Paris - Nice Stage 7 **Spoiler**

dave_1

avoidingmyphd wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

avoidingmyphd wrote:

I think we're at cross purposes Dave.

The autobus is variously referred to as the stragglers, the tail end charlies, lanterne rouge etc, laughing group, so a crystal clear definition of the within time limit group is worth a post or two as your first post assume we all know what autobus means. As for complicating races, saving energy means riding to win as slowly as possible, how many forget that? Voeckler for one today.

I mean we agree on lots, and if we're disagreeing on anything here, it's a bit weird.

You are right (i like your 2nd formulation better btw) that saving energy means riding to win as slowly as possible. But that has nothing to do with the autobus. It's safe to say they have gone too slow! But some of the riders in the autobus (although not so many in the Paris Nice autobus, on my reading of Millar's comments) are there for strategic reasons, not because that's their level. They make cycling complicated, or at the very least they are a symptom of its complexity.

FrenchFighter, Voeckler did do a lot of work today (not just turns, but also his failed attack on the col d'eze), but I think the criticism of him is focussed simply on the fact that he went waaaay too soon in the final 2-man sprint and played into Moinard's hands. This was obvious from many sofas! [The cyclingnews report attributes this to him panicking about the chasers catching them, but I think that basically he made a mistake.]

Fair enough. It's semantics I suppose. What's your PhD in? I can't help but feel being in that zone mentally leads one to analyse and analyse, the way you write about it. Not a bad thing of course!

There is of course quite literally a real automatic bus at the back too referred to as the broom wagon usually. Voekler used energy in an attack he didn't need to do.. but as FF is saying, it's exciting seeing someone race like TV and whatsmore his aggressive attitude paid off massively at the 2004 TDF so even if it costs a lot of wins, he's become famous through the rewards of the high risk attacks.

moray_gub

frenchfighter wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

Voeckler for one today.

Great for the viewers though! He is probably one of the most loved riders.

Although he did come 2nd today which is a very good placing...are you suggesting he did too many turns at the front? Or that he tried to attack Moinard too many times? Certainly Moinard didn't look like he pulled much at all.

Both Voeckler and Moinard worked as hard as each other right up until the last 500m where TV looked round saw the approaching riders and panic set in and he launched a long one allowing AM to take his wheel and pass him before the line. Basically as far as TV is concerned a tactically inept piece of riding .

moray_gub

Kléber wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

I have a lot of time for Voeckler, his attacking style can be exciting but it also reduces his chances of winning a lot.

I think Voeckler still lives of his 2004 Tour and he forever seems to indulge in daft moves he often expends energy in the mountains trying to haul back the days early break on his own. He has had the odd win here and there but in the main its usualy doomed to failure. He would win a lot more if he had anything between his ears.

jerry3571

I think it was tough for Voeckler. He thought he was a bit stronger than Moinard, looked behind to see a load of riders opening up the sprint and so thought it's better to get a possible win or second place than 15th. If it was any dutch rider in the sprint who had attended the "Rolf Sorensen School of Cycling" they would have rather done a half a minute track stand before even thinking about leading out but I've seen many a sprint where the breakaway gets caught within a few hundred yards of the finish so the choices were not easy. Maybe Voeckler should have done a sprint at 70% and then hope Moinard comes around then kick again. It seems that anyone who opens up the sprint usually loses as Cadel Evans demonstrated on yesterday's (Sunday) stage of the Tirreno Adriatico.

-Jerry

iainf72

Moray Gub wrote:

I think Voeckler still lives of his 2004 Tour and he forever seems to indulge in daft moves he often expends energy in the mountains trying to haul back the days early break on his own. He has had the odd win here and there but in the main its usualy doomed to failure. He would win a lot more if he had anything between his ears.

Oh lord, I'm finding myself in complete agreement with MG again.

*yikes*

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

Moray Gub wrote:

I think Voeckler still lives of his 2004 Tour and he forever seems to indulge in daft moves he often expends energy in the mountains trying to haul back the days early break on his own. He has had the odd win here and there but in the main its usualy doomed to failure. He would win a lot more if he had anything between his ears.

Oh lord, I'm finding myself in complete agreement with MG again.

*yikes*

I agree MG, he can dine out for life on those days in yellow with not much since which is not fair considering the attention he gets, perhaps similar to Vasseur and Vincent Barteau
Voekler should have avoided the attack on Col D Eze unless his finish was on paper much worse than the other guy's

frenchfighter

Would you rather he was uber defensive like so many people and maybe won more or that he was brash, instinctive and exciting but didn't win so much?

