Ruta Stage 1 *Spoiler*

Pokerface

frenchfighter wrote:

As for taking a punt from far out. You are aware that Contador attacks from very far out. Check his stage wins and see how many times he arrived solo and how far out he attacked from.

What do you consider "far out"? It seems he usually attacks in the final 5KM or less? At least the attacks that get him to the finish line solo.

This is not just something he does - but other riders also.

Besides the 100KM attack in Paris-Nice you mentioned, what other 'big, long distance" attacks has he done that have won him the race or stage?

Lastly - while I admire him, it seems he more often than not just enters races he knows he's going to win. And everyone else knows he's going to win. So it's all a little boring. Maybe he's just too good. Or maybe he needs to broaden his racing calendar a bit.

gabriel959

To me if you are not racing to win then there is no point in doing it.

frenchfighter

Pokerface wrote:

What do you consider "far out"? It seems he usually attacks in the final 5KM or less? At least the attacks that get him to the finish line solo.

This is not just something he does - but other riders also.

Besides the 100KM attack in Paris-Nice you mentioned, what other 'big, long distance" attacks has he done that have won him the race or stage?

Lastly - while I admire him, it seems he more often than not just enters races he knows he's going to win. And everyone else knows he's going to win. So it's all a little boring. Maybe he's just too good. Or maybe he needs to broaden his racing calendar a bit.

Please provide examples of GT riders, so those who are Top 5 or so, who attack and maintain that FTW from say 5km or more out...not saying it doesn't happen, just can't think of one. When Contador goes he goes and he does it from a far way out.

Cannot think of other similar long range attacks by him but then at least I can think of one which was great whereas I cannot think of any for any other GC riders. Can you?

Another example would be in the Tour with Frank and Andy.

On your last point, it is a fair one, although I'm sure it makes sense to you that a stage racer will predominantly enter stage races and if he is the best stage racer in the World then he is likely to win. I would like him to enter a few different races as would most people and he has said he would like to himself. Like I said previously he has raced the Ardennes before and San Sebastian and other 1 day races.

Pokerface

frenchfighter wrote:

Pokerface wrote:

What do you consider "far out"? It seems he usually attacks in the final 5KM or less? At least the attacks that get him to the finish line solo.

This is not just something he does - but other riders also.

Besides the 100KM attack in Paris-Nice you mentioned, what other 'big, long distance" attacks has he done that have won him the race or stage?

Lastly - while I admire him, it seems he more often than not just enters races he knows he's going to win. And everyone else knows he's going to win. So it's all a little boring. Maybe he's just too good. Or maybe he needs to broaden his racing calendar a bit.

Please provide examples of GT riders, so those who are Top 5 or so, who attack and maintain that FTW from say 5km or more out...not saying it doesn't happen, just can't think of one. When Contador goes he goes and he does it from a far way out.

Cannot think of other similar long range attacks by him but then at least I can think of one which was great whereas I cannot think of any for any other GC riders. Can you?

Another example would be in the Tour with Frank and Andy.

On your last point, it is a fair one, although I'm sure it makes sense to you that a stage racer will predominantly enter stage races and if he is the best stage racer in the World then he is likely to win. I would like him to enter a few different races as would most people and he has said he would like to himself. Like I said previously he has raced the Ardennes before and San Sebastian and other 1 day races.

You didn't answer my question.

What is "far out" in terms of distance?


2006 Tour was essentially won by Óscar Pereiro by an all-day breakaway. You can package it up any way you want - but that's what happened.


2008, Carlos Sastre, Alpe Duez attack? How long was that?

disgruntledgoat

But FF, you said you weren't bothered about the win, just the spectacle.

Anyway, again, a few off the top of my head

Ullrich on the Tourmalet 2003
Merckx 1969 (?) Tour of Flanders 65km. In fact the whole of Merckx's first Tour win.
Ciapucchi 1992 Tour to Sestrieres (180km!)
Pantani on the galibier 1998
Indurain in the Ardennes in the 1994 (?) Tour, when he let Bruyneel win.

avoidingmyphd

gabriel959 wrote:

To me if you are not racing to win then there is no point in doing it.

You might want to explain that to the 90% of pro cyclists who in any given race are riding to help someone else win.

