Are sportifs wrong?

MrRex

As a cyclist who has been riding for many years, I participated in my first official sportif yesterday. Although it was great to see so many cyclists, there were many bad things on show too.

Many of the riders didn't have the appropriate knowledge to ride in large groups and rode in an unpredictable manner, pulling out at the wrong time, sprinting from weird positions etc.

Etiquette was poor....sitting on wheels for for too long without working, then sprinting through to the front taking 10 riders with them; riding 4 abreast on narrow roads....didn't endear themselves to motorists; swerving from pot holes at the last moment without pointing them out.....and maybe the worst......riding with jackets flapping wide open.

The list could go on. Don't get me wrong, I'm supportive of as many guys n girls riding their bikes......the club scene isnt as welcoming as it could be so there are now fewer ways to learn bike craft, but riders and organisers have a responsibility to ensure that they can ride in a manner which endears them to their fellow riders and other road users.

Wish it could be enforced but every rider should have to complete 1 Sunday run with a club, probably with a few moany old gits in the group, who will help teach the basics!

TomBombadil

Oh dear,

These comments suggest an idea that there is a perfect way to ride on the bike. I have ridden many club runs and sportives - the people that I find the most likely to put any riders off are those that have no tolerance of other riders. Some people enjoy riding with me some do not.

Ask your self how many riders had accidents? Ask - how many riders enjoyed the day? Regarding only one of your comments - Pointing out obstacles is only useful if you know the riders and they do it absolutely every time. One forgotten point and it's spells disaster. I never point -occasionally I'll call if a pot hole looks absolutely dangerous - those that know me know this.

There is no perfect riding style - I feel that many of the comments smack of the club riding Gestapo. If you find it hard to be tolerant and it upsets you seeing people who don't follow your own rules - stick to riding with your club and the clique where everyone knows your own riding style and enjoys hearing your observances.

The fantastic fun of a sportive as there are all types of riders - all are welcome! Some will 'race' some will compete against themselves. Some ride in well organised club groups - others just do their best. And for one special day you can push the road rules a little ( just as all drivers do all the time) and most drivers will understand that there is an event on.

Relax - enjoy the ride and if you prefer your club run, stick to it.

Good will and cycling - Tom

bigpikle

chicken and egg isnt it...

Take myself. No real group riding experience yet I want to do some group rides, so how do I learn? Some of the things you mention should be common sense or basic road safety of course, but how do people learn without going through the learning process of joining group rides?

Perhaps organisers should send out some guidelines on group riding etiquette and technique, or run a briefing at the start, but as its just that, etiquette, its not compulsory anyway is it.

I have just joined my local club with the aim of learning in all areas of cycling including group riding etc, but as many cyclists only ride solo most of the time and have no desire to join a club, there are limited opportunities to learn this stuff other than forums or magazines etc.

Kléber

Sportifs are fun rides and as such they attract lots of newcomers. Yes people are making all sorts of mistakes, whether swerving or changing direction at random but that's the price you pay for an open ride. It's a sign that so many people have taken up cycling that lots of them still haven't learned to ride smoothly.

As for pointing out potholes, why not do this all the time? It costs you nothing and might save others from a puncture, crash or broken wheel. It's just polite to point!

Finally join a club. Many seem unsure about this but once they do, they don't look back. It's just the chance to ride with others, you will learn more and become a better ride for it. I can't think of a case of a rider joining a club and becoming a worse rider or getting less from their time on the bike.

what brakes

Like its said before Arnt sportives for fun???? and to get people into cycling?

I agree on some points like riding 4 abreast. Riding 1 abreast annoyes some motorists!

But what the hells having a jacket open gotta do with anything? Im sorry but if someone said i couldnt have my jacket open they would be politly told where they can shove it... that has to be the most stupid rule/comment ive heard! Things like that will stop future generation joining clubs! As for pot holes you dont always see them till the last minute!

owenlars

I think I understand the point made here and if you are riding in a group at speed than the correct etiquette (pothole spotting, no wheel overlapping, calling cars etc) is more than politeness, it is a matter of group safety. Anyone who doesn't understand that shouldn't be riding in a group until they do.

If you are riding by yourself than anyone catching you up has to give you right of way and behave accordingly as they overtake.

Anyone who rides 4 abreast on the road is taking the p*ss in my opinion.

South Bound

Sportifs are a great way for people to learn this stuff. Clubs do not always cater for the needs of all new riders, even if there is a club nearby. Have only ridden a couple, but I learned a lot and I am sure one of them sent out an 'etiquette' brief beforehand.

Def a chicken and egg thing though, got to ride in a group to learn how to ride in a group.

