Coming here giving us jobs!

markyboy2005

Heckler1974 wrote:

rake wrote:

how do vegetarians have crediblity. if we were all vegetarian there would be massive food shortages, not enough land to grow the food. far more expensive to cultivate.

It's the gas and general air of smugness I couldn't stand.

One thing that gets me....

If you invite people round for dinner you always cater for potential vegetarians with a veggie dish or two.....if you you go round to a vegetarians for dinner, they never have a steak or pork dish just in case there are carnivores coming.....

bloody selfish I tell ya!

DonDaddyD

Halal meat

Part of the process is draining the animal of its blood, so they essentially slit the animals thoat. This is deemed 'not nice' by the nay-sayers and 'cruel' but to my knowledge it isn't illegal in the EU or UK. - If it were how is hunting Game not considered animal cruelty? There is no guarantee that the animal hasn't suffered or died slow. Equally the quality and cleanliness standards of Halal meat is often higher than many battery farms found in the EU.

Moreover, there is nothing that states that the animal cannot be stunned first, as long as the stunning doesn't inadvertenly kill the animal (which can happen).

Just my 2 pence.

rake

i never noticed . re vegetarians. someone posted before me.

Westerberg

rake wrote:

how do vegetarians have crediblity.

in the context of this argument, more than you IF they've chosen to forego meat based on it's production being barbaric.

if we were all vegetarian there would be massive food shortages, not enough land to grow the food. far more expensive to cultivate.

Source please?

PBo

rake wrote:

how do vegetarians have crediblity. if we were all vegetarian there would be massive food shortages, not enough land to grow the food. far more expensive to cultivate.

the livestock that consume current crops, feed far less people than those same crops would directly...as well as taking huge amounts of water, and contributing to greenhouse gases...10 to 1 in worst case of beef.

markyboy2005

DonDaddyD wrote:

Halal meat

Part of the process is draining the animal of its blood, so they essentially slit the animals thoat. This is deemed 'not nice' by the nay-sayers and 'cruel' but to my knowledge it isn't illegal in the EU or UK. - If it were how is hunting Game not considered animal cruelty? There is no guarantee that the animal hasn't suffered or died slow. Equally the quality and cleanliness standards of Halal meat is often higher than many battery farms found in the EU.

Moreover, there is nothing that states that the animal cannot be stunned first, as long as the stunning doesn't inadvertenly kill the animal (which can happen).

Just my 2 pence.

I have also been told by Muslims that their method of butchering reduces the amount of blood left in the red meat which is somehow healthier.

Also as the method is less of a mass butchering than western methods there is a closer association between the raising, feeding, butchering of the meat for consumption which in their eyes means the eating of meat is a privilege they work towards rather than an expectation (frozen meat at tesco's by the kilo load).

This may be true in the places where people still kill their own food, but in the OP it was talking about jobs for 3000 people to produce Halal meat, so not sure how relevant that is.

At Rake - are you sure its illegal as I just don't see it?

rake

the source was the wright show a while ago, im not a farmer and dont know if any of you are, they had a debate about vegetarianism and the comment was made by more than one person from the farming industry.

softlad

I reckon my fiver is pretty safe.....

Westerberg

rake wrote:

the source was the wright show

ah, in that case, it must be true :roll:

a while ago, im not a farmer and dont know if any of you are, they had a debate about vegetarianism and the comment was made by more than one person from the farming industry.

ah I see, so an independent, objective study then!

blackpanther

Westerberg wrote:

rake wrote:

the source was the wright show

ah, in that case, it must be true :roll:

a while ago, im not a farmer and dont know if any of you are, they had a debate about vegetarianism and the comment was made by more than one person from the farming industry.

ah I see, so an independent, objective study then!

Westerberg did you eat the mad ones then?

rake

no. but i tend to respect farmers themselves notice such things about land usage and costs.
independant studies set the fair price for a litre of milk based on cost to produce yet dairy farms are giving up because the ends dont meet.

blorg

Heckler1974 wrote:

Kosher and Halal are similar methods of dispatch with a single cut with a very sharp knife but Halal in the stricter fatwas can only be performed by a Muslim who invokes the name of Allah before performing the cut (or dedicates the animal to Allah, I can't recall which).

Shechita also has to be performed by a Jew for the meat to be Kashrut/Kosher. As you say it's a very similar process, to the extent that some Muslims will consider Kosher meat to be also Halal. This goes for many other Kosher food products too, particularly in areas where halal foods are not so readily available... with obvious exceptions for things like alcohol.

The animal has to be conscious, not just alive, so stunning is forbidden. This goes for both Islam and Judaism. There are EU regulations requiring stunning but there are explicit exceptions for "cultural traditions and religious rites." Nonetheless, some countries have banned slaughter without stunning. It is however legal in the UK, far from being banned I believe there is explicit legislation that protects both the Jewish and Islamic forms.

