Torture

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  • Crankmeister
    Crankmeister Posts: 274
    IM signing out on this thread as ive been totally miss understood.enjoy your onesided views
    good day.
  • hopper1
    hopper1 Posts: 4,389
    northernneil wrote:
    hopper1 wrote:
    DaSy wrote:
    My wife made me go to the cinema once to watch Sliding Doors!

    I think that it was legal on her part, but hardly in the spirit of the Geneva Convention.

    I feel your pain Chip...

    Ha!... My wife bought that on VHS!!! I'm still reeling from it's affect! :shock:

    I presume the shock of VHS and not DVD

    Had it have been on DVD I wouldn't have been subjected to it as many times as I have! :roll:
    Start with a budget, finish with a mortgage!
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    hopper1 wrote:
    northernneil wrote:
    hopper1 wrote:
    DaSy wrote:
    My wife made me go to the cinema once to watch Sliding Doors!

    I think that it was legal on her part, but hardly in the spirit of the Geneva Convention.

    I feel your pain Chip...

    Ha!... My wife bought that on VHS!!! I'm still reeling from it's affect! :shock:

    I presume the shock of VHS and not DVD

    Had it have been on DVD I wouldn't have been subjected to it as many times as I have! :roll:

    Thats nothing. I had to take my 6 year old daughter and 2 friends to see the "Lil Bratz" movie at the cinema. :cry:
  • teagar
    teagar Posts: 2,100
    markwalker wrote:
    teagar wrote:
    markwalker wrote:
    teagar wrote:
    I'd amit to anything if it would save me from some of the torture methods I've read of.

    Is that justice and gaining information?

    Thing is Teagar we all would so good information gathering would look to confirm the veracity of an information source. cross referencing where possible or practical. i imagine the fear wouldnt go away one the lying had been exposed.

    :roll:

    Why not skip the whole torture thing and just do the good information gathering?

    Or would that also involve torture? But wait, wouldn't they also admit to anything?

    What if they honestly don't know anything? The damage is already done for no benefit.


    Theoretical nicety doesnt always transition practically to the real world does it.

    So how does it work in the real world, since you're adamant that my particular example can only occur in theory?
    Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.
  • clanton
    clanton Posts: 1,289
    edited February 2010
    dmclite wrote:

    Crankmeister aside, he is just a WUM, ignore him.

    The bold text above.
    What torture methods did they use ?
    What is "mass torture"?
    How did you find out about this torture ?

    Also you might find that you contradicted yourself in your last post.

    Waterboarding, sleep deprivation, humiliation, being chained in unomfortable positions for hours on end in your own excrement, left naked in the cold.....

    All of these have been reported in the media. "Mass" torture is doing it to 600 people at a time.
  • clanton
    clanton Posts: 1,289
    edited February 2010
    Edit: double post
  • softlad
    softlad Posts: 3,513
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    Very good... what else?

    churches.. ;)
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    softlad wrote:
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    Very good... what else?

    churches.. ;)

    Cider!
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    teagar wrote:
    It's never the case that torturing one man will save lots of lives.

    I diagree. I've seen a man tortured to give up infomation about enemy positions, weapons placement, weapons storage, and it all turned out to be true.
    How did that NOT save lives?????
  • teagar
    teagar Posts: 2,100
    dennisn wrote:
    teagar wrote:
    It's never the case that torturing one man will save lots of lives.

    I diagree. I've seen a man tortured to give up infomation about enemy positions, weapons placement, weapons storage, and it all turned out to be true.
    How did that NOT save lives?????

    So what did you do with the knowledge about the enemy positions? Send an ambulance?

    I'm surprised you're comfortable witnessing torture.
    Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.
  • DaSy
    DaSy Posts: 599
    hopper1 wrote:
    Had it have been on DVD I wouldn't have been subjected to it as many times as I have! :roll:


    Sweet Jesus..the inhumanity of it!

    My wife is very partial to a good old RomCom, they unfortunately take away just a little part of my will to live with each and every one.

    Oh, and bye then Crankmeister, it was an education.
    Complicating matters since 1965
  • clanton
    clanton Posts: 1,289
    dennisn wrote:
    teagar wrote:
    It's never the case that torturing one man will save lots of lives.

