Torture

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  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    softlad wrote:
    andrewjoseph wrote:
    Information gained by torture is not reliable. Ask the witches.... oh you can't, they were all killed because they confessed during torture that they were witches so that the torture would stop.

    or sometimes they used the 'ducking stool' - if the accused drowned, she was innocent. But if she survived, she was evidently a witch, and would then be burned alive...


    "But what else floats in water?"
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • softlad
    softlad Posts: 3,513
    disgruntledgoat wrote:


    "But what else floats in water?"

    "a duck".. ;)
  • clanton
    clanton Posts: 1,289
    very small stones?
  • DaSy
    DaSy Posts: 599
    dmclite wrote:
    Yes, torture away.

    You cannot calmly sit at a keyboard, in a comfy chair, sipping a latte and comprehend actions and situations that are beyond the pale.

    Torture for critical intelligence not for evidence.


    Jean Charles de Menezes was a case of the state security services being convinced they knew what was about to happen and summarily executed a person they believed posed a terrorist threat, and we all know how that went.[/quote]
    Complicating matters since 1965
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    softlad wrote:
    disgruntledgoat wrote:


    "But what else floats in water?"

    "a duck".. ;)

    Very good... what else?
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • Heckler1974
    Heckler1974 Posts: 479
    dmclite wrote:
    Read some Kipling and ask yourself "IF".

    Well he does make exceedingly good cakes.
  • markwalker
    markwalker Posts: 953
    DaSy wrote:
    dmclite wrote:
    Yes, torture away.

    You cannot calmly sit at a keyboard, in a comfy chair, sipping a latte and comprehend actions and situations that are beyond the pale.

    Torture for critical intelligence not for evidence.


    Jean Charles de Menezes was a case of the state security services being convinced they knew what was about to happen and summarily executed a person they believed posed a terrorist threat, and we all know how that went.
    [/quote]

    But thats a different kettle of fish isnt it? the op acknowledges that torture is at best unpleasent but asks if torturing one person as party of a process to protect millions is acceptable or another way should one person not be tortured if the outcome would be for millions to die.
    I vote for the waterboard
  • DaSy
    DaSy Posts: 599
    My point was that these forces that are being put forward to carry out this state sanctioned torture are the same ones that, when under stress themselves make decisions that end innocent peoples lives in the name of protecting the masses against terrorism.
    Complicating matters since 1965
  • DaSy
    DaSy Posts: 599
    Is the odd collateral victim okay when, after all they were protecting us from terrorism?
    Complicating matters since 1965
  • clanton
    clanton Posts: 1,289
    Take a look at this:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8509787.stm

    They believed he had information, held him without trial for SEVEN years, tortured him frequently, left him lying in his own excrement for weeks on end and then relased him without charge, having gained NOTHING useful from what is appears was an innocent and now permanently damaged man. Justifiable how exactly?
  • Crankmeister
    Crankmeister Posts: 274
    edited February 2010
    Torture is truely justifiable.
  • markwalker
    markwalker Posts: 953
    DaSy wrote:
    Is the odd collateral victim okay when, after all they were protecting us from terrorism?

    YES
  • Heckler1974
    Heckler1974 Posts: 479
    Crankmeister wrote:
    Torture is truely justifiable.

    what is it with britain today weve gone F##king soft.Their are to many Politically correct preprogrammed bend over and take it up the back box whimps out their.
    IMO their the type of peaple or persons that would gladly bend over and take it dry up the back box of bin ladin himself whilst containing and stiff upperlip.

    And after that insane rant we return you to our usual programming, with some music.....
  • markwalker
    markwalker Posts: 953
    Heckler1974 wrote:
    Crankmeister wrote:
    Torture is truely justifiable.

    what is it with britain today weve gone F##king soft.Their are to many Politically correct preprogrammed bend over and take it up the back box whimps out their.
    IMO their the type of peaple or persons that would gladly bend over and take it dry up the back box of bin ladin himself whilst containing and stiff upperlip.

    And after that insane rant we return you to our usual programming, with some music.....

    He has a point though.
  • DaSy
    DaSy Posts: 599
    With an eloquently put argument like that, I now find myself wavering!
    Complicating matters since 1965
  • clanton
    clanton Posts: 1,289
    Crankmeister wrote:
    Torture is truely justifiable.

    what is it with britain today weve gone F##king soft.Their are to many Politically correct preprogrammed bend over and take it up the back box whimps out their.
    IMO their the type of peaple or persons that would gladly bend over and take it dry up the back box of bin ladin himself whilst containing and stiff upperlip.

    NEWSFLASH
    The MET police found themselfs in alot of bother this morning for boarding a London bus and opening fire.. resulting the death of several flydamite Muslims.
    They were under of Suspicion of bringing small arms into the country.

    No Britain has not "gone soft". When has torture ever been legal in a modern Britain?
  • Heckler1974
    Heckler1974 Posts: 479
    markwalker wrote:
    He has a point though.