I would give 10 riders for another Voeckler.

You have surely seen this video but I think it is many people's favourites. Burying himself, riding clean, finishing behind likely many epo'd riders.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUXL7XkVi7c

Tom Butcher

Agreed.

Also, while his attacking mentality might have cost him a victory in the sprint perhaps without it he wouldn't even have been there to contest it. Who knows. Whatever, he's a rider I'll remember long after the name Moinard has slipped my memory.

Kléber

That's a great video, watching him struggling all the way up the hill. Literally fuelled by brioche whilst others are tuned by Dr Ferrari.

Today there are tensions with the team regarding Voeckler. He has his way of doing things and it upsets others who might be on form or who want to work together, he's not a team player. He's a nice guy though, but you can't help wondering how much better he - and others like Fedrigo, Gautier, Rolland - could be if they were under better management. The whole team is focussed on the Tour for preidictable reasons but Chavanel wasted years of his career chasing the dreams in July only to realise he's better suited to one day classics.

mididoctors

Kléber wrote:

That's a great video, watching him struggling all the way up the hill. Literally fuelled by brioche whilst others are tuned by Dr Ferrari.

Today there are tensions with the team regarding Voeckler. He has his way of doing things and it upsets others who might be on form or who want to work together, he's not a team player. He's a nice guy though, but you can't help wondering how much better he - and others like Fedrigo, Gautier, Rolland - could be if they were under better management. The whole team is focussed on the Tour for preidictable reasons but Chavanel wasted years of his career chasing the dreams in July only to realise he's better suited to one day classics.

the guy rides above himself.. i thought he was going to fade a lot faster than he has.. the odd win and a pretty good PN.. could of done without the mechanical

moray_gub

frenchfighter wrote:

Would you rather he was uber defensive like so many people and maybe won more or that he was brash, instinctive and exciting but didn't win so much?

I would give 10 riders for another Voeckler.

You have surely seen this video but I think it is many people's favourites. Burying himself, riding clean, finishing behind likely many epo'd riders.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUXL7XkVi7c

Yea as i said living on his 2004 and why wouldnt he bury himself he is wearing the yellow jesrsey any rider would more than liklely do the same.



There is a difference between being exciiting and just plain stupid which Tommy is want to be at times. I remember a mountain stage in the Tour a year or so back a break 10 mins up the road and Tommy shoots out the peleton to catch them in a vain but you could say exciting chase and half hour later is caught and dropped by the peleton and you ask yourself wtf was that all about. He could still be exciting and use his brain a bit more and he would have more wins than he has now and you could update your sig a bit more so everybody is happy .

afx237vi

To be fair, though, he has virtually no chance of keeping up with the main GC riders when they start racing, so why not do what he does in the hope that they allow him to get away?

It's better for him to be a glorious failure and finish 150th than be a sensible rider who does nothing and finishes 18th. Voeckler may race stupidly at times, but he's still more popular and thus a lot richer than most of his French colleagues.

moray_gub

afx237vi wrote:

To be fair, though, he has virtually no chance of keeping up with the main GC riders when they start racing, so why not do what he does in the hope that they allow him to get away?

It's better for him to be a glorious failure and finish 150th than be a sensible rider who does nothing and finishes 18th. Voeckler may race stupidly at times, but he's still more popular and thus a lot richer than most of his French colleagues.

In stage races in partcicular he needs to learn how to conserve energy and pick the right time to attack like he did last year. As i say he often wastes energy on ridiculous moves that not really exciting and just make you shake your head.

blackpanther

Moray Gub wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

To be fair, though, he has virtually no chance of keeping up with the main GC riders when they start racing, so why not do what he does in the hope that they allow him to get away?

It's better for him to be a glorious failure and finish 150th than be a sensible rider who does nothing and finishes 18th. Voeckler may race stupidly at times, but he's still more popular and thus a lot richer than most of his French colleagues.

In stage races in partcicular he needs to learn how to conserve energy and pick the right time to attack like he did last year. As i say he often wastes energy on ridiculous moves that not really exciting and just make you shake your head.

Im sure hes scouring this thread for advice on what to do...........................

afx237vi

Moray Gub wrote:

In stage races in partcicular he needs to learn how to conserve energy and pick the right time to attack like he did last year. As i say he often wastes energy on ridiculous moves that not really exciting and just make you shake your head.

I agree to an extent, but I think he also knows what his limitations are. Why bother conserving energy when you're still going to be blown away when the racing starts? You may as well do a daft do-or-die attack and get your face on the TV.