    I diagree. I've seen a man tortured to give up infomation about enemy positions, weapons placement, weapons storage, and it all turned out to be true.
    How did that NOT save lives?????

    Jesus. Every heard of the Geneva Convention?
  • teagar
    teagar Posts: 2,100
    clanton wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    teagar wrote:
    It's never the case that torturing one man will save lots of lives.

    I diagree. I've seen a man tortured to give up infomation about enemy positions, weapons placement, weapons storage, and it all turned out to be true.
    How did that NOT save lives?????

    Jesus. Every heard of the Geneva Convention?

    That thought just crossed my mind!
    Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    clanton wrote:
    dmclite wrote:

    Crankmeister aside, he is just a WUM, ignore him.

    The bold text above.
    What torture methods did they use ?
    What is "mass torture"?
    How did you find out about this torture ?

    Also you might find that you contradicted yourself in your last post.

    Waterboarding, sleep deprivation, humiliation, being chained in unomfortable positions for hours on end in your own excrement, left naked in the cold.....

    All of these have been reported in the media. "Mass" torture is doing it to 600 people at a time.

    The media also write about jordan, John terry etc. The editor of the mirror was sacked for falsifying evidence, you believe EVERYTHING about the media or do you just pick and choose what suits your argument best ?
  • teagar
    teagar Posts: 2,100
    No need to look to other countries, the UK is complicit in the use of torture.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/fe ... orture-mi5
    of the country's most senior judges found that the Security Service had failed to respect human rights, deliberately misled parliament, and had a "culture of suppression" that undermined government assurances about its conduct.

    As for Dmc - some papers have better reputations for telling the truth than others. I'd suggest those papers who are keen on writing about Jordan and Terry probably don't have that reputaiton, but, similarly, they're not the ones investigating whether torture has occured.
    Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.
  • Porgy
    Porgy Posts: 4,525
    edited February 2010
    DaSy wrote:
    My wife made me go to the cinema once to watch Sliding Doors!
    ...

    So did mine, but she has apologised since....and I've stopped bringing it up as mitigation for a cock up on my part.

    Regarding torture - every intelligence officer or former IO I've seen interviewed reckons it doesn't work as a way of acquiring evidence, and doesn't want powers to torture. it actually interferes with tried and test methods that do work - gaining trust of prisoner etc.

    The 24 scenario - bomb planted etc has never happened and probably never will. it's not a realistic example to use when arguing this issue. Besides, any terrorist committed to their cause will probably be willing to be tortured to death for their cause and utlimately die.

    Finally - where the policy of torture for intelligence has been applied by the US military - against the advice of US intellgence - it has proved to be an unmitigated distaster. Innocent people will give any sort of false information to end their torture. See a documentary called "Taxi to the Dark side" which weighs up the evidence and comes down firmly against torture in any circumstances.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    teagar wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    teagar wrote:
    It's never the case that torturing one man will save lots of lives.

    I diagree. I've seen a man tortured to give up infomation about enemy positions, weapons placement, weapons storage, and it all turned out to be true.
    How did that NOT save lives?????

    So what did you do with the knowledge about the enemy positions? Send an ambulance?

    I'm surprised you're comfortable witnessing torture.

    Teagar, you can't assume he was comfortable with what he witnessed, but for that time, place and situation it was vital.

    Make a decision, stand up for what you believe and act. Idle rhetoric plays into idle hands and they make the devils work.........
  • clanton
    clanton Posts: 1,289
    No Dmdclite - I don't believe anything I read and I don't read the Mirror. Not all sources are equally unreliable though and amongst others Time magazine has "exposed" torture at Gitmo. What's more a number of world leaders inlcuing Tony Blair, Angela Merckel and Barack Obama have spoken out against what foes on there.

    Comparing that to gossip is simply foolish.
  • teagar
    teagar Posts: 2,100
    dmclite wrote:
    teagar wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    teagar wrote:
    It's never the case that torturing one man will save lots of lives.

