Ruta Stage 1 *Spoiler*

iainf72

frenchfighter wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

He ain't no Pip Gilbert or Evans in terms of racing a full season.

I made it pretty clear that I was refering to GC riders. Riders who think they can win a GT. Hence the point about Wiggins.

You can't really compare Stage Racers to Classics riders to sprinters very well.

Evans is a GC rider.

frenchfighter

Kléber wrote:

Valverde, Evans, Andy Schleck, Frank Schleck, Nibali, Kreuziger. Even Wiggins landed a couple of small wins, one in April and one in October.

Listing names without stats doesn't help overly. They need to be winning or finishing high up to be respected by me.

Note Valverde is on my signature,

I would suggest people have a look the the CQ ranking and the World rankings. You are near the top if you win a lot or perform well in a lot of races.

frenchfighter

iainf72 wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

He ain't no Pip Gilbert or Evans in terms of racing a full season.

I made it pretty clear that I was refering to GC riders. Riders who think they can win a GT. Hence the point about Wiggins.

You can't really compare Stage Racers to Classics riders to sprinters very well.

Evans is a GC rider.

I wasn't suggesting he wasn't. I know he races a lot and performs well...no cruising and I respect him for that. Note that I was in favour of him from the go...most others had only bad things to say about him, but are changing their tune after seeing him in the Worlds and his races after that.

calvjones

frenchfighter wrote:

They need to be winning or finishing high up to be respected by me.

As much as I hate to come over all Dennis, why don't you win something other that your club hill climb before coming over all pompous about pro-riders palmares? We all have riders we like/dislike, but the world ain't black and white. You wan't to big up a pair of teflon Spaniards because they can win all year, fine, but sneering at riders who lose a bundle in a single stage (in FEB FFS!) is not on really.

camerone

frenchfighter wrote:

Sastre is there. Winning isn't all for me as I have said before.

camerone

frenchfighter wrote:

They need to be winning or finishing high up to be respected by me.

frenchfighter

CJ. WTF. I can like who the hell I like and for whatever reason I like. If my logic for liking someone is different to yours, can't you just accept that then get over it?!

It seems to me that many people on this forum are scared to take an opinion or be happy or critical about riders...very bizzare. They are simply content to jump on those people who are.

andyp

Opinions are fine, but to be so blatantly one eyed and misinformed means you'll get pulled up. Deal with it.

frenchfighter

andyp wrote:

Opinions are fine, but to be so blatantly one eyed and misinformed means you'll get pulled up. Deal with it.

Can you explain how you think I am mis-informed?....

andyp

I'd recommend you read some of your previous postings.

frenchfighter

I guess you can nail it down to the following.

Who would you rather like or have more respect for:

Rider A. Rides from early on and wins, no soft pedalling, great attacks then turns up to the GTs and wins.

Rider B. Maybe rides from early on, doesn't win anything, doesn't finish high up on position, turns up to a GT and maybe gets Top5.

To me the answer is abundantly clear.

frenchfighter

andyp wrote:

I'd recommend you read some of your previous postings.

If you make an accusation you should be able to point it out. It is not for me to do.

disgruntledgoat

frenchfighter wrote:

I guess you can nail it down to the following.

Who would you rather like or have more respect for:

Rider A. Rides from early on and wins, no soft pedalling, great attacks then turns up to the GTs and wins.

Rider B. Maybe rides from early on, doesn't win anything, doesn't finish high up on position, turns up to a GT and maybe gets Top5.

To me the answer is abundantly clear.

But what if I find Rider A dull as ditchwater with a naff, gimmicky celebration and some dodgy, unsatisfactorally explained, previous associations?

Likewise, what if I like suspense and drama in my races and don't wish them to be a procession? When was the last time a proper GC contender took a punt on attacking before the final climb? Ullrich on the Tourmalet in 2003?

Kléber

It's not black and white, some of us are just pointing out that Contador does not race very much. Perhaps I am being old school but the Spaniard only raced 54 days in the year, that's not the way of a true champion, it's the style of calculator.

