Wheel buying virgin seeks reassurance

macondo01

I'm planning to save up for some new wheels to replace my Shimano R500's on my CAAD9. Having spoken to Derek at Wheel Smith he suggested ambrosio excellight rims and ambrosio hubs and some sapim spokes for about £300. Because I haven't a clue what this all means and £300 is a lot of money to spend, will I notice a difference from my old wheels. I just need a bit of reassurance in making the step as a wheel buying virgin! Cheers.

South Bound

I noticed a huge difference in upgrading my OEM wheels for new ones, bike felt so much skippier, thought it was falling apart until I realised it was actually a whole lot more responsive. £300 is loads (Road Beginners forum!) and I am sure they are lovely, but £100 on Planet X Model Bs is the best upgrade I have made - I am sure there are better wheels, but there are also diminishing returns IMO.

macondo01

Yes £300 is a lot! Purely judging on price you can buy the R500's for about £60 are the Planet X model B's (£100) much different from £60 wheels? Perhaps hard to say?

I'll check Planet X ones out - thanks

Harry182

In terms of "value for money" the Planet X Model B's are very hard to beat.

antfly

My bike came with R-500s, any wheel of about £150 would be an improvement and you would go faster. I got Mavic Aksiums myself when they were £85 and i`m happy with them.

macondo01

The reviews seem good!! You've got me thinking. Would there any problems using them on my bike which has 9 speed tiagra?

iPete

I'm in the same dilema, got a similar quote from Derek but with Ambrosio Excellence rims!
I'm going to be touring on the wheels but for price difference Models B's are ever so tempting!

Lillywhite

I got some Fulcrum 5's from Merlin Cycles. Great price and great service.

http://www.merlincycles.co.uk/mountain- ... -pair.html

macondo01

I'm in the same dilema, got a similar quote from Derek but with Ambrosio Excellence rims!
I'm going to be touring on the wheels but for price difference Models B's are ever so tempting

I am leaning on the side of saving £200. I think. :?

Harry182

Macondo01 wrote:

The reviews seem good!! You've got me thinking. Would there any problems using them on my bike which has 9 speed tiagra?

The Shimano Model B's come with a 8,9,10 speed compatible freehub, ie not the silly Shimano attempt-to-corner-the-market (and IIRC discontinued) 10-speed only freehub.

macondo01

The Shimano Model B's come with a 8,9,10 speed compatible freehub, ie not the silly Shimano attempt-to-corner-the-market (and IIRC discontinued) 10-speed only freehub.

Thanks. That's good.

markos1963

Planet X B's are certainly a good buy for a beginner to upgrade their bike, no question. However why were you looking at the handbuilts? Certainly that build is going to give you a major improvement over your current wheels and there is something special about getting something purpose made for yourself. £300 is certainly a fair amount of money but in reality represents the next stage of upgrade for a beginner wheelwise and they would last a lot longer and have the benefit of being easily repairable.

flasher

I've been riding model b's for well over a year now and they're nothing short of fantastic, they spin smoothly and run as straight and true as they did when new. For 100 quid they're too cheap (although mine were nearer £150), I'd say they equate to £250-300 wheels easily, in fact the cheapness may put people of!!

ScottieP

A couple of other alternatives for you to consider.... Shimano Ultegra 6700 wheels have had great reviews and would a good leap up in performance - they are £230 at Merlin which seems to be the best price. If you were still considering spendin £300 you could get a set of Fulcrum 3's from Merlin for that price - they are a nice wheel. Or if you want a cheaper handbuilt you could try calling Harry Rowland another very good wheel builder ... last year he was selling Mavic Open Pros on Novatec hubs for about £200 and he is reputedly one of the best builders in the country.

Hope that helps.

blorg

iPete wrote:

I'm in the same dilema, got a similar quote from Derek but with Ambrosio Excellence rims!
I'm going to be touring on the wheels but for price difference Models B's are ever so tempting!

Model Bs would not be a good choice for loaded touring, they are a low spoke count wheel. Model Cs have 32 spokes and would be much better.