JohnnyAllez

TomBombadil wrote:

Oh dear,

These comments suggest an idea that there is a perfect way to ride on the bike. I have ridden many club runs and sportives - the people that I find the most likely to put any riders off are those that have no tolerance of other riders. Some people enjoy riding with me some do not.

Ask your self how many riders had accidents? Ask - how many riders enjoyed the day? Regarding only one of your comments - Pointing out obstacles is only useful if you know the riders and they do it absolutely every time. One forgotten point and it's spells disaster. I never point -occasionally I'll call if a pot hole looks absolutely dangerous - those that know me know this.

There is no perfect riding style - I feel that many of the comments smack of the club riding Gestapo. If you find it hard to be tolerant and it upsets you seeing people who don't follow your own rules - stick to riding with your club and the clique where everyone knows your own riding style and enjoys hearing your observances.

The fantastic fun of a sportive as there are all types of riders - all are welcome! Some will 'race' some will compete against themselves. Some ride in well organised club groups - others just do their best. And for one special day you can push the road rules a little ( just as all drivers do all the time) and most drivers will understand that there is an event on.

Relax - enjoy the ride and if you prefer your club run, stick to it.

Good will and cycling - Tom

Spot on Tom

Kléber

Organisers have a role here, a leaflet could be given to newcomers to explain how to point out potholes and warning them not to move sideways without signalling etc. These are basic things but everyone has to learn at some point.

acidstrato

its a sportive, A BIT OF FUN so anyone i don't know or doesn't even speak to me that starts tagging my rear wheel and sapping me dry deserves to hit pot holes and have a bumpy ride*


*this is my own opinion, it only takes a little courtesy to say 'hello, mind if i ride with you?' in which case I will be more than happy to be courteous back to point out any large pot holes. dont get me wrong though I don't wish injury or punctures on anyone

riding 4 abreast isn't even that bad depending on the road itself

but open jackets???? how does that affect your experience in anyway?

Gypsum_Fantastic

If the roadie fashionistas don't like flapping jackets then they're going to sh1t a brick when I rock up to a sportif I've entered in my baggy trail trousers and rucksack

The point about riding 4 abreast is fair enough but the rest of the post smacks of the kind of elitist roadie clap-trap that is enough to put even the most comitted beginner off joining in which, after all, is the point of a sportif.

I may be new to road riding but I know that it's sensible to adjust your riding style to the condition of the road and that includes a road full of novice cyclists, none of us were born on a bike after all. My advice would be to give us plenty of room and anticipate that we're going to make mistakes like swerving and failing to point out hazards and if that is getting you down then there's always the next hill you can overtake us on.

Edit: Why is the emphasis always on the beginners? Surely as experienced cyclists you can quit bitching long enough to have a friendly word with us if our riding isn't up to scratch. I'm not going to give you a gobful if you're polite and explain what I'm doing wrong and I generally wont need to be told again.

Peace

Monkeypump

Should I be angry or despairing after reading your post, Mr Rex? I'm not sure you could be any more condescending!

With this sort of ingrained intolerance of 'novice' cyclists (who are probably enjoying the day far more for not worrying about the horrors of open jackets), is it a wonder that poeple are reluctant to join clubs?

Well done, Mr Rex, for reinforcing our perceptions of cycle club members.

Kléber

Monkeypump wrote:

Well done, Mr Rex, for reinforcing our perceptions of cycle club members.

Perceptions can be wrong, particularly from a distance or via an internet forum. Clubs come in all shapes and sizes, find the right one for you and you won't look back.

ex-pat scot

Reluctantly I comment:

there is a world of difference between an inexperienced and experienced bunch rider.
You can only become an experienced bunch rider by riding with a group - and the only chance of doing this is with a local club / chain gang. Until now, when the Sportif has entered the equation.
A key function of the club run is in educating inexperienced riders in etiquette and safety.
For me, the emphasis is very clearly on safety:
- wheel overlap
-sudden veering
-sudden braking
-swerving around / not pointing out potholes, obstacles in the road etc.
- calling out cars approaching.
- no more than 2 abreast, where conditions allow

A pack needs a certain amount of trust to operate effectively- and therefore needs to be able to rely on the individual riders understanding and adhering to the above points. Trust is key

Etiquette areas are "nice to have" points such as:
- try and fart when you're at the back of the pack, or at least downwind of most of the riders
- blow your nose away from the main pack
- ditto spitting, if you feel you must
- if you feel like testing the group out on a climb, then ease up at the top to allow regrouping
- full mudguards in sh1TTY weather
- take your turn at the front; peel off carefully

etc.

