Can't stop eating? Wtf.
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Sorry Will - this is not a dig at you at all. I think the majority of us are not students, have a reasonable amount of disposable income and don't necessarily remember/know what it's like to have to count every last pound and make it last.
I know being a student with little ££ is tough. (These days being employed with little ££ is tough!)
But I guess you have it a little harder than most.
Just know that there are trade-offs to your style of fueling up. It may be cheap - but it isn't healthy and you may suffer for it compared to someone that can use a better strategy to fuel themselves on long rides (and recover better from them afterwards).0 -
freehub wrote:Mars bars are 31P each (In multipack from Tesco)
I eat when I feel I want to eat, I feel if I was trying to eat something every 30mins I'd be forcing it down me.
I'd hope 1 mule bar would last me for ages, like the duration of a 70 mile hilly.
Before rides I usually have a cup of coffee and a bowl of porridge or maybe fruit and nut.
Have you tried cereal bars instead? There's usually something decent on offer in Tesco/Asda so they work out cheaper than Mars bars.
My favourite are Cadbury brunch bars - normal price is about £1.70 for a box of 6.More problems but still living....0 -
Stick to cafe stop favourites like beans on toast. They give you a gentle release of energy. I couldn't eat fish and chips half way through a ride. Also, as someone pointed out above sugary snacks give you a quick energy burst but then you drop back worse than before as your insulin over-compensates for the blood sugar. Sounds like a classic case of the bonk to me, I've had it enough times due to poor diet on the bike.0
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Right, i'm going to get gunned down now for using the "B word" but, In my fruit shop, I can do you 40 bananas for a quid if you're buying Mars Bars simply because they're the cheapest. Bananas are much better than Mars Bars and they'll all be semi-ripe, providing a good mix of sugars/starch.
+1 about a suppressed apetite on the bike - I always feel like emptying the nearest fridge as soon as I stop riding.0 -
Well I did 65 miles today, I felt good the first 20 odd miles averaging 20mph easilly, but ever bloody bump I come to my HR shoots up into 170's which is odd, normally for example a 3% bump would not make my HR rocket up when keeping a steady 18mph, today it did whilst being slower too. My hill performance sucked aswell, I took a Banana with me, 2 dark chocolate Mars Bars and 2 750ml bottles of Orange Juice, I got through 1 mars bar, 1 banana and 1 bottle of orange juice, but my performance was still crap.
I think at the moment I'm going to put it down to over training, I have had 2 days full recovery since the 120miler but maybe it has not being enough. I'm not going to do any cycling untill Sunday apart from 25 mile round trip on Thursday to get my bike sorted, on Sunday I'll do 20miles on the road and 15 on the trainer.
I know most people don't like Mars Bars, but I've being using them regular since last Christmas and I've not really ran into any problems, I never bonked, it just seems recent that I'm bonking.
I used to also take on my rides those Cadbury Brunch bars, but does one of these bars provide much energy at all? Would taking 4 of them on a ride rather than 2 mars bars turn out better?
http://connect.garmin.com/splits/24832018
Thats what I did today, less climbing than I thought, felt really hard, pretty demotivating and as of late the garmin data is always inaccurate, dunno what's going on with the GPS, must be those flares.
So how effective would flapjack be? I'm not a big fan of the stuff but I'm going to have a go at making my own and trial it, see how cost effective it is too.0 -
sandbag wrote:0.5-1g of carbs can be absorbed(oxidation) per minute,
What you can do is increase the uptake rate of carbs per minute to between 1.3g - 1.7g by taking a 2:1 ratio of glucose to fructose.
Is this not the "normal" rate; i.e. when not riding? When you do hard exercise, I thought the intake shot up through the roof to allow more absorption, hence the infamous "glycogen window" effect etc...0 -
Err no, as I understand it, replacing your glycogen stores and your body's ability to absorb carbs during exercise are two separate things entirely.
I thought the reason you use glycogen is exactly because your body cannot absorb carbs from the stuff in your stomach at an adequate rate. Typically the limit was said to be approximately 60g of carbs per hour (as Sandbag has said) However, High5 and other energy drink producers say greater absorbtion is achieved by using more than one carb source. Hence the 2:1 ratio maltodextrin / fructose mix they now use (instead of maltodectrin alone). IIRC they say using this mix, absorbtion can be increased to about 80g per hour.
It's for this reason that on longer rides a feeding strategy usually involves fuelling from the off (i.e by meal before hand and by taking carbs on the bike), thereby minimising the extent that you have to call on your glycogen stores from the outset. By the time you "feel" you need to refuel, you've probably gone further without small and often fuelling than you ought to have done.
That's how I understood it anyway
For you Will, you could probably achieve most of that by nothing more than sugary drinks in your bottle and regualr drinking throughout the ride with the odd cereal bar to top up.
