Optimising Fitness During Longish Commute

meanredspider

freehub wrote:

I catch and pass all cyclists I come across also. Does not make me fast though. What exactly is your current job? If they're none cyclists or just use a bike now and again, the reason they tell you that you should be able to is because they have no idea, they think cause 20mph is slow in a car it must be on a bike, and they reckon they do 20mph when they don't. It's not easy keeping 20mph on any terrain really.

Just cause someone has a Madone and as climbed Mt Ventoux does not make him special, I know people with Madones who have climbed Ventoux more than once.

My colleagues are the sort of people that do the "Strathpuffer" (endurance mountain bike race) and "Maggies Monster Bike and Hike" (30 miles on a Bike and 42 miles on foot - effectively running - in around 11 hours). The Highlands, by its very nature, attracts the type of folk who love endurance and ultra-endurance events. Understand what you're saying about the Madone cyclist but he came 32nd in a 500 entry Duathlon - possibly not that remarkable except that he's 50, nearly lost his foot in a serious accident 3 years ago and nearly lost his other foot at 18 - he puts himself through agony doing the running in these things yet achieves amazing results. What he loses on foot he makes up for on the bike and IIRC he "won" the cycling leg of the race.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that these guys know their stuff.

Thanks for the advice. I'll stick at it. I'm lucky in that I rarely suffer injuries and not often unwell. I know when to lay off and I know that recovery is vital. I'm going to try attacking the hills - just hope this snow they're promising stays off. Even with the Ice Spikers, I can't get the MTB to go far in 6" of fresh snow.

andy162

Apologies in advance for the thread hijack...

Freehub/Will....a guy comes on asking for advise & you essentially call him a liar. Keep your hair on FFS!

Just because you've had a wee dabble at racing now does not make you the Ultimate Oracle of all Cycling Knowledge. Some people don't need to train/ride much & can churn out the results, some train/ride like idiots & are always gonna be shite...that's the way it is.

Stop being a dick.

freehub

andy162 wrote:

Freehub/Will....a guy comes on asking for advise & you essentially call him a liar. Keep your hair on FFS!

.

Wrong.

meanredspider

Guys - please don't fall out over this. I'm still perplexed about the "excitement" over the speed (maybe I should sell the race car and buy a race bike ) but I honestly really don't mind what people think about it. I'm only commuting so I have nothing to prove to anybody except myself. I'm really grateful for the pointers and info that'll help me get better.

rokkala

meanredspider wrote:

Guys - please don't fall out over this. I'm still perplexed about the "excitement" over the speed (maybe I should sell the race car and buy a race bike ) but I honestly really don't mind what people think about it. I'm only commuting so I have nothing to prove to anybody except myself. I'm really grateful for the pointers and info that'll help me get better.

Post a map of the route you take, that might help people understand?

Anonymous

The reason there is excitement is that there is untapped road racing magic here!

Please, race!

meanredspider

Rokkala wrote:

Post a map of the route you take, that might help people understand?

I hope this works. It's not exactly the route as I couldn't get Google to do the riding route. The Sustrans site covers some of the route

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=raigmore&daddr=A9+to:Unknown+road+to:Unknown+road+to:A832+to:Unknown+road+to:Unknown+road+to:57.593367,-4.345093&geocode=Ff37bAMdbBDA_ymT_OXDL3GPSDE6VsT8o3Hm6A%3BFYqJbQMd1bO-_w%3BFRawbQMd0nS-_w%3BFf7bbQMdhhG-_w%3BFSYKbgMdtiC-_w%3BFb6JbgMdNEq-_w%3BFfiubgMdH8u9_w%3B&gl=uk&hl=en&mra=dme&mrcr=0&mrsp=7&sz=12&via=1,2,3,4,5,6&sll=57.565021,-4.312477&sspn=0.093174,0.307274&ie=UTF8&ll=57.541812,-4.295311&spn=0.093233,0.307274&z=12

freehub

www.bikehike.co.uk

Draw the route.

meanredspider

freehub wrote:

www.bikehike.co.uk

Draw the route.