    I diagree. I've seen a man tortured to give up infomation about enemy positions, weapons placement, weapons storage, and it all turned out to be true.
    How did that NOT save lives?????

    So what did you do with the knowledge about the enemy positions? Send an ambulance?

    I'm surprised you're comfortable witnessing torture.

    Teagar, you can't assume he was comfortable with what he witnessed, but for that time, place and situation it was vital.

    Make a decision, stand up for what you believe and act. Idle rhetoric plays into idle hands and they make the devils work.........
    Similarly you can't assume it's vital. :wink:
    Anyway, isn't it illegal to torture?
    Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.
  • DaSy
    DaSy Posts: 599
    dmclite wrote:
    Make a decision, stand up for what you believe and act. Idle rhetoric plays into idle hands and they make the devils work.........

    Which in turn makes Sliding Doors and Miss Congeniality 2.
    Complicating matters since 1965
  • northernneil
    northernneil Posts: 1,549
    I quite enjoyed sliding doors :oops:
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    teagar wrote:
    dmclite wrote:
    teagar wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    teagar wrote:
    It's never the case that torturing one man will save lots of lives.

    I diagree. I've seen a man tortured to give up infomation about enemy positions, weapons placement, weapons storage, and it all turned out to be true.
    How did that NOT save lives?????

    So what did you do with the knowledge about the enemy positions? Send an ambulance?

    I'm surprised you're comfortable witnessing torture.

    Teagar, you can't assume he was comfortable with what he witnessed, but for that time, place and situation it was vital.

    Make a decision, stand up for what you believe and act. Idle rhetoric plays into idle hands and they make the devils work.........
    Similarly you can't assume it's vital. :wink:
    Anyway, isn't it illegal to torture?


    The words, Enemy positions and Weapons placements are always vital to a soldier facing them. Of this I have experience and speak from experience, it is absolute.

    Its illegal to torture, but its also illegal to speed in a car, who stays below 70 mph on a motorway. Ok, the context is different, the stakes are higher but it is morality we are talking about, some are comfortable with that morality, some struggle with it.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    clanton wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    teagar wrote:
    It's never the case that torturing one man will save lots of lives.

    I diagree. I've seen a man tortured to give up infomation about enemy positions, weapons placement, weapons storage, and it all turned out to be true.
    How did that NOT save lives?????

    Jesus. Every heard of the Geneva Convention?

    Jesus, you ever been to a warzone, let alone served in one ?
  • teagar
    teagar Posts: 2,100
    dmclite wrote:
    teagar wrote:
    dmclite wrote:
    teagar wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    teagar wrote:
    It's never the case that torturing one man will save lots of lives.

    I diagree. I've seen a man tortured to give up infomation about enemy positions, weapons placement, weapons storage, and it all turned out to be true.
    How did that NOT save lives?????

    So what did you do with the knowledge about the enemy positions? Send an ambulance?

    I'm surprised you're comfortable witnessing torture.

    Teagar, you can't assume he was comfortable with what he witnessed, but for that time, place and situation it was vital.

    Make a decision, stand up for what you believe and act. Idle rhetoric plays into idle hands and they make the devils work.........
    Similarly you can't assume it's vital. :wink:
    Anyway, isn't it illegal to torture?


    The words, Enemy positions and Weapons placements are always vital to a soldier facing them. Of this I have experience and speak from experience, it is absolute.

    If we're taking that approach, then, similarly, given the guy is defending torture, he must be comfortable with it on some level, surely?

    That speeding analogy is absurd to say the least.
    Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.
  • DaSy
    DaSy Posts: 599
    dmclite wrote:
    Jesus, you ever been to a warzone, let alone served in one ?

    I would have thought that as an (ex?) soldier, you would have been grateful for the existence of the Geneva Convention. Many captured during wartime may well owe their lives to it.
    Complicating matters since 1965
  • clanton
    clanton Posts: 1,289
    dmclite wrote:
    clanton wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    teagar wrote:
    It's never the case that torturing one man will save lots of lives.

    I diagree. I've seen a man tortured to give up infomation about enemy positions, weapons placement, weapons storage, and it all turned out to be true.
    How did that NOT save lives?????