It would be ideal if every road cyclist "learned the craft" through a club apprenticeship, but it's not going to happen.
Every road cyclist does have to learn the craft though, and a gentle word of helpful advice would go a long way in enlightening and enthusing these new riders. You can spot them a mile off, making simple and amusing errors (such as the "flapping jackets" - their (wind resistance) loss, not yours!). It's up to us to nurture this enthusiasm, not to quash it.

There is a huge new market of roadies- keen but inexperienced, and not introduced through the traditional route of clubs - and we need to engage these people through the Sportif if this is the only group situation in which they find themselves. Clubs- particularly introspective traditional ones- can be very intimidating and unwelcoming of new enthusiasts. Many choose not to go down this elitist path to road cycling.

sampras38

MrRex wrote:

As a cyclist who has been riding for many years, I participated in my first official sportif yesterday. Although it was great to see so many cyclists, there were many bad things on show too.

Many of the riders didn't have the appropriate knowledge to ride in large groups and rode in an unpredictable manner, pulling out at the wrong time, sprinting from weird positions etc.

Etiquette was poor....sitting on wheels for for too long without working, then sprinting through to the front taking 10 riders with them; riding 4 abreast on narrow roads....didn't endear themselves to motorists; swerving from pot holes at the last moment without pointing them out.....and maybe the worst......riding with jackets flapping wide open.

The list could go on. Don't get me wrong, I'm supportive of as many guys n girls riding their bikes......the club scene isnt as welcoming as it could be so there are now fewer ways to learn bike craft, but riders and organisers have a responsibility to ensure that they can ride in a manner which endears them to their fellow riders and other road users.

Wish it could be enforced but every rider should have to complete 1 Sunday run with a club, probably with a few moany old gits in the group, who will help teach the basics!

I have a questiion

If you're an experienced rider and this is your first sportive, what made you enter?

Pokerface

The only thing wrong with spotives.... is paying £25 to ride on an open, public road.

I do it every day. For free.

Heckler1974

Okay I can partly understand having a moan about dangerous behaviour in a group, much of which I suggest is down to inexperience of group riding rather than malicious intent and I would suggest trying the London to Brighton one year if you really want to see dangerous behaviour. Buuut, what's with the rant about jackets being open, is this another one of these 'OMG that rider has black socks' or 'OMG Shimano on an Italian bike' elitist roady viewpoints that somehow asthetics actually mean something?

Disappointing if that is a majority viewpoint, cycling is a broad church and the only way to diffuse the lycra lout sterotype of hard core roadies is to be more open and friendly,not all cyclists want to join a club, but if we point out obvious howlers when out on a sportif/sportive in a friendly way then everyone wins.

The only thing wrong with spotives.... is paying £25 to ride on an open, public road.

I do it every day. For free.

+1 to this, however I pay £25 to buy a bit of motivation, if I sign up for a ridiculous length event, I then get motivated to train for it.

Gypsum_Fantastic

ex-pat scot wrote:

It's up to us to nurture this enthusiasm, not to quash it.

Well said.

Pokerface

Heckler1974 wrote:

Okay I can partly understand having a moan about dangerous behaviour in a group, much of which I suggest is down to inexperience of group riding rather than malicious intent and I would suggest trying the London to Brighton one year if you really want to see dangerous behaviour. Buuut, what's with the rant about jackets being open, is this another one of these 'OMG that rider has black socks' or 'OMG Shimano on an Italian bike' elitist roady viewpoints that somehow asthetics actually mean something?

Disappointing if that is a majority viewpoint, cycling is a broad church and the only way to diffuse the lycra lout sterotype of hard core roadies is to be more open and friendly,not all cyclists want to join a club, but if we point out obvious howlers when out on a sportif/sportive in a friendly way then everyone wins.

The only thing wrong with spotives.... is paying £25 to ride on an open, public road.

I do it every day. For free.

+1 to this, however I pay £25 to buy a bit of motivation, if I sign up for a ridiculous length event, I then get motivated to train for it.

I rode about a dozen sportives my first year. And you are correct - it was motivating to get fit and ready, etc for them.

I just found the motivation elsewhere in year 2. And saved some cash.

If the prices were lower, then I'd be more inclined to sign up for a few more again.

Tom Butcher

As Kleber implies club members are no different to anyone else - you get friendly types, welcoming types, elitist types etc etc.

For myself if I ride a sportive I don't expect the participants will be as experienced as the lads out on the local chaingang or in a race. Having said that I haven't found the standard at all bad if you ride with a little common sense - as always if you don't know someone don't assume they are the world's best bike handler and ride accordingly. I might offer some advice occasionally - maybe if people are going through too fast - but even then probably not unless I was already chatting to the person because you don't want to offend.