Westerberg

markwalker wrote:

Westerberg did you eat the mad ones then?

mark, your humour is especially cutting and on the ball today. Have you considered a career in comedy? A word of warning though, you seem to be getting a little over exuberant already - wouldn't want that to be misconstrued as cockiness now! After all, you were banned only 3 days ago

rake

so its not really coming here and giving us 3000 jobs then.
it descriminates and only jews or muslims can work there. equality in action.
my religious beliefs say if i see something nice i can take it. will i be exempt from stealing then?

DonDaddyD

markyboy2005 wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Halal meat

Part of the process is draining the animal of its blood, so they essentially slit the animals thoat. This is deemed 'not nice' by the nay-sayers and 'cruel' but to my knowledge it isn't illegal in the EU or UK. - If it were how is hunting Game not considered animal cruelty? There is no guarantee that the animal hasn't suffered or died slow. Equally the quality and cleanliness standards of Halal meat is often higher than many battery farms found in the EU.

Moreover, there is nothing that states that the animal cannot be stunned first, as long as the stunning doesn't inadvertenly kill the animal (which can happen).

Just my 2 pence.

I have also been told by Muslims that their method of butchering reduces the amount of blood left in the red meat which is somehow healthier.

Also as the method is less of a mass butchering than western methods there is a closer association between the raising, feeding, butchering of the meat for consumption which in their eyes means the eating of meat is a privilege they work towards rather than an expectation (frozen meat at tesco's by the kilo load).

This may be true in the places where people still kill their own food, but in the OP it was talking about jobs for 3000 people to produce Halal meat, so not sure how relevant that is.

At Rake - are you sure its illegal as I just don't see it?

Very true, my post was meant to focus on the fact that a factory following halal practices can exist in the EU.

I'm not trying to discuss which is better.

rake

never mind that its snowing again.

Heckler1974

rake wrote:

so its not really coming here and giving us 3000 jobs then.
it descriminates and only jews or muslims can work there. equality in action.
my religious beliefs say if i see something nice i can take it. will i be exempt from stealing then?

If it's Halal then potentially any 'People of the book' (i.e. Christians or Jews) or Muslims could do the job so long as they invoke Allah, it all depends like most things in religion on how strictly you apply the rules and which rules you apply.

blackpanther

rake wrote:

never mind that its snowing again.

its just tooo much

PBo

rake wrote:

so its not really coming here and giving us 3000 jobs then.
it descriminates and only jews or muslims can work there. equality in action.
my religious beliefs say if i see something nice i can take it. will i be exempt from stealing then?

well, subject to the usual fudge on how many jobs it really is, yes it really is!

there are plenty pf jewish/muslim british born people, who could take the jobs, so they are giving some of 'us' jobs - if you mean UK.

do you believe that having a job as a catholic priest is discriminating?

rake

yes. all religion is. thats why its no way to run a country.

blackpanther

rake wrote:

yes. all religion is. thats why its no way to run a country.

all religions are not dicriminatory but the practice is they are.

8)

Porgy

rake wrote:

how do vegetarians have crediblity. if we were all vegetarian there would be massive food shortages, not enough land to grow the food. far more expensive to cultivate.

how do you work that one out? It takes a lot more land to rear animals than to grow plants

PBo

blackpanther wrote:

rake wrote:

yes. all religion is. thats why its no way to run a country.

all religions are not dicriminatory but the practice is they are.

8)

i agree - but in the big scheme of 20 million jobs, the number resricted to religious jobs is probably quite small.....and a price we pay for living in a society that allows religious freedom.

I would imagine that even in secular countries - (two examples where the core religion is probably different US and Turkey), still have some sort of allowances in place for work that can only be done by specific religions....

But It is a complex area, because as you intimated, rake, where do you draw the line....?

Pross

markyboy2005 wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Halal meat

Part of the process is draining the animal of its blood, so they essentially slit the animals thoat. This is deemed 'not nice' by the nay-sayers and 'cruel' but to my knowledge it isn't illegal in the EU or UK. - If it were how is hunting Game not considered animal cruelty? There is no guarantee that the animal hasn't suffered or died slow. Equally the quality and cleanliness standards of Halal meat is often higher than many battery farms found in the EU.

Moreover, there is nothing that states that the animal cannot be stunned first, as long as the stunning doesn't inadvertenly kill the animal (which can happen).

Just my 2 pence.

I have also been told by Muslims that their method of butchering reduces the amount of blood left in the red meat which is somehow healthier.

Also as the method is less of a mass butchering than western methods there is a closer association between the raising, feeding, butchering of the meat for consumption which in their eyes means the eating of meat is a privilege they work towards rather than an expectation (frozen meat at tesco's by the kilo load).