Done, sir!

http://www.alfa.me.uk/images/bikeroute.jpg

Didn't seem to be able to save the route without getting agreement of site owner - but it's here as a screengrab with elevation.

amaferanga

Do you average 19mph both ways or just on your way into work? Its by no means flat, but it looks to me that the ascent/descent figure suggests something hillier than your route actually is (I cycled pretty much exactly you route during my LEJOG last year and I don't remember thinking it was hilly - certainly no big hills, but rolling).

With that ascent/descent figure I was thinking it was something more like my old commute which if you averaged 19mph over you'd be doing 2mph faster than I ever managed.

sheffsimon

amaferanga wrote:

Do you average 19mph both ways or just on your way into work? Its by no means flat, but it looks to me that the ascent/descent figure suggests something hillier than your route actually is (I cycled pretty much exactly you route during my LEJOG last year and I don't remember thinking it was hilly - certainly no big hills, but rolling).

With that ascent/descent figure I was thinking it was something more like my old commute which if you averaged 19mph over you'd be doing 2mph faster than I ever managed.

Just looking at your old commute - I train a lot on those roads, especially Mayfield Valley, Roper Hill, hill intervals and suchlike, cos I live next to Bingham Park. Nice way to get to work.

nasahapley

freehub wrote:

andy162 wrote:

Freehub/Will....a guy comes on asking for advise & you essentially call him a liar. Keep your hair on FFS!

.

Wrong.

Have to say that if you didn't mean it like that, it's exactly how it came across to me too, but this makes it clear I've misunderstood you.

I've had a look at a training loop I was doing a bit last year - bikehike says a bit over 21 miles with a tad over 2000ft of climbing (hilly, then), and I was doing that in 1.04-1.10, so that means that either

(a) I'm some kind of elite cycling superman without knowing it,
(b) I'm not that good, but doing lots of hilly rides of about an hour at high intensity made me particularly good at doing high-intensity hour long hilly rides (funny that), or
(c) I'm making it all up/it was just a dream.

I do think that if you've done some other kind of intense cv-based sport then you can get up to a decent pace on a bike pretty quickly; I came into cycling from rowing and could do 60-70 mile rides flattish rides at 18-20mph straight off. Hills took a bit longer to sort out but I figured them out in the end. I'm not trying to say I'm something special 'cause I'm not - lots of my rowing mates who only go out on their bikes once a fortnight or so can do exactly the same or better (not trying to say that rowers are ace either, I know a lot of runners who a very handy on bikes too). Obviously if you want to be as good as you possibly can be on a bike then do more on the bike, but it's perfectly possible to be very good on a bike without actually cycling that much at all; so long as you've got a decent cv system and a bit of grit then you're not going to be slow!

I hope I'm not winding anyone up here, and I'm not saying that cycling is 'easy', I just think MRS has got a bit of unwarranted stick here.

meanredspider

amaferanga wrote:

Do you average 19mph both ways or just on your way into work? Its by no means flat, but it looks to me that the ascent/descent figure suggests something hillier than your route actually is (I cycled pretty much exactly you route during my LEJOG last year and I don't remember thinking it was hilly - certainly no big hills, but rolling).

With that ascent/descent figure I was thinking it was something more like my old commute which if you averaged 19mph over you'd be doing 2mph faster than I ever managed.

I'm not qualified to comment on what counts as hilly or rolling. I'm about 1mph slower on the way home I guess. In simple terms, a 1000ft of ascent/decent over 15 miles is just that. Clearly it's not as simple as that but I can't intuitively say why (other than there's recovery between the climbs). Your Le Jog experience will depend on where you've been before. Take an East Anglian (where I'm from) cyclist and stick them in this environment and they'd tell you it's hilly. If you live in the Alps, it's undulating. Mind you, in terms of speed, it's a bit swings and roundabouts - up the steeper bits I might average say 8-10mph but hit nearly 40mph on the way down (quicker if it weren't for the blind corners on singletrack roads).

Sorry - don't seem to be able to view your commute.

Anyhow - if it explains some of my apparent speed, that's a good thing. I wasn't hoping for or expecting a speed debate but rather some training advice.

Anonymous

Jesus H! If you can average 19 on your way to work over that then you need to really start racing, you'll crush everyone!

