Torture

bails87

Frank the tank wrote:

Mind you, in the case of someone who's prepared to blow themselves up (let's assume you have the right man, for sake of argument) why should he be bothered about being tortured?

Because being tortured hurts. I'd imagine that clicking a button and being vapourised almost instantly doesn't.

The "if it was your family on the line you'd do it" people might be right. But if it was your family then I wouldn't think it was justified. If it was a bunch of random people in Timbuktoo then I wouldn't say it was justified.. Don't let your emotions and views on protecting your family cloud your judgement on what it's right or wrong for the state to do.

So called 'ticking bomb' situations simply don't happen in real life.

If you think someone has been involved in planting a bomb, then how do you know that what they tell you under torture is true? They give a fake confession, the pain stops and they get their aim of blowing people up. As has been mentioned with Menezes, the police were convinced he was guilty, all their intelligence at the time pointed towards it. But what if he'd been suspected of planting a car bomb, rather than being a suicide bomber, he wouldn't have been shot. But would it have been right to drag him off and torture him?

The 'war on terror' is an excuse for people to get scared, to be 'terrorised' if you will

How many succesful terror attacks have there been in Britain lately. Not many, how many were perpatrated by people who were caught by the police and were in custody when the bomb went off? None. So torture wouldn't, as far as we know, have saved a single life.

Anonymous

Is bombing targets in civilian areas by a countrys air force inflicting torture ?
Are we guilty to a degree by democratically voting in government which wages wars?
Are we guilty by association when the SIS "question" terror suspects ?

I think if can answer yes to one of these questions than we all who voted or live in the UK have a burden of responsibility for the actions of our Governments, good and bad.

I knew one of the security fellas who was captured and executed in Iraq last year, an ex army colleague. If I was his family and torturing a terrorist to get intelligence for his freedom was an option, I'd do it. Cannot imagine what he went through before he died, and he was protecting a Christian Aid charity set up, BTW.

markwalker

youre from the west midlands bails87 its my understanding that a significant contribution to taliban forces has been from uk born and bred men from the west midlands and that information gained overseas has resulted in many local police operations. Perhasp thats one of the reasons why there havent been many succesful terror attacks in the UK?

And its always someones son daughter mother father brother etc so in many ways it is justified. unless you think that youre a special case ( not you in particular of course) i.e. absoloutley not unless its my family were talking about here.

Thats the hypocritical thing about it, its easy to condem torture but id be the first to advocate it if it would save my family and so would most right thinking people the world over. its human. and right.

teagar

I'd amit to anything if it would save me from some of the torture methods I've read of.

Is that justice and gaining information?

disgruntledgoat

markwalker wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

I think people who believe intellegence/secret services of all nations don't have "torture" of one sort or another as a tool in the locker are living in cloud cuckoo land.

I would think the art of good methods of torture are the methods that leave no physical scarring, it's harder to prove it's taken place whereby mental scarring is always going to be subject to medical opinion.

If the secret services have a suspect in for questioning and he just sits there in silence or giving it "no comment" how do you get them to talk. Mind you, in the case of someone who's prepared to blow themselves up (let's assume you have the right man, for sake of argument) why should he be bothered about being tortured?

Well blowing yourself up is in your control (sometimes) and they know its over before its begun.

Torture is far more difficult and people crack, end of thats the way it is. But i agree totally that most countries security services would use or turn a blind eye to torture. clearly the British Govt does.

Actually i dont want to know the details but im very glad some others do it to make me and my family safe,

So is it ok for Israeli security folks to torture the family of a suspected suicide bomber to find out where he intends to blow himself up?

What about vice versa? The Palistinian Authority to torture a captured solider of the IDF to find out where their offensive will strike?

Or American soldiers to torture an Iraqi to find out where his suspected colleagues planted thier roadside bombs?

Or vice versa again, for one of the Iranian backed private armies in Iraq to torture British or American soliders to find out where their colleagues are being held or which village is next to be searched for weapons?

