us know this for some indisputable fact, must have, type of thing.
People have been sucked into buying all kinds of exercise equipment that has claimed to be the best thing ever AND remove inches of fat. Yet millions buy them and remain fat.
I find it hard to believe that people fall for stuff like that(I'll admit I have). What I find harder to believe is that cyclist's will spend thousands loading their bikes up on power meters, GPS's, computers, etc. and then write in asking whether they should buy a lighter set of skewers. But I digress. For me, and maybe a few others, seeing something come on the market claiming to be the best yet(which is just about everything) simply runs up a big red flag in my mind.

I don't think pro riders/teams, national team riders, etc - would ALL fall for the same hokum. They wouldn't be in the habit of ALL loading their bikes down with equipment and using technology (some for the past several years) if it didn't work or provide some sort of benefit.

Power measurement is growing. Not a 'here today, gone tomoro' fad. None of them claim to be the 'best yet'. I don't see ads for their products. I don't see informercials for them on TV. What I DO see is a lot of really good riders with them on their bikes.

Team Banana Spokesman

arguing against hving a powermeter is like going into a gym and telling an elite-weightlifter that he shouldn't look at the numbers on the weights and instead just choose random weights which 'feel' like the right amount he wants to lift for that session.

he would probably get stronger from the blind lifting but being able to measure his progress through the numbers and being able to control what he lifts to cause different adaptations is much more efficient training.

also, it is debatable weather or not pro riders are stronger these days than 20/30 yrs ago through use of a PM. other factors, like nutrition and recovery play a massive part these days. look at brailford's 'marginal gains' theory for example.

there is no doubt that if merckx had a PM and all the knowledge of how to use it that he could have got to his peak quicker through better training. weather or not he would have been an even better rider is debatable because use of a PM to do proper training probably wont increase your overall upper limit.

dennisn

Pokerface wrote:

dennisn wrote:

In playing devils advocate I would ask if that's your opinion or you have some sort of proof other than power meter advertisements and the old saying "well, everybody knows..."? Not all of us know this for some indisputable fact, must have, type of thing.
People have been sucked into buying all kinds of exercise equipment that has claimed to be the best thing ever AND remove inches of fat. Yet millions buy them and remain fat.
I find it hard to believe that people fall for stuff like that(I'll admit I have). What I find harder to believe is that cyclist's will spend thousands loading their bikes up on power meters, GPS's, computers, etc. and then write in asking whether they should buy a lighter set of skewers. But I digress. For me, and maybe a few others, seeing something come on the market claiming to be the best yet(which is just about everything) simply runs up a big red flag in my mind.

I don't think pro riders/teams, national team riders, etc - would ALL fall for the same hokum. They wouldn't be in the habit of ALL loading their bikes down with equipment and using technology (some for the past several years) if it didn't work or provide some sort of benefit.

Power measurement is growing. Not a 'here today, gone tomoro' fad. None of them claim to be the 'best yet'. I don't see ads for their products. I don't see informercials for them on TV. What I DO see is a lot of really good riders with them on their bikes.

But, aren't PRO riders out there to sell product almost as much as race? Maybe they are out there to sell product MORE than race. These guys use frames, components, clothing, and wheels because they are paid to use them, not so much because they are any better than anything another rider uses. Anyone with enough money can have a pro team or pro rider use their product, or at least claim to use their product. If someone wanted a pro team to use their lugged steel bikes all they would need to do is come up with enough money and bingo Rob Roll is talking "we haven't seen this in years, what a refreshing change from the carbon hoards".

Team Banana Spokesman

no.

AFAIK most teams have no PM sponsor and they buy them in themselves. there are some riders who do not use them or only use them in training occasionally.

redddraggon

Dennis, it is a scientific fact that Power is the best method training assuming you know what you are doing or you have a coach that does. That's not to say other stuff won't work, it just won't be as efficient.

Just like in my field of work we've just had to spend £6000 on a nanovoltmeter and current source to do electrical testing on my material. I could use other cheaper equipment, but I wouldn't get the "best" results.