The other way, not so much...

meanredspider

NapoleonD wrote:

Jesus H! If you can average 19 on your way to work over that then you need to really start racing, you'll crush everyone!

The other way, not so much...

What speed would your average road cyclist be doing the journeys (into work is the net decent BTW)?

My goal is to average the round trip in 20mph. I thought it was realistic until I logged onto here. I was planning to change my route home slightly to take in Mt Eagle (highest point on the Black Isle) which has a relatively nasty ascent and Drumsmittal which has a good climb too to improve my climbing ability as I think this is where I lose most time.

huuregeil

@nasahapley
Well said!

@meanredspider
Ignore the negatives here. Ride your bike, enjoy it, apply sound training principles and see what that translates to! There is no such thing as "should" with regards to time/speed, only "can" and "want". If your goal is to ride that route at 20mph average, then set out to achieve it.

Anonymous

So that 19mph is going the descent way? If so, it makes more sense.

I'm not being negative, I'm genuinely impressed.

meanredspider

Thanks for the support folks. I'm pretty thick-skinned just more perplexed than anything. I feel a bit like a kid coming onto a car forum claiming his Nova can do 150mph from some of the comments.

I'm pretty determined - I didn't see too many cyclist out when it was between -7C & -9C and I'd bought ice spikers just to be able to do the journey day-in and day-out with the option of a nice warm car on the drive. Frankly, there probably aren't too many folk who have done 400 miles in a month on ice spikers in this country. I'll stick with my goal

meanredspider

NapoleonD wrote:

So that 19mph is going the descent way? If so, it makes more sense.

I'm not being negative, I'm genuinely impressed.

Yes - and about 17.5mph the uphill way (its +/- 100m difference). When I posted the original speed, I had genuinely expected it to be run-of-the-mill (which maybe it is) so not specific. I really only want tips on getting better (which I've had, thanks, folks) so posted my broad performance. Had expected more regarding the HR hence more details. Shows how little I know about the sport. Two pedals, two wheels and some handlebars...

meanredspider

amaferanga wrote:

(I cycled pretty much exactly you route during my LEJOG last year and I don't remember thinking it was hilly - certainly no big hills, but rolling)..

Was thinking about this - unless you came exactly my route, it will have appeared much more rolling. The route of the A9, for instance, is much more level. If I was braver in the traffic, I could avoid the worst parts of my ride (I'll try it during the summer hols). A detour for me of just a few hundred metres again to the East and the route becomes much more hilly still with a 350ft peak before plunging back down to sea level again before heading back up to the 750ft peak in 4 miles. That's the joy of the Highlands

freehub

meanredspider wrote:

NapoleonD wrote:

So that 19mph is going the descent way? If so, it makes more sense.

I'm not being negative, I'm genuinely impressed.

Yes - and about 17.5mph the uphill way (its +/- 100m difference). When I posted the original speed, I had genuinely expected it to be run-of-the-mill (which maybe it is) so not specific. I really only want tips on getting better (which I've had, thanks, folks) so posted my broad performance. Had expected more regarding the HR hence more details. Shows how little I know about the sport. Two pedals, two wheels and some handlebars...

See now you clarify it, what you do sounds perfectly reasonable.

You have to make sure stuff makes sense on these forums, or what you say and what anyone else says is just not true, some people pull figures/ideas out of thin air on here

meanredspider

freehub wrote:

See now you clarify it, what you do sounds perfectly reasonable.

You have to make sure stuff makes sense on these forums, or what you say and what anyone else says is just not true, some people pull figures/ideas out of thin air on here

Cool. I had no idea 1 mph made so much difference. Because each week I've been adding something like 0.5mph to my speed I'm fully expecting to hit 19mph avg home at some point (clearly not a linear progression). Dumping the winter gear should help.

Team Banana Spokesman

ok, so your goal is to get faster on your commute?

prctice makes perfect - just doing the commute itself will cause your body to do the necessary pyhsiological adaptations required to handle the challenges of the route better. look at track cyclists: they wont be doing long 5 hour rides with hills. they will be training on the track in their specific events.

how long does your commute take?

if the total time riding is less than 1:30, you cn probably do it every day flat-out assuming you eat well. beyond this point you will feel fatigued a bit every day which can add up to something bigger over a week/month. so go hard and assess fatigue as you go. increase protein intake slightly if this is a shock to your system.

also, for losing weight, this is the best logical approach: fast as possible for the time you have.

dont forget a good warmup though. going hard straight away can bring on injuries = no riding!

