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Symptoms of an overly downward pointing saddle ?

JimmyKJimmyK Posts: 712
edited February 2010 in Training, fitness and health
I bought 9 inch workmans spirit level today to check how i had set up my saddle , which I had done by eye. The height and fore/aft positions are fine , but the level setting shocked me somewhat . I saw a tech on a clip use a small spirit level and a hard back book to do the levelling, so that is what i did.

My saddle is a charge spoon by the way. Before I say anything else, can you outline typical symptoms of using a saddle that is overly pointing downwards ? I know thats what the weemin do, but I had experiences of using it that way for a bloke :D
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  • Slow DowncpSlow Downcp Posts: 3,041
    Pain between your sack and crack, as you're leaning on the soft tissue in instead of sitting on your ar5e.

    Also, possible neck ache as your arms will be supporting your weight and keep pushing yourself back as you slide forwards.
    Carlsberg don't make cycle clothing, but if they did it would probably still not be as good as Assos
  • softladsoftlad Posts: 3,513
    check the level of the floor before you check the level of the saddle, otherwise the saddle reading will be meaningless...
  • sampras38sampras38 Posts: 1,917
    Jimmy, I have a Charge Spoon on my winter/turbo bike and leveled it with a level application on my ipod. I stuck a large book covering the whole saddle and put the level smack in the middle. The saddle dips slightly in the middle but it was close enough for me and now much more comfortable than beforehand.

    Can I ask, if you were to leave a bike on a turbo permanently, would you level the saddle before you clip it in, or flat on the floor?
  • Barrie_GBarrie_G Posts: 479
    sampras38 wrote:
    Can I ask, if you were to leave a bike on a turbo permanently, would you level the saddle before you clip it in, or flat on the floor?

    I would level the saddle when the bike was on the floor, as you want the saddle in the correct position in relation to the bike, not the turbo.
  • sampras38sampras38 Posts: 1,917
    Barrie_G wrote:
    sampras38 wrote:
    Can I ask, if you were to leave a bike on a turbo permanently, would you level the saddle before you clip it in, or flat on the floor?

    I would level the saddle when the bike was on the floor, as you want the saddle in the correct position in relation to the bike, not the turbo.

    That was my thinking too.

    cheers
  • dennisndennisn Posts: 10,601
    Barrie_G wrote:
    sampras38 wrote:
    Can I ask, if you were to leave a bike on a turbo permanently, would you level the saddle before you clip it in, or flat on the floor?

    I would level the saddle when the bike was on the floor, as you want the saddle in the correct position in relation to the bike, not the turbo.

    I'm going to vote for just the opposite. When the bike is on the trainer there is the possibility that the whole bike may be slightly tilted as opposed to being level on level ground. If you set the saddle level on level ground then set it on the trainer and the trainer doesn't quite hold the bike level then the seat will be tilted.
  • DaSyDaSy Posts: 599
    The main problem is the fact that you put more weight on your hands to keep you in position. This can often cause pain and pins and needles in you palms, plus possible pain in the lower back trying to keep yourself in the correct position on the saddle.

    With regard to the bike on a turbo, as said before, level the saddle to the bike, and then chock the front wheel to get the bike in a comfortable position when mounted on the turbo.

    Finally the point about checking the level of the floor is a very good one, it took me a lot of messing about with saddle position before I realised the bit of floor I always used was out of level!
    Complicating matters since 1965
  • amaferangaamaferanga Posts: 6,789
    You also need to account for the fact that when you sit on your bike the rear will drop slightly. I've never used a spirit level to get my seat right as trial and error has always got there pretty quickly.

    Its not clear to me why dead level is necessarily best for every rider/saddle combination anyway.
    More problems but still living....
  • DaSyDaSy Posts: 599
    amaferanga wrote:
    Its not clear to me why dead level is necessarily best for every rider/saddle combination anyway.

    I think it's just a good place to start that is easily repeatable. You can tilt back or front from there with trial and error as you put in the miles, but at least you have a consistent start point.
    Complicating matters since 1965
  • sampras38sampras38 Posts: 1,917
    amaferanga wrote:
    You also need to account for the fact that when you sit on your bike the rear will drop slightly. I've never used a spirit level to get my seat right as trial and error has always got there pretty quickly.

    Its not clear to me why dead level is necessarily best for every rider/saddle combination anyway.