Once you satart down a path, it's very difficult to draw lines. DO you think a British life is worth more than other nationalities? Which ones? Why?

For me, the Magna Carta made indefinite imprisonment without charge and torture to extract confessions illegal. Who am I to argue with the foundation of common law?

markwalker

teagar wrote:

I'd amit to anything if it would save me from some of the torture methods I've read of.

Is that justice and gaining information?

Thing is Teagar we all would so good information gathering would look to confirm the veracity of an information source. cross referencing where possible or practical. i imagine the fear wouldnt go away one the lying had been exposed.

Anonymous

teagar wrote:

I'd amit to anything if it would save me from some of the torture methods I've read of.

Is that justice and gaining information?

Common sense, that is. If you have been captured then its going to be a bad day anyway. I'd sing like an X Factor finalist if I thought I could avoid pain through torture.

Heckler1974

markwalker wrote:

Thats the hypocritical thing about it, its easy to condem torture but id be the first to advocate it if it would save my family and so would most right thinking people the world over. its human. and right.

I think most of us would do anything to save our family, that's not really the point. What makes us any better than the people we point the finger at as barbaric terrorists if we advocate torture as justifiable.

How far does that argument go, how far can we morally go to protect ourselves? Why don't we just nuke every country we perceive as a threat just to be sure, could save tens of lives over the next few decades for the cost of millions of barbarians, that's justifiable surely?

markwalker

disgruntledgoat wrote:

markwalker wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

I think people who believe intellegence/secret services of all nations don't have "torture" of one sort or another as a tool in the locker are living in cloud cuckoo land.

I would think the art of good methods of torture are the methods that leave no physical scarring, it's harder to prove it's taken place whereby mental scarring is always going to be subject to medical opinion.

If the secret services have a suspect in for questioning and he just sits there in silence or giving it "no comment" how do you get them to talk. Mind you, in the case of someone who's prepared to blow themselves up (let's assume you have the right man, for sake of argument) why should he be bothered about being tortured?

Well blowing yourself up is in your control (sometimes) and they know its over before its begun.

Torture is far more difficult and people crack, end of thats the way it is. But i agree totally that most countries security services would use or turn a blind eye to torture. clearly the British Govt does.

Actually i dont want to know the details but im very glad some others do it to make me and my family safe,

So is it ok for Israeli security folks to torture the family of a suspected suicide bomber to find out where he intends to blow himself up?

What about vice versa? The Palistinian Authority to torture a captured solider of the IDF to find out where their offensive will strike?

Or American soldiers to torture an Iraqi to find out where his suspected colleagues planted thier roadside bombs?

Or vice versa again, for one of the Iranian backed private armies in Iraq to torture British or American soliders to find out where their colleagues are being held or which village is next to be searched for weapons?

Once you satart down a path, it's very difficult to draw lines. DO you think a British life is worth more than other nationalities? Which ones? Why?

For me, the Magna Carta made indefinite imprisonment without charge and torture to extract confessions illegal. Who am I to argue with the foundation of common law?

I imagine that all of the above would or could take place. and whilst i wouldnt want british troops to be tortured it could happen.

I believe all humas are created equal but circumstance of birth makes some more equal than others.

teagar

markwalker wrote:

teagar wrote:

I'd amit to anything if it would save me from some of the torture methods I've read of.

Is that justice and gaining information?

Thing is Teagar we all would so good information gathering would look to confirm the veracity of an information source. cross referencing where possible or practical. i imagine the fear wouldnt go away one the lying had been exposed.

:roll:

Why not skip the whole torture thing and just do the good information gathering?

Or would that also involve torture? But wait, wouldn't they also admit to anything?

What if they honestly don't know anything? The damage is already done for no benefit.

markwalker

Heckler1974 wrote:

markwalker wrote:

Thats the hypocritical thing about it, its easy to condem torture but id be the first to advocate it if it would save my family and so would most right thinking people the world over. its human. and right.

I think most of us would do anything to save our family, that's not really the point. What makes us any better than the people we point the finger at as barbaric terrorists if we advocate torture as justifiable.