I am also interested to know where sells 40 bananas for £1.0 -
Bhima wrote:Right, i'm going to get gunned down now for using the "B word" but, In my fruit shop, I can do you 40 bananas for a quid if you're buying Mars Bars simply because they're the cheapest. Bananas are much better than Mars Bars and they'll all be semi-ripe, providing a good mix of sugars/starch.
+1 about a suppressed apetite on the bike - I always feel like emptying the nearest fridge as soon as I stop riding.
Will 40 bananas fit in a backpack? Can you PM me the location of your fruit shop and the specific times you are in store?
If I had enough space I'd buy 400 bananas off you.
Slow1972, how much sugar should I put in a 750ml bottle of orange juice?0 -
Currently 2 for £1 in TescoSBezza wrote:There is plenty of cheap foods you can take on the bike for a 120 mile ride that are not specialist sports products. I generally use Eat Natural bars, or Trek bars, and eat regularly (even though I don't really like eating on the bike). I will also have a banana or two, and possibly a gel as a backup. I only eat once an hour, and touch wood, I have never bonked on a ride yet.
Little and often is best for a long ride IMO.
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do some glyco depletion sets, egt your body to increase the amount of energy it gets from fat during rides, then woooo, no need to refuel at all. well, nearly...0
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Next time order large chips..0
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One of the pieces of advice I was given by a coach in another sport (archery) was to be careful with food rich in simple carbohydrates (e.g. glucose and sucrose) that are rapidly absorbed. Since glucose syrup and refined sugars are high on the Mars bar ingredient list then woulds might apply.
After eating a glucose rich snack, the body responds by increasing the level of insulin to cope with the rapid increase in glucose level in the blood. The raised insulin level leads to a reduction in blood sugar level, but even in healthy people, can result in slight hypoglycemia before settling back to normal. It 'overshoots' if you like.
So you get a an initial sugar rush - full of energy. Then after the insulin has done it's job, the temporary low blood sugar level can make you feel lethargic. The body will rapidly recover, but the effect can be felt. I guess it's fair to say that when the body is stressed under exercise, the low may be felt more dramatically. So it may explain why the OP struggle on some sections of his route.
So foods that give a more sustained release/uptake of carbohydrate are better.
I'm relatively new to cycling (and haven't eaten a Mars bar in years!) , so can't say I've experienced this effect when cycling. But I've certainly felt the effect when competing in archery and I've sneaked a piece of chocolate cake and then struggled with concentration and stamina for a short while.0 -
onlyonearrow wrote:One of the pieces of advice I was given by a coach in another sport (archery) was to be careful with food rich in simple carbohydrates (e.g. glucose and sucrose) that are rapidly absorbed. Since glucose syrup and refined sugars are high on the Mars bar ingredient list then woulds might apply.
After eating a glucose rich snack, the body responds by increasing the level of insulin to cope with the rapid increase in glucose level in the blood. The raised insulin level leads to a reduction in blood sugar level, but even in healthy people, can result in slight hypoglycemia before settling back to normal. It 'overshoots' if you like.
So you get a an initial sugar rush - full of energy. Then after the insulin has done it's job, the temporary low blood sugar level can make you feel lethargic. The body will rapidly recover, but the effect can be felt. I guess it's fair to say that when the body is stressed under exercise, the low may be felt more dramatically. So it may explain why the OP struggle on some sections of his route.
So foods that give a more sustained release/uptake of carbohydrate are better.
I'm relatively new to cycling (and haven't eaten a Mars bar in years!) , so can't say I've experienced this effect when cycling. But I've certainly felt the effect when competing in archery and I've sneaked a piece of chocolate cake and then struggled with concentration and stamina for a short while.
Is archery a sport?
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SheffSimon wrote:Is archery a sport?
Remember an arrow travels at over 200 feet per second - faster than you can cycle! 0 -
onlyonearrow wrote:One of the pieces of advice I was given by a coach in another sport (archery) was to be careful with food rich in simple carbohydrates (e.g. glucose and sucrose) that are rapidly absorbed. Since glucose syrup and refined sugars are high on the Mars bar ingredient list then woulds might apply.
After eating a glucose rich snack, the body responds by increasing the level of insulin to cope with the rapid increase in glucose level in the blood. The raised insulin level leads to a reduction in blood sugar level, but even in healthy people, can result in slight hypoglycemia before settling back to normal. It 'overshoots' if you like.
So you get a an initial sugar rush - full of energy. Then after the insulin has done it's job, the temporary low blood sugar level can make you feel lethargic. The body will rapidly recover, but the effect can be felt. I guess it's fair to say that when the body is stressed under exercise, the low may be felt more dramatically. So it may explain why the OP struggle on some sections of his route.
So foods that give a more sustained release/uptake of carbohydrate are better.