Team Banana Spokesman

meanredspider wrote:

each week I've been adding something like 0.5mph to my speed I'm fully expecting to hit 19mph avg home at some point (clearly not a linear progression).

far from linear. going from 10mph to 20mph uses 4 times the energy, going from 10mph to 30mph uses 9 times the energy, going from 10mph to 40mph uses 16 times the energy, etc... see the pattern?

not even pro riders can hit 19mph avg for a training ride most times.

amaferanga

meanredspider wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

(I cycled pretty much exactly you route during my LEJOG last year and I don't remember thinking it was hilly - certainly no big hills, but rolling)..

Was thinking about this - unless you came exactly my route, it will have appeared much more rolling. The route of the A9, for instance, is much more level. If I was braver in the traffic, I could avoid the worst parts of my ride (I'll try it during the summer hols). A detour for me of just a few hundred metres again to the East and the route becomes much more hilly still with a 350ft peak before plunging back down to sea level again before heading back up to the 750ft peak in 4 miles. That's the joy of the Highlands

I skipped the A9 after the bridge and joined it again just after Culbokie (then left it again asap). I went up the B9161 to Munlochy, but I'd imagine the roads would have been pretty similar to yours, if not identical.

I can say for sure though that I didn't average 19mph on them as it was near the start of my fifth successive day of riding 300km

meanredspider

amaferanga wrote:

I can say for sure though that I didn't average 19mph on them as it was near the start of my fifth successive day of riding 300km

You must have come pretty close to my route though I'm surprised you don't remember hills - the run out of Culbokie to the Cromarty Bridge is one of the steepest, straightest (so fastest) hills in the area. It will have been a delight during a ride of that length. You'll have dropped 750ft in 2 miles. You could probably have done the whole run without touching the pedals 8)

meanredspider

Team Banana Spokesman wrote:

... see the pattern?
.

Absolutely - same formula applies to cars.

Thanks for the guidance. Takes me around 50 mins each way. I did all 5 days a couple of weeks back and the last day was tough - especially with 35mph winds.

huuregeil

Team Banana Spokesman wrote:

look at track cyclists: they wont be doing long 5 hour rides with hills. they will be training on the track in their specific events.

Bad analogy. I think you'll find that track cyclists spend significant time in the gym, doing shorter efforts, and focusing on top-end speed, before pulling it all together for a specific event.

The same applies here: more efficient gains could probably be made by doing interval type training and focusing on specific aspects of the ride.

chrisw12

freehub wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

NapoleonD wrote:

So that 19mph is going the descent way? If so, it makes more sense.

I'm not being negative, I'm genuinely impressed.

Yes - and about 17.5mph the uphill way (its +/- 100m difference). When I posted the original speed, I had genuinely expected it to be run-of-the-mill (which maybe it is) so not specific. I really only want tips on getting better (which I've had, thanks, folks) so posted my broad performance. Had expected more regarding the HR hence more details. Shows how little I know about the sport. Two pedals, two wheels and some handlebars...

See now you clarify it, what you do sounds perfectly reasonable.

You have to make sure stuff makes sense on these forums, or what you say and what anyone else says is just not true, some people pull figures/ideas out of thin air on here

So true, We're pretty anal on here with regards to numbers (and I'm the worst) so when someone posts something with numbers that just don't add up, people know there's something wrong. Have a look at Shavedleggs thread on his Bath London attempt for a good example.

meanredspider

chrisw12 wrote:

So true, We're pretty anal on here with regards to numbers (and I'm the worst) so when someone posts something with numbers that just don't add up, people know there's something wrong. Have a look at Shavedleggs thread on his Bath London attempt for a good example.

Cool - edited for accuracy

meanredspider wrote:

Thanks for the guidance. Takes me around 49 mins one way and 52 mins the other way. I did all 5 days two weeks back and the last day was tough - especially with 34.7mph westerly winds.