Even Armstrong, famous for his focus on July, plus a broken collarbone, notched 61 days.

frenchfighter

I'm not saying Contador races loads, just that when he does he goes hard and wins often. I prefer quality over quantity.

DaveyL

Kléber wrote:

It's not black and white, some of us are just pointing out that Contador does not race very much. Perhaps I am being old school but the Spaniard only raced 54 days in the year, that's not the way of a true champion, it's the style of calculator.

Even Armstrong, famous for his focus on July, plus a broken collarbone, notched 61 days.

And a calculator from the Saiz production line, no less. Nuff said.

disgruntledgoat

frenchfighter wrote:

I'm not saying Contador races loads, just that when he does he goes hard and wins often. I prefer quality over quantity.

But it's a luxury he can afford to have, isn't it? He's the undisputed leader of that team and the reigning Tour champioon, as well as the world's preeminant GT rider. He can pick and choose his races.

Lets say out of those 54 days he raced last year 33 of them weren't at the tour. Of those, I'm going to guess that 25% of them were hard stages or TTs, he's a much greater scope for winning one GT a year and 15 other races than a guy who rides for a smaller team who need to either compete to get an invite to the Tour or have other objectives and need to send their best riders there. Those guys need to save themselves, knowing they wont have an 8 month holiday come the 1st of August.

frenchfighter

disgruntledgoat wrote:

But what if I find Rider A dull as ditchwater with a naff, gimmicky celebration and some dodgy, unsatisfactorally explained, previous associations?

Likewise, what if I like suspense and drama in my races and don't wish them to be a procession? When was the last time a proper GC contender took a punt on attacking before the final climb? Ullrich on the Tourmalet in 2003?

That's fine if you think that. I am not one to tell you who or what to like. I respect people have other opinions which may differ to mine and have no problem with that. I don't go around telling them they should think differently.

As for suspence etc...so I'm guessing you don't like the Cannibal Merckx. Or the other Greats who could and would demolish their opponents.

As for taking a punt from far out. You are aware that Contador attacks from very far out. Check his stage wins and see how many times he arrived solo and how far out he attacked from. Then compare that to other riders who attack in the last km or 2. Do you remember when he attacked from 100km out in Paris Nice? He was 2nd on that stage.

andyp

frenchfighter wrote:

I'm not saying Contador races loads, just that when he does he goes hard and wins often. I prefer quality over quantity.

Unlike your posts then?

As Kléber says, it's not black and white and, unless you have access to information that the rest of us don't have, you have no idea why Wiggins finished where he did yesterday. He could, for example, have been working for his team mates. I don't know, you don't know so to come out with ridiculous statements like your first one on this thread makes you look stupid.

RichN95.

frenchfighter wrote:

I guess you can nail it down to the following.

Who would you rather like or have more respect for:

Rider A. Rides from early on and wins, no soft pedalling, great attacks then turns up to the GTs and wins.

Rider B. Maybe rides from early on, doesn't win anything, doesn't finish high up on position, turns up to a GT and maybe gets Top5.

To me the answer is abundantly clear.

I have a lot of respect for anyone who can even finish a GT, let alone come top 5. Also let's see what happens in the season before having a go at someone for their performance in a pre-season friendly.

While there's obviously more to cycling than the Tour, it is by far the most important race. Especially to most sponsors, and they're paying the wages not you or I. It's crucial to be in top form in July. No rider is the same in what they need to do to get there.

Also cycling's a team sport and it's good for team morale to let other riders ride for themselves once in a while rather than having one 'champion' hogging all the races. Having said that, it would be nice to see Contador start a one day race once in a while.

frenchfighter

Thanks Andy for calling me stupid. That doesn't make you look too good,

Note in my first post, I had a 'why'

If someone had said he crashed or had a serious mechanical then I would have said: ok that figures. No one has though.

camerone

Working for teammates?!?!?! NOT the behaviour of a true champion ffs. you have to work for someone elses dodgy team to buy another team support for a race in case your classmates gang up on you, thats the behaviour of a true champion

calvjones

frenchfighter wrote:

I guess you can nail it down to the following.