Regarding the freehub, sometimes they come with 10 speed only (my Model Cs did) so if you need 9 speed make sure to specify this when ordering. If you run 10 speed though a 10 speed-only hub is better as it won't get chewed up by the cassette.

balthazar

Macondo01 wrote:

I'm planning to save up for some new wheels to replace my Shimano R500's on my CAAD9. Having spoken to Derek at Wheel Smith he suggested ambrosio excellight rims and ambrosio hubs and some sapim spokes for about £300. Because I haven't a clue what this all means and £300 is a lot of money to spend, will I notice a difference from my old wheels. I just need a bit of reassurance in making the step as a wheel buying virgin! Cheers.

Notice a difference – in respect of what? This phrase (notice a difference) comes up regularly here, without clarification. The wheels you describe are as good as it gets: top quality rims, well-built by a highly respected wheelbuilder; they should be light, very durable, and easily maintained and repaired if and when necessary.

Assuming your current wheels are round and the bearings are ok, there won't be any change in the bike from the point of view of riding it, but you'll have the confidence that your new wheels are long-lived and high quality.

macondo01

Thanks for all the feedback.

Markos1963 - You asked why handbuilts. I think three reasons: 1) value for money 2) something personal 3) I like the idea of supporting a craft/craftsman.

balthazar - yes 'notice a difference' is vague. I'll try to be more precise. It's be great if a wheel would make me faster but at my level I think that's perhaps unrealistic, may be on hills if they are lighter perhaps. So more about feel, more responsive. South Bound used the word 'skippier' - that'd be good. Durable, yes. I hadn't thought about maintenance being better as you suggested (why is that by the way?).

balthazar

Macondo01 wrote:

balthazar - yes 'notice a difference' is vague. I'll try to be more precise. It's be great if a wheel would make me faster but at my level I think that's perhaps unrealistic, may be on hills if they are lighter perhaps. So more about feel, more responsive. South Bound used the word 'skippier' - that'd be good. Durable, yes. I hadn't thought about maintenance being better as you suggested (why is that by the way?).

You needn't worry about your"level", and I don't think changes to bikes make cyclists go faster (within obvious reason). That's a matter for your heart, lungs, and legs. I really don't know what "feel" and "responsive" mean either, but I accept that you must mean the same something by them that everybody else does.

Regarding maintenance, I mean that traditional wheels, like those you're thinking of, use the kind of ordinary spokes that bike shops either carry in stock or can get quickly; and their wheelbuilders can replace spokes, or otherwise attend to an untrue or dinged wheel, easily. Also, there are enough spokes that a failure of one doesn't result in a wheel that won't make it through your frame anymore, necessitating recovery by helicopter, or something.

grim3ur

Aerodynamically for the money the R500 is hard to beat because of the low spoke count and the aero shaped rim. The wheels that you are considering buying will probably be aerodynamically less efficient, but lighter and have the benefits of being hand built and therefore repairable easily and cheaply.
I would recommend against buying the planet x's as although they are cheap some people find that they are quite flexy and the spokes have a tendency to work loose.
I can recommend this guy steve for hand built wheels if you want to look around for more advice.
Just had a thought, hows about you get your r500 hubs rebuilt onto different rims of your choice?

macondo01

Aerodynamically for the money the R500 is hard to beat because of the low spoke count and the aero shaped rim. The wheels that you are considering buying will probably be aerodynamically less efficient, but lighter and have the benefits of being hand built and therefore repairable easily and cheaply.
I would recommend against buying the planet x's as although they are cheap some people find that they are quite flexy and the spokes have a tendency to work loose.
I can recommend this guy steve for hand built wheels if you want to look around for more advice.
Just had a thought, hows about you get your r500 hubs rebuilt onto different rims of your choice?

Blimmey this is a complicated lark! I hadn't thought my R500's were up to a rebuild? Really?
I think my head is going around more than my wheels !!

blorg

I wouldn't try rebuilding the R500s, keep them for training/spare wheels or sell them. Probably keep them as you wouldn't get a lot for them. They are grand wheels, I have three of them myself, but they are Tiagra-level and aren't really worth putting money into.

sturmey

My philsophy with wheels is have a decent £300+ set for occasional use and the rest of the time use £80 to £150 wheels which you can throw away when rims or hubs fail or get eaten by potholes.
Have you seen the state of the roads at the moment?
They are in better condition in Iraq.

huuregeil

A slightly different opinion here....