The alternative is being someone like Christophe Riblon. A solid stage racer, top 10s here and top 20s there, but ultimately anonymous. Riblon is a better stage racer than Voeckler, yet most cycling fans wouldn't blink if they were sat next to him on the bus.

Kléber

Voeckler doesn't train cleverly and his team isn't much help to him. Yet he was fifth on the climb to Mende. He's capable of disputing the finish at Liege - Bastogne - Liege. So yes, he's exciting but he's also wasting the chance to win bigger races. Still, it all makes the sport more colourful.

moray_gub

blackpanther wrote:

Moray Gub wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

To be fair, though, he has virtually no chance of keeping up with the main GC riders when they start racing, so why not do what he does in the hope that they allow him to get away?

It's better for him to be a glorious failure and finish 150th than be a sensible rider who does nothing and finishes 18th. Voeckler may race stupidly at times, but he's still more popular and thus a lot richer than most of his French colleagues.

In stage races in partcicular he needs to learn how to conserve energy and pick the right time to attack like he did last year. As i say he often wastes energy on ridiculous moves that not really exciting and just make you shake your head.

Im sure hes scouring this thread for advice on what to do...........................

If he isn't then he should be.

blackpanther

Moray Gub wrote:

blackpanther wrote:

Moray Gub wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

To be fair, though, he has virtually no chance of keeping up with the main GC riders when they start racing, so why not do what he does in the hope that they allow him to get away?

It's better for him to be a glorious failure and finish 150th than be a sensible rider who does nothing and finishes 18th. Voeckler may race stupidly at times, but he's still more popular and thus a lot richer than most of his French colleagues.

In stage races in partcicular he needs to learn how to conserve energy and pick the right time to attack like he did last year. As i say he often wastes energy on ridiculous moves that not really exciting and just make you shake your head.

Im sure hes scouring this thread for advice on what to do...........................

If he isn't then he should be.

iainf72

afx237vi wrote:

The alternative is being someone like Christophe Riblon. A solid stage racer, top 10s here and top 20s there, but ultimately anonymous. Riblon is a better stage racer than Voeckler, yet most cycling fans wouldn't blink if they were sat next to him on the bus.

I think MG's point about how he was thrown a bone in the 04 TdF is a valid one. The reason his mad attacks are noteworthy is because people know who he is. But if he hadn't done that stretch in yellow he would be nameless break fodder, rather than TV, the break fodder.

Cumulonimbus

I think the stage that Moray Gug referred to was the Prato Nevoso stage in 2008.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/200 ... e/tour0815

The leading group is over 10 minutes ahead of the bunch yet Voeckler goes on an attack on a descent. Maybe he hoped a group would join him but i dont think it was seriously meant as a potential stage winning attack. The rest day was coming up so maybe he felt good but missed the break and just fancied making things more interesting. Maybe he just wanted his face on the TV...

afx237vi

iainf72 wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

The alternative is being someone like Christophe Riblon. A solid stage racer, top 10s here and top 20s there, but ultimately anonymous. Riblon is a better stage racer than Voeckler, yet most cycling fans wouldn't blink if they were sat next to him on the bus.

I think MG's point about how he was thrown a bone in the 04 TdF is a valid one. The reason his mad attacks are noteworthy is because people know who he is. But if he hadn't done that stretch in yellow he would be nameless break fodder, rather than TV, the break fodder.

Sure, I agree with that, but all I'm saying is you can't blame him for playing up to that image. He gives the public what they want.

The knowledgable cycling fan will shake their head and tut at another stupid move from Voeckler, but the average spectator who only takes a passing interest will probably know about Voeckler and his "brave" attacks. It's what makes him popular.

jerry3571

From a viewer's point of view; I like Voeckler doing his attacks. The peleton would be less interesting without it. If they all rode to the book then the great events of cycling would be a lot less in number. Chiappucci on Sestriere, Pantani causing Armstrong to blow on the Col de Joux Plane, Eros Poli winning a mountain stage in the Tour. The list goes on.
As far as Voeckler being dope free; well, who knows, a lot of bike riders have told us a lot of porkies in the past. the Jury is out with me; only he really knows.

-Jerry

Garry H

jerry3571 wrote:

From a viewer's point of view; I like Voeckler doing his attacks. The peloton would be less interesting without it. If they all rode to the book then the great events of cycling would be a lot less in number. Chiappucci on Sestriere, Pantani causing Armstrong to blow on the Col de Joux Plane, Eros Poli winning a mountain stage in the Tour. The list goes on.
As far as Voeckler being dope free; well, who knows, a lot of bike riders have told us a lot of porkies in the past. the Jury is out with me; only he really knows.