I would though take issue with TomB's comments that he doesn't point out potholes - to me that's nothing to do with experience it's just good manners - who wants to wreck a rim or pop a tube because the person in front can't be bothered to take their hands off the bars or shout "hole" . Again if people don't realise that is the done thing fair enough - but once you know it if you don't want to do it then don't ride in groups because you are being inconsiderate and possibly dangerous.

bompington

Oh dear. Another "keep cycling for Real Cyclists" campaign.

what brakes

Heckler1974

Is black socks a no no then.... Bugger :oops: will have to buy some assos ones now!

brin

Surely a MORE experienced rider should accomodate for the misgivings of the not-so-experienced? When i done my 1st sportive 'experienced' riders coming up behind would shout 'coming through right' enabling me to take the appropriate action, and let them through. others would shout 'car front' or 'car rear' when on narrow lanes, 'clear' when approaching a junction etc. etc. seems to me you must of entered your particular ride anticipating everyone thinks like you do? oh, and we can't all join clubs, due to other commitments. chill out -'sportives' are for every type/age of cyclists.

ugo.santalucia

Like in any path of life, you will meet nice people and idiots.
In my experience the former outweigh the latter and that applies to sportives as well.
Of course, some live them as races, often not having the legs to support their bravery, but I don't recall particularly hairy moments due to reckless behaviour

fungus_the_muffin_man

ugo.santalucia wrote:

but I don't recall particularly hairy moments due to reckless behaviour

:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:

I was drafting a friend yesterday going full on 25-30 mph on a sportive, got to close, major wheel rub. Got sling shotted off, wrestled for control right across the road just managed to get control, stopped myself from hitting the tarmac just in time to see the car coming straight for me followed by a huge upper body swerve by me just managing to miss the oncoming car. I can still see the womens face of shear horror as she realised what was happening and started to hit the brakes.
I was one of those idiotic and reckless sportive riders who was riding outside of my limit and allowed my concentration to lapse causing the wheel rub. I hope the lady driver was ok after it.

vorsprung

I have never done a sportive
I have been a member of a couple of clubs and understand what group riding is about
I am not a particularly great group rider but I understand the basics

When I do audax rides with the larger fields, if there is a bunch I am very wary of it.
I do not expect the riders to steer straight, to not suddenly brake, to not veer.
Sometimes you get a double whammy of awful riding combined with moaning at people to take their turn.

One event I did that had a "audax" style route sheet but wasn't an audax had an additional problem. At every junction the group would stop in the middle of the road and have a discussion about which way to go.

I think the same would go for almost any mass event. You don't know the riders so how can you know if they will be well behaved? You don't so you must be extremely cautious

The event that had the best riding was the first day of PBP. After a couple of days though, even that field was pretty badly behaved

sampras38

what brakes wrote:

Heckler1974

Is black socks a no no then.... Bugger :oops: will have to buy some assos ones now!

If they are, someone should tell Mr Armstrong that..;-)

Heckler1974

sampras38 wrote:

If they are, someone should tell Mr Armstrong that..;-)

Indeed I think they were seen as the cycling fashion equivilent of bell-bottoms until he started wearing them.

My frame in lycra is frankly a much larger problem (in every sense) than my choice of sock colour anyhoo.

Philip Whiteman

MrRex's observations are perfectly justified though I would say it does tend to vary between sportive and sportive but on the whole the quality of riding can be very poor. On sportives, I have seen too many come to grief. In one instance I was forced off the road and into a fence by some prat who did not know how to ride in double file.

I disagree with a 'bit of fun' comment. It isn't if you end bloodied across the tarmac with a broken collar bone.

In the end I gave up with sportives and turned to audaxes where the riders are much more seasoned and experiened, though as I quickly identified, not adverse to fast riding at racing speeds.

chugger

If only clubs would move out of the 19th century into the 21st then Sportives would become much less common. I have done 1 sportive - the TdF London to Canterbury and it was ok. We did witness some terrible and often dangerous riding but thankfully it was a minority. The worst riders are usually those that are would-be "racers", can't hack a real race so throw their weight around in a sportive.
I think a lot of newbies enter a sportive because it's a lot less intimidating than a club [see 1st point] BUT there has to be etiquette when bunch riding for safety and politeness. On a club run about 3 years ago someone neglected to point out a pothole, the rider came off and wrecked his front wheel, fortunately he was a lot less confrontational than I would have been.
Many sportives have just become a licence to print money and and spread litter around the countryside. {waits for the flack]
We are a new club who encourage and teach new riders, all are welcome and there is zero arrogance and non would be tolerated. My advice would be to join one and if enough people do, the older traditional ones will be forced to change.

Leodhasach

Can't help but feel that the OP is trolling a bit.

I'm going to find out where he cycles and ride in front of him wearing a CLOAK!!

Mwahahahahaaaaaa