A well built set of 32 spoke wheels, with decent rims and hubs, is the kind of wheel you would never not use, and they will be absolutely dependable and last until the rim goes (barring a big prang!), at which point you can rebuild them. Training, racing, light touring, European sportives, you name it. There might be better wheels for each of these on their own, but these will do it all. It's a long term investment and solution, and I think excellent value.

Now, I accept that £100 for a pair of wheels is an exceptional price, but there has to be a compromise somewhere. In terms of the planet x's, this appears to be (not having ridden them, but going off other reports) stiffness (which is a factor for me), and also repairability/rideability if a spoke breaks. Break the price of a good quality handbuilt down:

2x decent rims at £50 each = £100
64 spokes = £20-£30
Hubs = £70

Total, excluding the wheelbuilder's time = £200. Where have Planet X compromised to get the price down? Rims, likely costing half. Less spokes (thus the stiffness/rideability issue). Cheaper hubs. Less time spent on the wheelbuild. Bulk buying, sure.

If you're just going for local spins close to home, the Planet X's seem fine. But anything more, I'd go with handbuilts, far better value in the long run, and far more dependable.

Which brings me on to the final point. Derek's price for this build seems high. I'm just getting a set of wheels built up be a well regarded wheelbuilder, and they're costing me £45 for the build for both of them. This seems a fair price. Why not shop for rims and hubs on the internet (ebay or the usual suspects), and find a decent wheelbuilder to build them up, or ask other wheelbuilders for quotes for a similar package. You'll likely get closer to £200. The ambrosio rims mentioned are excellent (Excellight, Excellence). The ambrosio hubs mentioned are good but you also can't go wrong with Shimano hubs, and these come up relatively often as ebay bargains.

Happy shopping!

blorg

Planet X have a Model C wheelset that is traditional 32 spoke. £127. Very nice wheels, very slightly lighter than my Ultegra/Open Pros. Completely rebuildable etc. with none of the disadvantages you mention. Good quality.

http://www.planet-x-warehouse.co.uk/aca ... ODELC.html

Lower spoke count (24/20) wheels are for people specifically looking to lose a bit of weight on a wheelset for racing/general unloaded riding etc. I haven't used the Model Bs myself but friends with them speak highly of them. They would not be suited to touring due to the low spoke count but would certainly do the rest fine.

The general quality of PX wheels seems to be very high; I have a pair of their track wheels also.

I would mention with all of this you need to consider what you want here. 32 spoke handbuilts can be very nice "do everything" type wheels (I have 32 spoke Ultegra/Open Pro on my tourer myself) but frankly if you are never going touring they are not particularly necessary and are going to be overly heavy. While they roll very well they do feel heavy on my unloaded road bikes compared to the selection of lighter weight 1280g-1525g wheels I have to put on that.

Chip \'oyler

huuregeil wrote:

A slightly different opinion here....

A well built set of 32 spoke wheels, with decent rims and hubs, is the kind of wheel you would never not use, and they will be absolutely dependable and last until the rim goes (barring a big prang!), at which point you can rebuild them. Training, racing, light touring, European sportives, you name it. There might be better wheels for each of these on their own, but these will do it all. It's a long term investment and solution, and I think excellent value.

Now, I accept that £100 for a pair of wheels is an exceptional price, but there has to be a compromise somewhere. In terms of the planet x's, this appears to be (not having ridden them, but going off other reports) stiffness (which is a factor for me), and also repairability/rideability if a spoke breaks. Break the price of a good quality handbuilt down:

2x decent rims at £50 each = £100
64 spokes = £20-£30
Hubs = £70

Total, excluding the wheelbuilder's time = £200. Where have Planet X compromised to get the price down? Rims, likely costing half. Less spokes (thus the stiffness/rideability issue). Cheaper hubs. Less time spent on the wheelbuild. Bulk buying, sure.

If you're just going for local spins close to home, the Planet X's seem fine. But anything more, I'd go with handbuilts, far better value in the long run, and far more dependable.

Which brings me on to the final point. Derek's price for this build seems high. I'm just getting a set of wheels built up be a well regarded wheelbuilder, and they're costing me £45 for the build for both of them. This seems a fair price. Why not shop for rims and hubs on the internet (ebay or the usual suspects), and find a decent wheelbuilder to build them up, or ask other wheelbuilders for quotes for a similar package. You'll likely get closer to £200. The ambrosio rims mentioned are excellent (Excellight, Excellence). The ambrosio hubs mentioned are good but you also can't go wrong with Shimano hubs, and these come up relatively often as ebay bargains.