    I think the general rule is dead level will be a good place to start. Then move ever so slightly one way or the other to suit. I think the majority of riders (if they don't have it level), will have it eeevvver so slightly pointed upwards, bit not high that it puts too much pressure. Having it tilted downwards just makes you put more weight on the bars.
  • rakerake Posts: 3,204
    but surely tilting downwards put more weight on your sit bones and less on the crotch and censored .
  • dennisndennisn Posts: 10,601
    rake wrote:
    but surely tilting downwards put more weight on your sit bones and less on the crotch and censored .

    Tilting the front down will cause you to have more pressure on your arms and chest muscles because you will start sliding forward off the saddle. Convention thinking is that
    this is wrong because it uses energy that you wouldn't use if your saddle was level, or slightly nose up, as you would be actually sitting ON(nose level or up) the saddle instead of trying to hold yourself on it with arms and chest.
  • JimmyKJimmyK Posts: 712
    strange thing i found after using a saddle that was pointing downwards, or so my spirit level told me, was that every time i went out for a ride , when i got off the bike, my inner upper left thigh was very sore and i definitely had muscular pain as a result.

    i had no pain around the ging gang goolies but i definitely did the sliding forward thing.
  • dennisndennisn Posts: 10,601
    JimmyK wrote:
    strange thing i found after using a saddle that was pointing downwards, or so my spirit level told me, was that every time i went out for a ride , when i got off the bike, my inner upper left thigh was very sore and i definitely had muscular pain as a result.

    i had no pain around the ging gang goolies but i definitely did the sliding forward thing.

    I'll bet your arms were also very tired. Takes a lot of energy to keep yourself from sliding off the saddle. Whereas letting most of your weight rest ON the saddle(nose level or up)
    takes a lot of strain OFF the arms.
  • rakerake Posts: 3,204
    but isnt it no good for the nerves in your crotch.id rater have sore hands.
  • sandbagsandbag Posts: 429
    Forget about the dead level saddle rule. You do what's comfortable to you!

    A level saddle can still bring you nasty pain on the perineal. Better to have a tiny pressure on shoulders and hands and allievate perineal pain.

    If the nose tilts up, even slightly, it can press into the perineum. A saddle tilted down to an excessive degree will causes you to slide forward to the point that the "sits bones" no longer support your pelvis - and the nose of the saddle again presses on the perineum.

    The ideal is a tiny tilt, just a few degrees nose down from horizontal.
  • softladsoftlad Posts: 3,513
    sandbag wrote:

    The ideal is a tiny tilt, just a few degrees nose down from horizontal.

    for you - maybe.
  • Celeste08Celeste08 Posts: 1
    Rake, I originally had similar thoughts to you to save the soft tissue, but it is a case of getting the balance right. Taking pressure off one area entirely will put extra pressure elsewhere & create new problems. The amount of pressure on the perineum & sit bones needs to be fine tuned by fitting your whole bike correctly for your body.

    I struggled to get my saddle position right as my hands & arms supported more weight than needed. After a thorough bike fitting session it was found that my handlebar stem was too long & too low for my built. Trying to correct that with saddle tilt alone was not the way to solve the issue.
  • normanpnormanp Posts: 279
    I gently tipped the nose of the saddle down so that I sit in the bones with almost no pressure on the perineum. This is perfect for the road and I don't get hand strain. However on the turbo (with the front wheel chocked up) I do get hand strain - probably due to the static position - but I can put up with this as I don't get numb nuts on the road!
  • sandbagsandbag Posts: 429
    softlad wrote:
    sandbag wrote:

    The ideal is a tiny tilt, just a few degrees nose down from horizontal.

    for you - maybe.

    At the moment, I'm still experimenting with my new saddle. But that is a general solution to reliving the perineal problem allitle more. It that or get a saddle that is comfier or with a channel cutout.
  • dennisndennisn Posts: 10,601
    sandbag wrote:
    softlad wrote:
    sandbag wrote:

    The ideal is a tiny tilt, just a few degrees nose down from horizontal.

    for you - maybe.

    At the moment, I'm still experimenting with my new saddle. But that is a general solution to reliving the perineal problem allitle more. It that or get a saddle that is comfier or with a channel cutout.

    If a comfier saddle, or cutout, was available why wouldn't you use it? :? :?
  • JimmyKJimmyK Posts: 712
    some have compared the gel saddles and cut outs ideologies to snake oil , that is , if you believe they work...........then good for you. does anybody not buy the gel or cutout selling points at all ?
  • sandbagsandbag Posts: 429
    dennisn wrote:
    sandbag wrote:
    softlad wrote:
    sandbag wrote:

    The ideal is a tiny tilt, just a few degrees nose down from horizontal.

    for you - maybe.