Frenchfighter and gabriel959, yoy are missing a pretty important aspect of a pro cyclist's life: sacrificing their chances by working inefficiently (at the front, off the back, in the wind, at the wrong time of the stage, in bits that don't suit them etc etc) to contribute to someone else's chances, and see their own go down the drain.

In fact, I think it is more honourable for a GT contender to do this at this stage in the year than to chase (pointless) wins. To the extent that Wiggins says his role in this race is to support Gerrans in the GT, then you're being unfair on him (I'm not arguing that this explains his 7 min deficit yesterday though). As it happens, it can be good training too.

disgruntledgoat

Incidentally, I'm staying out of the whole 2006 farce, but there were 2 rides in that year and Pokerface has mentioned 1 of them.

frenchfighter

disgruntledgoat wrote:

But FF, you said you weren't bothered about the win, just the spectacle.

Anyway, again, a few off the top of my head

Ullrich on the Tourmalet 2003
Merckx 1969 (?) Tour of Flanders 65km. In fact the whole of Merckx's first Tour win.
Ciapucchi 1992 Tour to Sestrieres (180km!)
Pantani on the galibier 1998
Indurain in the Ardennes in the 1994 (?) Tour, when he let Bruyneel win.

Why do you keep giving me old-school examples?!

thamacdaddy

Thanks for the offensive reference to being a "proper cycling fan" and understanding there is more to the season than the Tour FF, you really are an immature child in most of your posts but this one beats most I have seen.

It's quite simple, you effectively had a go at wiggins for being so far down the GC in a race in Feb saying he needed to come a long way to be up there with the big boys come july.

But as you would know if you weren't blinkered the early season is a massive mix of people preparing for a long season, coming into their first races after the off season and those trying to peak for the classics in a month or so. All riders have a focus each season, for ecample Cav wants green in the tour, possibly defend san remo (looks a bit hard at the mo with his late start due to the teeth) and the WC in australia at the end of the year. For Wiggans it's to be their GC rider in the tour (whether he places in the top 3 or not that's his target). I think anyone who targets every single race is going to a/ be superman and b/ ruin themselves very quickly. Mercx was almost this style of rider and his peak level didn't last too long.

I think it's not only sensible, but fair, that most riders do have specific targets for races and what they want to use it for. So they could intend to test their form on the hills, on the flat, in time trials whatever it may be I think it is the wonderful focused sport we all follow that shows how creating that magic peak form at a specific time is a very delicate thing to do and fascinating how everyone tweaks everything from nutrition to bikes to position. What makes the season exciting is that everyone has their own targets for the season and entertain us at different points of it. Whoever is motoring now, probably won't be come the tour but if they were all the more reason to have a good discussion. Certainly isn't any point in using any results now as any indication of anything really other than current form and who won what when. I guess the big thing also is no matter how many races there are big tours and big classics etc that matter to most and those that they use as training. And as fans I have no doubt we all make our own judgements on what we see as those that matter.

I couldn't even make it through one TdF stage (maybe a prologue well off the pace) let alone a full season of tours so in fact every pro tour rider has my respect but I am more interested in teamwork angle of cycling than individuals anyways. I like the debates but I think judging form now as an indicator of how the season will go is simply going to make you look foolish when we look at this thread again in september.

Of course I think much of this comes from people's own predudices or feelings on riders being backed up, in the same way footy fans take any result to rub it into mates who support other teams.

Pokerface

frenchfighter wrote:

Another example would be in the Tour with Frank and Andy.

Riding away from the rest of the field (as they did on that day) isn't the same as attacking -not to me.

Now - if he pulled away from the brothers on that day and soloed to victory, then that would be a different matter.

Didn't he just sit on Frank's wheel for most of that day while Andy tried to pull away?

frenchfighter

phd, I see what you are saying.

Consider this - has anyone here said (and it been based on fact) that Wiggins came so far back as he buried himself for a teammate?

If he did, why are none of his teammates at or near the top of GC?

Btw, do you realise Gerrans was 4 mins down.

Also, even if he does bury himself for someone else, it doesn't mean he has to finish near the back.

And taking this to Contador, who is he meant to work for? Who has the wherewithall to take a Stage Race?

And thanks for explaining the domestiques role...I'm not new to cycling.

disgruntledgoat

frenchfighter wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

But FF, you said you weren't bothered about the win, just the spectacle.