I'm relatively new to cycling (and haven't eaten a Mars bar in years!) , so can't say I've experienced this effect when cycling. But I've certainly felt the effect when competing in archery and I've sneaked a piece of chocolate cake and then struggled with concentration and stamina for a short while.
Isn't there some kind of hormonal/insuline response during exercise that eradicates the spike/slump when eating something sugary? If you've watched a GT stage, the amount of cans of coke some riders get through there must be some sound reasoning behind it?"A cyclist has nothing to lose but his chain"
PTP Runner Up 20150 -
Mr Shocked - yes if you eat sugary stuff your body will use as much as it can directly - the insulin response is more of a storage response - your body prefers to have carefully controlled levelsof blood sugar/glucose - insulin 'packs it away' . When you eat carbs during exercise the glucose is used directly - tho' obviously if you gorged 20 mars bars you'd have to store some (or throw up?)0
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Will,
Personally I would ignore the archery advice. The whole point is you do want to absorb the carbs quickly, not slowly because your body will be using all that it is absorbing (and more besides from glycogen stores) during hard exercise . No point having slow absorbed carbs when you need it there and then is there? Different obviously if you're only chugging along.
But you don't need the fat content of the mars bars (or other higher fat cereal bars / muesli bars etc).
If you look at commercially available sports drinks using fructose / maltodextrin they recommend approximately 60-80g per 750ml bottle. BUT they make their money by selling it to you so they will recommend using a lot. So (and this is only my personal experience) if you assume your body can absorb 60g carbs per hour, you aren't going to top up with other food as well, and you drink a bottle an hour, then 60g of carbs per bottle would seem a sensible level. If you have say a cereal bar as well or you aren't riding as hard, then I tend to drop the concentration. So on club runs and lower effort rides I may only have 20 - 40g carbs per bottle (and none at all for shorter rides). If I'm racing and using a 2:1 maltodextrin/fructose mix I may up that to 80g athough I can't say it is definitely necessary (but I've not bonked in a race or during a long hard ride using this sort of fuelling strategy).
If you are making your own. Buy a fruit squash see how much sugar there is per measure and add to your bottle, make up the difference with fructose which you can buy from supermarkets.
Otherwise, buy the raw ingredients of maltodextrin and fructose from somewhere like myprotein.co.uk which is miles cheaper than buying SIS / High5 etc and flavour with squash.
It's all down to personal preference though, I'm happy on hard rides to take all my carbs via my bottle without taking in much solid foods. On steadier rides I drop the concentration and eat more solids (with a mix of simple and complex carbs) as maximising absorbtion isn't quite so critical as you're not in as much deficit between what your body is absorbing and consuming.
There's a lot of cr@p spouted on these forums about fuelling (and my tuppeneth probably adds to that) so I would suggest trying to do a bit more reading of some articles about it. I'm a Wheeler, I'll find a few links and pm them to you later in the week via the club forum and you can have a read of them so you can try and make your own mind up.0 -
Thanks, this is all super confusing, I never realised you could buy fructose from the supermarket?? I've never really looked for it.0
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Yep, look for it with the other sugars. Smaller bags of 250g usually, it's less sweet tasting than normal sugar but more expensive. Normal sugar will still work though if you're on a budget and can stomach the sweeter taste of your drink.0
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Mr Slow1972,
I think by concentrating on liquid carbohyrdate fuelling as you suggest, then you may be more likely to sustain your blood sugar level during exercise and I suspect you will be more likely to take regular and 'measured' liquid intake. It's easier to drink on the move than try to unwrap a Mars bar
So you aren't overloading with carbs by drinking in the same way you might by eating a Mars bar in one go.
I know the two sports are very different, but I think the key is in sustaining the required carbohydrate level rather than having spikes and the associated troughs.
My comments were trying to say (probably badly), that a balance of fast and slow release carbohydrates in a food would be better to sustain carbohydrate levels.
I think you are acheiving the same control through liquid drinking, that may not as be readily achieved through solid fueling during exercise.
Is it a case of little and often? (And I use little in a relative sense here = plenty for fast cycling ). 0 -
Sorry Onlyone, didnt mean to come across dismissive. I just think there's a distinction to be made between exercise when your body is burning more carbs than it can absorb and when it is not. When it's the latter I agree that lower GI, complex carbs make perfect sense to me (and why I revert to solids using low fat, oat based home made cereal bars with lower concentration in my bottle for steadier rides, as I get a slower release and no spiking).
When it's the former, my view (and I've made it clear it is only my view, I'm no nutritionist) is that there is no "spike" because your carb's absorbtion is maxing out anyway.