How far does that argument go, how far can we morally go to protect ourselves? Why don't we just nuke every country we perceive as a threat just to be sure, could save tens of lives over the next few decades for the cost of millions of barbarians, that's justifiable surely?

Theres a question of context too. lifes not just about theoretical niceties. One of the worlds biggest torturers murderers and paedophiles is the christian church. Not all of it historical either. On the other hand they espouse and promote harmony and virtue globally.

markwalker

teagar wrote:

markwalker wrote:

teagar wrote:

I'd amit to anything if it would save me from some of the torture methods I've read of.

Is that justice and gaining information?

Thing is Teagar we all would so good information gathering would look to confirm the veracity of an information source. cross referencing where possible or practical. i imagine the fear wouldnt go away one the lying had been exposed.

:roll:

Why not skip the whole torture thing and just do the good information gathering?

Or would that also involve torture? But wait, wouldn't they also admit to anything?

What if they honestly don't know anything? The damage is already done for no benefit.

Theoretical nicety doesnt always transition practically to the real world does it.

Heckler1974

markwalker wrote:

Theres a question of context too. lifes not just about theoretical niceties. One of the worlds biggest torturers murderers and paedophiles is the christian church. Not all of it historical either. On the other hand they espouse and promote harmony and virtue globally.

Any religion in it's purest form advocates harmony, just as most ideology advocates utopia as it's end game, unfortunately it's human beings that screw that up.

Nice avoidance of the question by the way.

Anonymous

Heckler1974 wrote:

markwalker wrote:

Theres a question of context too. lifes not just about theoretical niceties. One of the worlds biggest torturers murderers and paedophiles is the christian church. Not all of it historical either. On the other hand they espouse and promote harmony and virtue globally.

Any religion in it's purest form advocates harmony, just as most ideology advocates utopia as it's end game, unfortunately it's human beings that screw that up.

Nice avoidance of the question by the way.

Human nature is a bit flawed, that is so true.

bails87

markwalker wrote:

youre from the west midlands bails87 its my understanding that a significant contribution to taliban forces has been from uk born and bred men from the west midlands and that information gained overseas has resulted in many local police operations. Perhasp thats one of the reasons why there havent been many succesful terror attacks in the UK?

Define 'significant'.

Maybe it is. But how does that justify torture, do we know that the information wouldn't have been gained without torture, if it was used at all? Do we know that the plot wouldn't have attracted attention from UK security services and been stopped that way? Do we know the plots would even have been succesful? A 'local police operation' doesn't mean an imminent bombing, it's usually just for distributing extremist leaflets or something like that.

markwalker wrote:

And its always someones son daughter mother father brother etc so in many ways it is justified. unless you think that youre a special case ( not you in particular of course) i.e. absoloutley not unless its my family were talking about here.

Thats the hypocritical thing about it, its easy to condem torture but id be the first to advocate it if it would save my family and so would most right thinking people the world over. its human. and right.

That's my exact point. Why should it be ok for the state to use torture to protect your family but not mine. Because that's what you're suggesting when you say it would be justified if one of your family was in danger.

What if your child knew someone who had gone mental and started a bombing campaign, and your child genuinely didn't know where that person was, but the police believed he/she did. Would it be alright to torture your child because of the chance to save someone else's life? If you justify torture to protect your family then you have to accept torture to protect other's families.

Crankmeister

disgruntledgoat

umm firstly it's spelt PEOPLE

Secondly, wasn't this thread about torture? You didn't mention it once in that bizarre screed.

Finally.. You daft racist you! Whilst your ramblings are offensive to a lot of people, you do illustrate my argument as to why free speech is important no matter what it's in support of. I hope the mods leave this up there so everybody can see exactly how much of an ignorant bonehead you are.

Heckler1974

It all went downhill after those Normans turned up......

teagar

disgruntledgoat wrote:

umm firstly it's spelt PEOPLE

Secondly, wasn't this thread about torture? You didn't mention it once in that bizarre screed.