Anyway, again, a few off the top of my head

Ullrich on the Tourmalet 2003
Merckx 1969 (?) Tour of Flanders 65km. In fact the whole of Merckx's first Tour win.
Ciapucchi 1992 Tour to Sestrieres (180km!)
Pantani on the galibier 1998
Indurain in the Ardennes in the 1994 (?) Tour, when he let Bruyneel win.

Why do you keep giving me old-school examples?!

Well I could give you Floyd Landis... but I don't think you'd like that

thre is only one there I would take as "old school" and that would be Merckx. What's the cut off for "old school"?

Please give me an example of 1 new school GC rider who has the balls and belief in themselves to attack before the final climb of a GC summit finish.

disgruntledgoat

Pokerface wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

Another example would be in the Tour with Frank and Andy.

Riding away from the rest of the field (as they did on that day) isn't the same as attacking -not to me.

Now - if he pulled away from the brothers on that day and soloed to victory, then that would be a different matter.

Didn't he just sit on Frank's wheel for most of that day while Andy tried to pull away?

TBF, that's GT riding, if you don't need to do it, don't do it. I respect that.

Pokerface

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Please give me an example of 1 new school GC rider who has the balls and belief in themselves to attack before the final climb of a GC summit finish.

Evans. Although he never pulls it off.

afx237vi

disgruntledgoat wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

But FF, you said you weren't bothered about the win, just the spectacle.

Anyway, again, a few off the top of my head

Ullrich on the Tourmalet 2003
Merckx 1969 (?) Tour of Flanders 65km. In fact the whole of Merckx's first Tour win.
Ciapucchi 1992 Tour to Sestrieres (180km!)
Pantani on the galibier 1998
Indurain in the Ardennes in the 1994 (?) Tour, when he let Bruyneel win.

Why do you keep giving me old-school examples?!

Well I could give you Floyd Landis... but I don't think you'd like that

thre is only one there I would take as "old school" and that would be Merckx. What's the cut off for "old school"?

Please give me an example of 1 new school GC rider who has the balls and belief in themselves to attack before the final climb of a GC summit finish.

*enters thread*

Ricco.

*exits thread*

Pokerface

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Pokerface wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

Another example would be in the Tour with Frank and Andy.

Riding away from the rest of the field (as they did on that day) isn't the same as attacking -not to me.

Now - if he pulled away from the brothers on that day and soloed to victory, then that would be a different matter.

Didn't he just sit on Frank's wheel for most of that day while Andy tried to pull away?

TBF, that's GT riding, if you don't need to do it, don't do it. I respect that.

Agreed. But FF was talking about long-range attacks by El Pistolero. Not Tour tactics.

Pokerface

afx237vi wrote:

Please give me an example of 1 new school GC rider who has the balls and belief in themselves to attack before the final climb of a GC summit finish.

*enters thread*

Ricco.

*exits thread*

Brilliant!

disgruntledgoat

afx237vi wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

But FF, you said you weren't bothered about the win, just the spectacle.

Anyway, again, a few off the top of my head

Ullrich on the Tourmalet 2003
Merckx 1969 (?) Tour of Flanders 65km. In fact the whole of Merckx's first Tour win.
Ciapucchi 1992 Tour to Sestrieres (180km!)
Pantani on the galibier 1998
Indurain in the Ardennes in the 1994 (?) Tour, when he let Bruyneel win.

Why do you keep giving me old-school examples?!

Well I could give you Floyd Landis... but I don't think you'd like that

thre is only one there I would take as "old school" and that would be Merckx. What's the cut off for "old school"?

Please give me an example of 1 new school GC rider who has the balls and belief in themselves to attack before the final climb of a GC summit finish.

*enters thread*

Ricco.

*exits thread*

Chapeau sir!

frenchfighter

thamacdaddy wrote:

I think judging form now as an indicator of how the season will go is simply going to make you look foolish when we look at this thread again in september.

frenchfighter wrote:

The Prodigy wrote:

Why some people are making massive judgements about lots of riders and teams at this point in the season is totally beyond me.

I am not making judgement about his form in July from one stage at all. Just that it is very surprising that he came so far down.

Also it is perfectly possible that you can do well in July AND in early season. They are not mutually exclusive, just hard and so if they are done those riders deserve more respect.