This may be true in the places where people still kill their own food, but in the OP it was talking about jobs for 3000 people to produce Halal meat, so not sure how relevant that is.

At Rake - are you sure its illegal as I just don't see it?

The article explains that the plans include far more than just the slaughtering facilities.

so its not really coming here and giving us 3000 jobs then.
it descriminates and only jews or muslims can work there. equality in action.
my religious beliefs say if i see something nice i can take it. will i be exempt from stealing then?

Have another read of the article and specifically this bit

“There will be opportunities for both Muslims and non-Muslims to work with the business park: ice cream producers, abattoir workers, free range poultry farmers, anyone synonymous with organic agriculture will benefit.”

Or alternatively keep making assumptions that suit your point of view instead

markyboy2005

Pross wrote:

markyboy2005 wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Halal meat

Part of the process is draining the animal of its blood, so they essentially slit the animals thoat. This is deemed 'not nice' by the nay-sayers and 'cruel' but to my knowledge it isn't illegal in the EU or UK. - If it were how is hunting Game not considered animal cruelty? There is no guarantee that the animal hasn't suffered or died slow. Equally the quality and cleanliness standards of Halal meat is often higher than many battery farms found in the EU.

Moreover, there is nothing that states that the animal cannot be stunned first, as long as the stunning doesn't inadvertenly kill the animal (which can happen).

Just my 2 pence.

I have also been told by Muslims that their method of butchering reduces the amount of blood left in the red meat which is somehow healthier.

Also as the method is less of a mass butchering than western methods there is a closer association between the raising, feeding, butchering of the meat for consumption which in their eyes means the eating of meat is a privilege they work towards rather than an expectation (frozen meat at tesco's by the kilo load).

This may be true in the places where people still kill their own food, but in the OP it was talking about jobs for 3000 people to produce Halal meat, so not sure how relevant that is.

At Rake - are you sure its illegal as I just don't see it?

The article explains that the plans include far more than just the slaughtering facilities.

so its not really coming here and giving us 3000 jobs then.
it descriminates and only jews or muslims can work there. equality in action.
my religious beliefs say if i see something nice i can take it. will i be exempt from stealing then?

Have another read of the article and specifically this bit

“There will be opportunities for both Muslims and non-Muslims to work with the business park: ice cream producers, abattoir workers, free range poultry farmers, anyone synonymous with organic agriculture will benefit.”

Or alternatively keep making assumptions that suit your point of view instead

Hi Pross,

I wasn't really questioning the jobs thing as such, just discussing and asking questions about whether the feedback I had from Muslims on the process was still relevant when we are discussing a Halal processing plant vs a tradition as my friends had described it.

I personally have no objection to the slaughtering of animals in this way as long as it is within the law (which is why I was asking Rake again if he was sure the law was just being changed for this plant). I do think if it was illegal to do this then it would certainly be wrong to change the law for this plant, however from other feedback it seems to be that the "it's illegal" line may not actually be correct.

I think the argument that it is discrimination as only Jews or Muslims could work there is a bit weak, so not agreeing with that angle.

Hope that clears things up a bit.

Pross

To be honest the slaughtering technique is pretty much the same it is for veal from what I've read. This is obviously overlooked by some groups who want to use it to back up their "cruel foreigner" arguments rather than a genuine animal welfare concern.

Can't really comment on the mass butchering but I'm sure some form of mass slaughter must take place when feeding the people in large cities in Muslim countries, they can't all have home raised meat supplies.

keef66

There's plenty of land to support food production should we all become vegetarians, but not if we insist on "organic" production.

You sure it wasn't the organic lot being panned for being unsustainable?

pedylan

Has anyone actually toured a slaughter house? I work in the agriculture and food industry and have been in sheep, pig, chicken and cattle slaughter facilities.

In "conventional" slaughter of all these animals death is by blood loss from a throat cut. Before having their throat cut animals are stunned either by electric shock or, in the case of large animals, by shooting in the head with a captive bolt.

Halal slaughter does not permit the use of stunning. All other details are identical and death is by blood loss.

Slaughter houses are very, very unpleasant places. Everyone I know who has toured them has described them as stressful, intimidating, noisy, messy and smelly industrial scale places of work.

The administering of the stun makes little difference to this pandemonium and if scientific analysis of animal brain wave activity is considered, no difference to the pain and distress actually undergone by the animal.

IMHO therefore there are no grounds to distinguish (discriminate?) between Halal or conventional slaughtering. Each is as good or as bad as the other.

Oh and I've been a vegetarian for 20 years so those advancing the spurious food production based arguments above can bring them on as well :twisted:

passout

I agree that Halal is regular slaughter probably aren't too different from each other.

Pross

Also, anyone against "barbaric" practices presumably don't eat fish. After all trawlers just dump their catch on deck and leave them to suffocate rather than clubbing them instantly like an angler (generally) would.