    Jesus. Every heard of the Geneva Convention?

    Jesus, you ever been to a warzone, let alone served in one ?

    Not relevant. Being in a war situation does NOT justify any or all means.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    DaSy wrote:
    dmclite wrote:
    Jesus, you ever been to a warzone, let alone served in one ?

    I would have thought that as an (ex?) soldier, you would have been grateful for the existence of the Geneva Convention. Many captured during wartime may well owe their lives to it.

    I suppose so in a really general term. Thing is I don't believe Iraq ever signed up to the convention, so when I was out there in 1991 and 2003 if we got caught we'd be in the 5hit anyway, torture and beatings and probable execution would have taken place. the guerillas in Angola in 1995 when I was out there didn't sign up to the convention either. I'm not sure about the Balkan States but some evil stuff was perpetrated by all sides in that conflict. Also I don't believe the PIRA in Ireland signed up to the convention either and we faced them too. It becomes a moot point when the enemy you face doesn't play by the rules.
  • teagar
    teagar Posts: 2,100
    dmclite wrote:
    DaSy wrote:
    dmclite wrote:
    Jesus, you ever been to a warzone, let alone served in one ?

    I would have thought that as an (ex?) soldier, you would have been grateful for the existence of the Geneva Convention. Many captured during wartime may well owe their lives to it.

    I suppose so in a really general term. Thing is I don't believe Iraq ever signed up to the convention, so when I was out there in 1991 and 2003 if we got caught we'd be in the 5hit anyway, torture and beatings and probable execution would have taken place. the guerillas in Angola in 1995 when I was out there didn't sign up to the convention either. I'm not sure about the Balkan States but some evil stuff was perpetrated by all sides in that conflict. Also I don't believe the PIRA in Ireland signed up to the convention either and we faced them too. It becomes a moot point when the enemy you face doesn't play by the rules.
    :o

    Why d'ya think forces went into Iraq? Because the gov't treated their people so well? Or because they torture them, abused them, and killed them?
    That's decidedly worrying logic. Especially if that is representative of other soliders' opinions. Very worrying.

    Edit: Surely you'd save lives by having a rep for being kind to PoWs? They'd be much quicker to surrender, knowing they'd be treated well - rather than fighting to the bitter end in fear of torture?
    Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.
  • clanton
    clanton Posts: 1,289
    dmclite wrote:
    It becomes a moot point when the enemy you face doesn't play by the rules.

    I don't agree. I am fully aware that "the enemy" may not always obey the Geneva Convention and that is exactly why it is so important that WE do - it is what distinguishes us from terrorists - sometimes the ONLY thing.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    teagar wrote:
    dmclite wrote:
    teagar wrote:
    dmclite wrote:
    teagar wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    teagar wrote:
    It's never the case that torturing one man will save lots of lives.

    I diagree. I've seen a man tortured to give up infomation about enemy positions, weapons placement, weapons storage, and it all turned out to be true.
    How did that NOT save lives?????

    So what did you do with the knowledge about the enemy positions? Send an ambulance?

    I'm surprised you're comfortable witnessing torture.

    Teagar, you can't assume he was comfortable with what he witnessed, but for that time, place and situation it was vital.

    Make a decision, stand up for what you believe and act. Idle rhetoric plays into idle hands and they make the devils work.........
    Similarly you can't assume it's vital. :wink:
    Anyway, isn't it illegal to torture?


    The words, Enemy positions and Weapons placements are always vital to a soldier facing them. Of this I have experience and speak from experience, it is absolute.

    If we're taking that approach, then, similarly, given the guy is defending torture, he must be comfortable with it on some level, surely?

    That speeding analogy is absurd to say the least.

    How can an illegal act be absurd when the legality is questioned ?. Is one just a "teeny weeny bit illegal" or another a bit more illegal. To paraphrase some old writer, "All crimes are equal, but some are more equal than others".

    I think we may be going down old paths here Teagar, don't need to got there again. I think we have entirely different outlooks on this subject, you have given me insights that I would not have considered before, but our different standpoints are very clear.
    No more from me, to you on this subject, much more pleasant talking about mutual music ?

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