Finally.. You daft racist you! Whilst your ramblings are offensive to a lot of people, you do illustrate my argument as to why free speech is important no matter what it's in support of. I hope the mods leave this up there so everybody can see exactly how much of an ignorant bonehead you are.

+1.

Yes.

clanton

Admins please can we ban Crankmeister for racist rants.

Crankmeister

Oh hate me for having breathed in your company.oh great typist.Im hurt
next

clanton

As eloquently demonstrated by various posts and even in those by the pro-torturers it is a slippery slope. If you agree if is ok to torture one person in a specific circumstance it is easier then to extend that to others, and so it spirals. The only solution is to outlaw it completely, which on the face of it is what the British government does.

DaSy

I think we should legalise the torture of Crankmeisters English teachers....

Monkeypump

disgruntledgoat wrote:

umm firstly it's spelt PEOPLE

Secondly, wasn't this thread about torture? You didn't mention it once in that bizarre screed.

Finally.. You daft racist you! Whilst your ramblings are offensive to a lot of people, you do illustrate my argument as to why free speech is important no matter what it's in support of. I hope the mods leave this up there so everybody can see exactly how much of an ignorant bonehead you are.

I think we misunderstood him... he was just teasing and baiting us with his insightful comments.

And we all fell for it... didnt we?

:roll:

markwalker

if Crankmeister lives ini Rossendale or blackburn or burnley he is not the only one worried up there

Jez mon

Crankmeister wrote:

I just casted out a line with some juicy bait on there.To see who would bite.so i could come back latter to laugh yes thats laugh at all those PC peaple who have obiviously left their sense of humour up their MUMMAS A$$...

I bet not one of you PC PEOPLE live near a highly populated area of our darker skinned brothers.Racism just doesnt come from peaple with white skin.
MUSLIMS can live in this country and follow their religion,They even have places to whorship their gods.specific schools for their children etc and so on.

So PC PEOPLE when the last time you visited Jah Hallabad Were you allowed to express yourself as a western worlder?.... You werent because you have to use their dress code and follow their conduct etc and so on..

So PC PEOPLE when did they the peaple in question do that here in Britain and follow our codes and our conduct.They dont GLADLY SOME DO but sadly there are less of that sort here. But as i meantioned those that live in a highly populated area of them will tell you its not easy you cannot give them eye contact just incase of a confrontation...which in course leads to a fist fight .where after youve punched them up and down the road to DEFEND yourself they then go home (not to jah hallabad) but bring there eight brothers,forteen cousins,father and father inlaw to have another go.
I now dont try to give them a glancing nod of acknowledgement like i would a white person.I just keep eyes forward and sod the manners.

Please PC peaple dont hurt my feelings as you all mean so much to me really.and your opinons could and will make me feel so sad and upset..........up ya bum losers

:roll:

Look I'm guessing from that rather bigoted rant that you're pretty proud of your (I'm guessing) White Anglo Saxon heritage. So, PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO GIVE OUR GREAT LANGUAGE THE RESPECT IT DESERVES!!

Or don't, because however well you express yourself I doubt you would ever write anything worth reading....

Now to my sentient point about the matter in hand. Now, it would be great if the fight against terrorism was like some extremely long special of 24, but it isn't, bad guys don't just get caught with just enough time to stop squillions of people dying. Yes, I do realise that some of the methods used by the secret services are slightly savoury. HOWEVER, the mass torture of inmates at Guantanamo Bay and the suchlike is unjustifiable. Even if you don't have moral qualms about torture, the fact is that "information" is likely to be completely incorrect, hurt someone enough and they'll confess to anything, and in situations like Guantananamo any information gained which is correct is probably likely to be out of date anyway.

So to sum up
Torture is ineffective, whether you agree with it or not, and for that reason even those who have no qualms about torturing should think twice before advocating it.

Anonymous

Jez mon wrote:

Crankmeister wrote:

I just casted out a line with some juicy bait on there.To see who would bite.so i could come back latter to laugh yes thats laugh at all those PC peaple who have obiviously left their sense of humour up their MUMMAS A$$...