-Jerry

If he's taking anything, then he should be asking for his money back!! With the benefit of hindsight, I think it's quite ironic to compare him to Chiappucci or Pantani...

frenchfighter

iainf72 wrote:

I think MG's point about how he was thrown a bone in the 04 TdF is a valid one. The reason his mad attacks are noteworthy is because people know who he is. But if he hadn't done that stretch in yellow he would be nameless break fodder, rather than TV, the break fodder.

I disagree here.

I would still really like and enjoy him reagardless of his past Tour performances. An attack cannot be classified as exciting or not based on a previous performance.

Recent example: Tondo in P-N - I wasn't overly aware of him but his attack was very exciting to watch. You could also say attacking on a shortish climb which has a decent descent to follow before the finish is 'mad' when you have a group of very talented GC riders who you would easily assume would want to attack with purpose to gain time.

frenchfighter

afx237vi wrote:

The knowledgable cycling fan will shake their head and tut at another stupid move from Voeckler, but the average spectator who only takes a passing interest will probably know about Voeckler and his "brave" attacks. It's what makes him popular.

I don't have this attitude, not that I think it is wrong. I enjoy the attacks and am not overly fussed if a win does not come at the end.

The funny thing here is that people are saying he is stupid, but his attack on the Col d'Eze wasn't stupid...he came second with his other attacker.

frenchfighter

Updated UCI World Rankings are now updated:

LLS
Griepel
Contador
Valverde

AG2R won the Team Classification which is pretty good.

Kléber

frenchfighter wrote:

The funny thing here is that people are saying he is stupid, but his attack on the Col d'Eze wasn't stupid...he came second with his other attacker.

His move to attack Moinard wasn't clever. Nor was launching the sprint with a long way to go into a headwind. Yes he's exciting but like I say, you could see this panache at the front end of Liege-Bastogne-Liege rather than Paris-Camembert if only he could get the tactics right.

andyrr

May have been that his attack on Moinard (which did seem a bit of a waste of energy to the armchair viewer) on the climb was due to getting an indication that the bunch were closing, maybe Moinard was starting to appear to weaken a little and to hammer it over the top of the climb would give him a reasonable chance of the stage ?
His sprint was pretty poor but maybe Moinard, mountain climber or not, had a better sprint and Voeckler had to try to take the sting out of it.
Sometimes he does go for pretty pointless looking attacks - sometimes it may be TV coverage he's after, sometimes it's maybe like Vasseur who would attack even when he felt crap because his reasoning was that if he felt like that then hopefully everyone else felt the same. Attack 100 times, 99 times you fail, once you win. So many other riders will hardly get the sniff of a win, so try, fail, try again and if you've failed then at least you tried. Maybe with a better 'racing brain' he'd do a lot better even with his talent but maybe then he'd always just hold off from attacking until the right moment - the moment that never comes ?!

I like him, I think he'll probably annoy a lot of riders with his attacking but he does sometimes have the nose for when to give it a good go (last year's TdF stage) so there is something between the ears !

takethehighroad

There's not a hell of a lot of difference between the racing styles of Tommy and Ignatiev. The two of them both go in breaks to get sponsors on telly, and they seldom, but sometimes, win. The only real difference between them being Tommy's had the Yellow Jersey on and so is considered slightly more credible.

Like afx says, a rider like Tommy is instantly more popular in France because he subscribes to the school of pleasing the housewives. Instead of shouting "Allez Richard" at another jaunt through the mountains, they now shout "Allez Thomas" at another jaunt across the flatlands.

moray_gub

frenchfighter wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

The knowledgable cycling fan will shake their head and tut at another stupid move from Voeckler, but the average spectator who only takes a passing interest will probably know about Voeckler and his "brave" attacks. It's what makes him popular.

I don't have this attitude, not that I think it is wrong. I enjoy the attacks and am not overly fussed if a win does not come at the end.

The funny thing here is that people are saying he is stupid, but his attack on the Col d'Eze wasn't stupid...he came second with his other attacker.

His attack on Col d,Eze was not to enable him to come 2nd though he was trying to drop his breakway companion after they had been away for some time. So all he did was use up some valuable enery and combine that with his tactically inept sprint and that is why he finished 2nd and did not win like he maybe should have done.