Who would you rather like or have more respect for:

Rider A. Rides from early on and wins, no soft pedalling, great attacks then turns up to the GTs and wins.

Rider B. Maybe rides from early on, doesn't win anything, doesn't finish high up on position, turns up to a GT and maybe gets Top5.

To me the answer is abundantly clear.

I guess its the difference between having less respect for non-flair riders or no respect at all which is what your earlier post said. I think;

-Wiggo comes across as a bit of a tool
-Valv and LA shouldn't be riding at all
-LA is a scary, bullying sociopath
-Pip is the bee's knees

...but they all are succeeding in staying at the top of the tree in possibly the world's hardest sport, so deserve some Kudos. In fact, winning stuff *at all* whilst not having AC's natural advantages and probable (former?) pharmacological backup is worth more Kudos than the flair thing. e.g. Evans.

andyp

frenchfighter wrote:

Quite Frankly wrote:

Wiggins finished 7.21 down.

WTF! Why? That is super lightweight. A long way for him to go before he can start playing with the big boys.

Just thought I'd requote this.

frenchfighter

RichN95 wrote:

it would be nice to see Contador start a one day race once in a while.

Yes I would like to see him do that too as I have said many times.

FYI he rode Fleche and Liege in 07 and 06.

camerone

frenchfighter wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

it would be nice to see Contador start a one day race once in a while.

Yes I would like to see him do that too as I have said many times.

FYI he rode Fleche and Liege in 07 and 06.

i assume he won those 4 races with a dashing and daring attacking display?

The Prodigy

andyp wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

Quite Frankly wrote:

Wiggins finished 7.21 down.

WTF! Why? That is super lightweight. A long way for him to go before he can start playing with the big boys.

Just thought I'd requote this.

In the case of the top GC men aren't they little? I guess playing with little boys could cause all sorts of trouble though.

If Wiggo won this weekend and then went on to come 50th in the tour he would be a massive failure. If he does nothing at this time of year and rides into 4th again in July its mission accomplished.

Why some people are making massive judgements about lots of riders and teams at this point in the season is totally beyond me. Almost every race report thread has had a go at someone or other for a rubbish performance

The brunt of the criticism is at the door of Sky and their riders. I bet they are really fretting about how badly things have gone so far!

frenchfighter

The Prodigy wrote:

Why some people are making massive judgements about lots of riders and teams at this point in the season is totally beyond me.

I am not making judgement about his form in July from one stage at all. Just that it is very surprising that he came so far down.

Also it is perfectly possible that you can do well in July AND in early season. They are not mutually exclusive, just hard and so if they are done those riders deserve more respect.

blazing_saddles

frenchfighter wrote:

I'm not saying Contador races loads, just that when he does he goes hard and wins often. I prefer quality over quantity.

So why don't you like Armstrong, then?
Contador quite clearly respects and follows his racing schedule.
A few early season outings.
Rest and recuperation.
Back for the Dauphine, nearing peak form.
Feet up after the Tour.

Wiggins isn't charging up mountains in February, as he is expected to ride 40 days of Grand Tours, come May and July.
We all know where Bertie will be in May.

FransJacques

Put down the handbags ladies. Not all pros have the same ease to get to their best form at all times:

Certainly for Contador, he's naturally light and a natural climber. He's NOT the kind of guy to come 7:21 down in his first race b/c he won't fall as far below his peak. This is mainly down to natural physiology.

Wiggo isn't a natural climber (yet). He must make greater sacrifices to get to Contador's level and can only do so for 1 month a year. Doesn't mean he can't optimize his engine to beat Contador, just expect his performance curve to be steeper over the season whereas AC's is flatter.

Don't draw too many conclusions at this point in the season. Pointless as many good posts have said.