I bet not one of you PC PEOPLE live near a highly populated area of our darker skinned brothers.Racism just doesnt come from peaple with white skin.
MUSLIMS can live in this country and follow their religion,They even have places to whorship their gods.specific schools for their children etc and so on.

So PC PEOPLE when the last time you visited Jah Hallabad Were you allowed to express yourself as a western worlder?.... You werent because you have to use their dress code and follow their conduct etc and so on..

So PC PEOPLE when did they the peaple in question do that here in Britain and follow our codes and our conduct.They dont GLADLY SOME DO but sadly there are less of that sort here. But as i meantioned those that live in a highly populated area of them will tell you its not easy you cannot give them eye contact just incase of a confrontation...which in course leads to a fist fight .where after youve punched them up and down the road to DEFEND yourself they then go home (not to jah hallabad) but bring there eight brothers,forteen cousins,father and father inlaw to have another go.
I now dont try to give them a glancing nod of acknowledgement like i would a white person.I just keep eyes forward and sod the manners.

Please PC peaple dont hurt my feelings as you all mean so much to me really.and your opinons could and will make me feel so sad and upset..........up ya bum losers

:roll:

Look I'm guessing from that rather bigoted rant that you're pretty proud of your (I'm guessing) White Anglo Saxon heritage. So, PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO GIVE OUR GREAT LANGUAGE THE RESPECT IT DESERVES!!

Or don't, because however well you express yourself I doubt you would ever write anything worth reading....

Now to my sentient point about the matter in hand. Now, it would be great if the fight against terrorism was like some extremely long special of 24, but it isn't, bad guys don't just get caught with just enough time to stop squillions of people dying. Yes, I do realise that some of the methods used by the secret services are slightly savoury. HOWEVER, the mass torture of inmates at Guantanamo Bay and the suchlike is unjustifiable. Even if you don't have moral qualms about torture, the fact is that "information" is likely to be completely incorrect, hurt someone enough and they'll confess to anything, and in situations like Guantananamo any information gained which is correct is probably likely to be out of date anyway.

So to sum up
Torture is ineffective, whether you agree with it or not, and for that reason even those who have no qualms about torturing should think twice before advocating it.

Crankmeister aside, he is just a WUM, ignore him.

The bold text above.
What torture methods did they use ?
What is "mass torture"?
How did you find out about this torture ?

Also you might find that you contradicted yourself in your last post.

Crankmeister

jez thats where youre wrong i have no anglo in me.im not british so whats wrong now!!
so you pick on me for not being able to type or write correctly.your as bad as me.I never claimed i could type well or write the queens english.
.ive learnt to speak british or english and respect their laws now go on call my typing or my intellegence as mentioned come and stay in the north west and SEE with your own eyes...ive never slated your views or your opinions.i also wouldnt single anyone out thats why i used the words PC PEOPLE


So your intellegence told you im british which is soo wrong and also i have been to school and had a so called english teacher which is wrong again.

THE BIG HINT WAS IN THE QUOTE

GLADLY SOME DO........ REREAD POST COLUMBO!!!

OK i might not share your views but im not going to single you out and cry about them.
IVE had racist comments to me but thats just life isnt it no one cn be liked by everyone.
and im ok with that.
so insult me call me what you will but remember you dont know me or the trouble it is just walking into town round here.

hopper1

DaSy wrote:

My wife made me go to the cinema once to watch Sliding Doors!

I think that it was legal on her part, but hardly in the spirit of the Geneva Convention.

I feel your pain Chip...

Ha!... My wife bought that on VHS!!! I'm still reeling from it's affect! :shock:

northernneil

hopper1 wrote:

DaSy wrote:

My wife made me go to the cinema once to watch Sliding Doors!

I think that it was legal on her part, but hardly in the spirit of the Geneva Convention.

I feel your pain Chip...

Ha!... My wife bought that on VHS!!! I'm still reeling from it's affect! :shock:

I presume the shock of VHS and not DVD