    At the moment, I'm still experimenting with my new saddle. But that is a general solution to reliving the perineal problem allitle more. It that or get a saddle that is comfier or with a channel cutout.

    If a comfier saddle, or cutout, was available why wouldn't you use it? :? :?

    Because i have just acquired new bike with new saddle. Fizik Pave Sport. It is too early to change saddle yet, I am perfecting the position in relation to my changed current fitness. After working out the suttle hidden design was possible to tilt the saddle. I decided to try tilting it up a fraction this week. Combined with too high seatpost brought on perineal problem. I lowered it and been getting that feeling my seatpost is too low feeling. But i stuck with it and now more power. So i will get out the spirit level and return it to it's original tilt or try it fractionally tilted down to see. I won't need another saddle if i get it back to how it was, or better. When you play with the height at the same time, it easy to go backwards. That's why i experiment over 2-3 weeks.
  • sandbagsandbag Posts: 429
    edited February 2010
    You see pic, it's my seatpost. Loosening the bolt slides it back and forth. Now it's not obvious you can tilt it up and down is it?

    10synapsepost-700x466.jpg

    Well you can. Those black hollow cups at back are just forced on with tight pressure over bevelled edges. Tightening the bolt forces them on super tight, further still. Loosening the bolt, doesn't loosen the cups, the cups are super unmovable, so i had assumed they were permanently fixed and part of the fixture. They can be pried off from behind and realigned. The mechanic in shop said you need to hit them with a hammer to get them loose :?. A thin flat screwdriver from behind works with no damage.

    Anyways the 2 bolt design is simply better and quicker to adjust.
  • sandbagsandbag Posts: 429
    JimmyK wrote:
    strange thing i found after using a saddle that was pointing downwards, or so my spirit level told me, was that every time i went out for a ride , when i got off the bike, my inner upper left thigh was very sore and i definitely had muscular pain as a result.

    i had no pain around the ging gang goolies but i definitely did the sliding forward thing.

    What can sometimes happen in a bad position is the rails underneath where they protude outwards, exactly strike your bulging thigh. You end up with serious sores. You don't realise and think it's just the side of the saddle front, which is bad enough.
  • sandbagsandbag Posts: 429
    A 'professional competition fit' places emphasis with weight on the hands. It also means more weight is being forced onto the pedals, which is a good thing. The lower position puts more pressure on the neck. So you got it lucky haha.
  • redddraggonredddraggon Posts: 10,862
    Lol he's talking to himself, even the stuff you say is bonkers, you are Giantsasquatch, AICMFP
    I like bikes...

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  • oldwelshmanoldwelshman Posts: 4,733
    dennisn wrote:
    Barrie_G wrote:
    sampras38 wrote:
    Can I ask, if you were to leave a bike on a turbo permanently, would you level the saddle before you clip it in, or flat on the floor?

    I would level the saddle when the bike was on the floor, as you want the saddle in the correct position in relation to the bike, not the turbo.

    I'm going to vote for just the opposite. When the bike is on the trainer there is the possibility that the whole bike may be slightly tilted as opposed to being level on level ground. If you set the saddle level on level ground then set it on the trainer and the trainer doesn't quite hold the bike level then the seat will be tilted.

    So what would you do for climbs on the road then? :D
    http://s290.photobucket.com/albums/ll245/oldwelshman/
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aK5Bfqj5fxY
  • sandbagsandbag Posts: 429
    edited February 2010
    redddraggon wrote:
    Lol he's talking to himself, even the stuff you say is bonkers, you are Giantsasquatch, AICMFP

    What are you talking about and which bit? I am responding to what was said about pressure on the hands from other users a few posts back. Just because i didn't quote the original message. When i said you got it lucky, i am saying you are all more comfy than peleton riders with there very aggresive fit. What is so bonkers?
  • sandbagsandbag Posts: 429
    edited February 2010
    JimmyK wrote:
    some have compared the gel saddles and cut outs ideologies to snake oil , that is , if you believe they work...........then good for you. does anybody not buy the gel or cutout selling points at all ?

    Perenial vein pain is due to contact with the saddle in that area. If you remove that contact area with the saddle, then you stop the pain. So how is it snake oil?

    Proof in point: Stand up on the bike = No pain

    More padding, gel can equal more pain. A firm place to support the seat bones can be best.

    pelvis_xray.jpg
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