Happy shopping!

Good post

huuregeil

blorg wrote:

32 spoke handbuilts can be very nice "do everything" type wheels (I have 32 spoke Ultegra/Open Pro on my tourer myself) but frankly if you are never going touring they are not particularly necessary and are going to be overly heavy.

You make some fair points, particularly regarding intended usage. However, I guess I disagree slightly with this comment. What do you mean by touring? I'd chose to use 32h handbuilts whenever I'm doing any ride that puts me a long way from home, or when a broken spoke is not going to be good news: centuries and longer rides, particularly solo; anything involving baggage handlers; anything involving a decent amount of descending; yes, light touring for sure; anything involving rough roads.

Hence their do it all nature! If you do none of this, or never anticipate doing this, then fine. Lighter wheels with fewer spokes are absolutely perfect for racing, short local blasts, etc. But any more, and I'd take reliabilty over a few grams any day.

The other point that hasn't been mentioned is that if you do lots of miles, particularly in crappy weather, better hubs may well have better seals and more durable freehub ratchets, leading to less maintenance hassle.

blorg

By touring I mean loaded touring with panniers. The likes of Ultegra/Open Pros are not necessary for long rides whether solo or not IMO and they are certainly heavier than necessary for unloaded riding. If you are particularly heavy they might be a good idea for unloaded riding but even there, there are other options.

I have countless 200s, up to 325km single day, several 1,000km multi day, even light touring with saddle bag and bar bag on lightweight wheels. Many of which have been solo. I will be doing a full audax series this year and PBP next year. Tens of thousands of km without major incident.

Loaded touring is really the only thing that you can't do on a good quality light wheelset, if you want to do this I concur, you need 32 spokes minimum!

Loaded touring


Lightweight touring


Unloaded


Racing

huuregeil

blorg wrote:

I have countless 200s, up to 325km single day, several 1,000km multi day, even light touring with saddle bag and bar bag on lightweight wheels. Many of which have been solo. I will be doing a full audax series this year and PBP next year. Tens of thousands of km without major incident.

Fair enough, I can't argue with that!!! I guess we just have slightly different preferences when it comes to the trade-off between weight vs strength. Anyway, I think the OP should have enough info to make a decision.

Regards,

macondo01

Some really good points fo rme to think about here. Thanks all.

huuregeil you mentioned about shimano hubs. Coincidentally I found this you tube about shimano wheels today http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPW41cnuy30

I understand that some hubs are sealed and some not, like the shimano 6700's. Which are good shimano hubs for a build with ambrosio rims please? Also how would the R500's hubs be different to say the 6700's. The last time I took wheels apart was when I was a kid, buying a packet of steel ball bearings and greasing them into a wheel, tighten the cones. Has the technology changed that much?

carl_p

At £300 I would want a wheel with considerable visual appeal as well. Those PX Bs, whilst cheaper, look extremely dull and IMO less attractive than your current wheels.

I've a new CAAD9, which I haven't had a chance to ride yet (weather), so was particularly interested in this post as I might be looking to upgrade the OEM wheels at some stage. What I'll be concerned about is how a replacement wheel actually rides with my frame. If it will make the ride teeth rattlingly harsh, would it be such an upgrade? Would be good to get the views of fellow CAAD9 upgraders on what works well.

What colour CAAD9 do you have? I've got the matt black. Not particularlyl exciting, but the advantage is most wheels, with a dab of colour here and there, will look fantastic.

balthazar

Carl_P wrote:

What I'll be concerned about is how a replacement wheel actually rides with my frame. If it will make the ride teeth rattlingly harsh, would it be such an upgrade?

You needn't worry about that. Vertical deflection of wheels is two orders of magnitude (hundredths) smaller that that of tyres, so considerably smaller than you could ever detect in riding. The actual deflection range of normal wheels is akin to the thickness of a sheet of copy paper. Consequently, "ride quality" isn't a concern for wheels. Lateral rigidity, strength, durability, repairability, cost; those are the things that matter, in my opinion. And of course looks.