Who's foolish?

frenchfighter

Yeah Ricco is great viewing. Hopefully he will try and go long range again.

andyp

frenchfighter wrote:

thamacdaddy wrote:

I think judging form now as an indicator of how the season will go is simply going to make you look foolish when we look at this thread again in september.

frenchfighter wrote:

The Prodigy wrote:

Why some people are making massive judgements about lots of riders and teams at this point in the season is totally beyond me.

I am not making judgement about his form in July from one stage at all. Just that it is very surprising that he came so far down.

Also it is perfectly possible that you can do well in July AND in early season. They are not mutually exclusive, just hard and so if they are done those riders deserve more respect.

Who's foolish?

I think most of us know the answer to that one.

stagehopper

frenchfighter wrote:

Please provide examples of GT riders, so those who are Top 5 or so, who attack and maintain that FTW from say 5km or more out...not saying it doesn't happen, just can't think of one. When Contador goes he goes and he does it from a far way out.

Cannot think of other similar long range attacks by him but then at least I can think of one which was great whereas I cannot think of any for any other GC riders. Can you?

Let's face it the conclusion after 5 pages is:

Alberto Contador - he's no Emma Pooley.

The Prodigy

frenchfighter wrote:

The Prodigy wrote:

Why some people are making massive judgements about lots of riders and teams at this point in the season is totally beyond me.

I am not making judgement about his form in July from one stage at all. Just that it is very surprising that he came so far down.

Also it is perfectly possible that you can do well in July AND in early season. They are not mutually exclusive, just hard and so if they are done those riders deserve more respect.

It sure sounded like a judgement when you said he had a long way to go to play with the big boys, since I doubt he entered this race to do anything other than the TT and help his team mates I don't really see how him being 1,7 or even 30 mins down has any relevance to him playing with the big boys at any time of the year.

If someone peaks in Feb and July good luck to them, most riders don't have the comfort of being in a position where they can do exactly what they want through the year.

Ironman595

These guys are climbing well already... surely if any of these be true champs, must be GT contenders come july :?

1 - Sergio Pardilla - (ESP) - Carmiooro - ( 4:11:55)
2 - Jurgen Van den Broeck - (BEL) - Omega Pharma-Lotto - (+9)
3 - Damiano Cunego - (ITA) - Lampre - (+13)
4 - Manuel Vázquez - (ESP) - Andalucía - (+13)
5 - Bauke Mollema - (NED) - Rabobank - (+21)

I dont think so... neither do I 90% of any race jan/feb/march.

tbh I just think he's been told to sit back with who was having trouble, 79 - Kjell Carlström - (FIN) - Team Sky - (+7:21) (who wiggo cycled over the line with) and is seriously saving his legs for the TT- which he has openly said he will work hard on- so atleast acknowledge him on those efforts. until then... all he has done is ride up a climb early season at a sustained lower domianed effort, to stimulate substrate utilisation ie fat burn more efficiently pre tour.
A large part of the british support squad are extremley experienced sports physiologists and require some sort of data to produce and deliver useful interpretation with regards to further training.
I think working up a climb 7.21 behind the time shows very good discipline and great signs that sky are taking wiggins further than he would of, by more effective training.

My 2ps worth..

also worth noting greg henderson was 2min up on the climb over cav and wag and was still in the mix for todays stage 2, and oscar friere, although no where near the form he's been in, was 6.17 down... its really no biggie..

Carbonbased

Kléber wrote:

We'll see, he's said he wants to be on form for the Tour of Catalonia, which - after a calendar change - now happens in March.

It's in mid may.

andyp

Kléber is right, it's moved to the slot formerly occupied by the Semaine Catalan race, i.e. the last week of March.

Pross

Finishing that far down when you consider yourself capable of winning the Tour is shocking. Real champions don't just turn up to pedal round.

As for Cav...TOTALLY different.

You may differ from my opinion which is absolutely fine.

What can I say. The Tour is not the be all and end all to me. Maybe to people who don't know anything much about cycling.

Please provide many examples of GC riders who race throughout the year and win?

I gave up on the second page after reading these contradictions. First FF mentions the Tour as BW's lack of form on this race apparently suggests he stands no chance in the Tour, then he says the Tour isn't the be all and end all despite being the one who raised it. To top it off he suggests that real champions don't turn up to just pedal around but then when the mighty Contador's attitude to end of season races is challenged asks for examples of GC riders who race and win throughout the year. Anyone else confused? Is the meaning that BW should just not bother racing in events he isn't aiming to win a la Contador?