But yes, I find on-bike fuelling via the bottle easier than via bars with wrappers etc. So you don't overload as you say. Although as I say I don't think you actually overload as at high intensity your absorbtion is at its max rate anyway, the excess just passes or waits to be absorbed when the body has capacity to do so. But essentially I look at it that you can throw as much carb down your neck as you like, but you can only process so much. So I choose to aim to put enough down to ensure that when i'm working hard there's enough available to keep absorbtion levels high throughout but no more as it's just wasted (and when you stop this is where the insulin response issues will, I suspect, kick in to deal with that excess) that's why there's no point imho increasing carbs concentration in your bottle so you go beyond 60 - 80g per hour (dep on the mix you use)
and yes, as with hydration, I find a little and often throughout works best for me. If I'm going to be taking a drink regularly I may as well put the fuel in there as well so it doesnt get missed out either.0 -
ShockedSoShocked wrote:
Isn't there some kind of hormonal/insuline response during exercise that eradicates the spike/slump when eating something sugary? If you've watched a GT stage, the amount of cans of coke some riders get through there must be some sound reasoning behind it?
Insulin promotes glucose storage and is countered by glucagon (and other hormones) which promote glycogen breakdown. Theres's a lot of complicated biochemistry here, including glucagon increasing insulin production so that some cells in the body can take up the extra glucose released. :?
This would make you think otherwise about coke:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8056028.stm0 -
Slow1972 wrote:Yep, look for it with the other sugars. Smaller bags of 250g usually, it's less sweet tasting than normal sugar but more expensive. Normal sugar will still work though if you're on a budget and can stomach the sweeter taste of your drink.
So I measure 60-80G of normal sugar and add that to a bottle of water or juice? And providing I drink this regular, say 1 an hour, I should be pretty fuled up?0 -
In a nutshell, yes. But if you are adding it to say a fruit squash which already has sugar in it you can reduce the amount you top up by.
For example. If you put 50ml of squash (for the flavour) in your bottle and that has 10g of sugar in it (work it out from the contents panel on the label). You'd only need to put say 50g of sugar in to have 60g overall.
But as I've said, if you are eating as well or are riding at a steadier pace, you probably wouldnt need to put that much in. Save that sort of level for higher intensity longer rides or racing.
I'd try experimenting with the levels and see what works for you.0 -
onlyonearrow wrote:SheffSimon wrote:Is archery a sport?
Remember an arrow travels at over 200 feet per second - faster than you can cycle!
I'm pretty quick you know.0 -
Slow1972 wrote:In a nutshell, yes. But if you are adding it to say a fruit squash which already has sugar in it you can reduce the amount you top up by.
For example. If you put 50ml of squash (for the flavour) in your bottle and that has 10g of sugar in it (work it out from the contents panel on the label). You'd only need to put say 50g of sugar in to have 60g overall.
But as I've said, if you are eating as well or are riding at a steadier pace, you probably wouldnt need to put that much in. Save that sort of level for higher intensity longer rides or racing.
I'd try experimenting with the levels and see what works for you.
Never tried it, but I'd have thought that fruit juice with 50g of added sugar would taste sickly sweet?More problems but still living....0 -
Now you know why I bought so much honey! It's a great blend of glucost and fructose.
(I'll get in touch regarding bananas soon Will)0 -
Yes I agree, I think that's another reason why fructose and/or maltodextrin is used in the energy drinks. It's not as sweet.
http://www.myprotein.co.uk/bulk-powders ... todextrin/
I use maltodextrin and fructose mixed 2:1 and just flavour with fruit squash. But. if Will is trying to come up with something cheaper he's going to just have to see what he can live with and normal sugar is as cheap as it gets.0 -
OK, Bananas - Occasionally, there will be an odd banana that makes customers question the consistency of the bunch, such as an extra ripe one, or one that has a slight split in the peel etc. These are rounded up and sold in another box, cheap, yet there's nothing wrong with them. 11p/pound is the going rate, which is about 25-35 for a quid. This is half the price of most other fruit shops for the 2nd class bananas.
Due to the unpredictable nature of the bananas, this box is not always available to customers, but with my staff discount, I could always grab 40 or so on any day of the week and pay a quid for them. Thus, 400 are not available to buy at one time and this would not be a desirable situation anyway, due to the extreme ripeness of some of them. I only ever buy 15 or so at a time.
If you want the location of the shop, PM me.
Despite my banana addiction and a super cheap supply of them, i'm seriously considering that maltodextrin link above. That is cheap! :shock:0 -
Slow1972 wrote:Yes I agree, I think that's another reason why fructose and/or maltodextrin is used in the energy drinks. It's not as sweet.
http://www.myprotein.co.uk/bulk-powders ... todextrin/
I use maltodextrin and fructose mixed 2:1 and just flavour with fruit squash. But. if Will is trying to come up with something cheaper he's going to just have to see what he can live with and normal sugar is as cheap as it gets.
How long would a 5kg tub last for?0