    So does a pencil but that doesn't mean I'd sit and listen to one.
  • DaSy
    DaSy Posts: 599
    markwalker wrote:
    Heckler1974 wrote:
    Crankmeister wrote:
    Torture is truely justifiable.

    what is it with britain today weve gone F##king soft.Their are to many Politically correct preprogrammed bend over and take it up the back box whimps out their.
    IMO their the type of peaple or persons that would gladly bend over and take it dry up the back box of bin ladin himself whilst containing and stiff upperlip.

    And after that insane rant we return you to our usual programming, with some music.....

    He has a point though.

    I don't think he does, or at least not one I could understand.
    Complicating matters since 1965
  • markwalker
    markwalker Posts: 953
    Heckler1974 wrote:
    markwalker wrote:
    He has a point though.

    So does a pencil but that doesn't mean I'd sit and listen to one.

    Funny youre wife said she preferred pencils to you becasue they did have a point..... Ka ching heckle no more! :)
  • Heckler1974
    Heckler1974 Posts: 479
    markwalker wrote:
    Funny youre wife said she preferred pencils to you becasue they did have a point..... Ka ching heckle no more! :)

    .........sounds of audience clearing throat.......tumble weed rolls across stage.
  • Jez mon
    Jez mon Posts: 3,809
    edited February 2010
    markwalker wrote:
    Heckler1974 wrote:
    Crankmeister wrote:
    Torture is truely justifiable.

    what is it with britain today weve gone F##king soft.Their are to many Politically correct preprogrammed bend over and take it up the back box whimps out their.
    IMO their the type of peaple or persons that would gladly bend over and take it dry up the back box of bin ladin himself whilst containing and stiff upperlip.

    And after that insane rant we return you to our usual programming, with some music.....

    He has a point though.

    No he doesn't he's just buying into stupid rhetoric about terrorism.

    Going soft, would be not travelling on the tube because of a few nutjobs

    Going soft, would be selling out all our freedoms and values because of said nutjobs

    Going soft, is not standing up for what you believe in, which in this case is that torture is exactly the kind of barbarism that makes extremist behaviour so abhorrent.

    Or to take a slightly more pragmatic view, torture doesn't work well anyway (not to mention the fact that it scars both the torturee and the torturer) and takes away any moral mandate we might feel we have, to lecture other parts of the world which have poor human rights records.
    You live and learn. At any rate, you live
  • Westerberg
    Westerberg Posts: 652
    markwalker/ crankmeister - same person? surely there can't be two such small minded, semi-literate blow hards frequenting the Cake Stop in such a short space of time?
  • markwalker
    markwalker Posts: 953
    Heckler1974 wrote:
    markwalker wrote:
    Funny youre wife said she preferred pencils to you becasue they did have a point..... Ka ching heckle no more! :)

    .........sounds of audience clearing throat.......tumble weed rolls across stage.

    thankyou from the back if i wanted to fart ive got my own a rse hole i dont need another
  • markwalker
    markwalker Posts: 953
    Westerberg wrote:
    markwalker/ crankmeister - same person? surely there can't be two such small minded, semi-literate blow hards frequenting the Cake Stop in such a short space of time?

    well youre here arent you?

    no Crankmeister isnt me but i liked his view
  • DaSy
    DaSy Posts: 599
    markwalker wrote:
    no Crankmeister isnt me but i liked his view

    And for that reason, I'm out.
    Complicating matters since 1965
  • markwalker
    markwalker Posts: 953
    A moral high ground or mandate is not much comfort when your children or brother or parents have just been gassed or burnt or torn to shreds by a carbomb.

    Yes they died horribly and my childs lots his genitalia but i can feel good that we didnt torture the enemy to stop it happening?

    Its an argument that has no validity
  • Frank the tank
    Frank the tank Posts: 6,553
    I think people who believe intellegence/secret services of all nations don't have "torture" of one sort or another as a tool in the locker are living in cloud cuckoo land.

    I would think the art of good methods of torture are the methods that leave no physical scarring, it's harder to prove it's taken place whereby mental scarring is always going to be subject to medical opinion.

    If the secret services have a suspect in for questioning and he just sits there in silence or giving it "no comment" how do you get them to talk. Mind you, in the case of someone who's prepared to blow themselves up (let's assume you have the right man, for sake of argument) why should he be bothered about being tortured?
    Tail end Charlie

    The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.
  • tri-sexual
    tri-sexual Posts: 672
    Slow Downcp wrote:
    The question wasn't asking whether torture was okay to get a connfession for a crime committed - it's whether it's justifiable to obtain information that conquently saves numerous lives. (That's how I read it anyway).

    If the difference was my family would not be alive if the information wasn't gained, then yes - I'm in favour. Most people will say the same. Those that don't are mostly lying to appear politically correct.

    If, by using the same methods on one man, the twin towers attack and 7-11 in London could have been avoided, and subsequently the war in Afgahnistan that has cost countless lives how can people say it is unforgivable?

    isnt a 7-11 a convience shop :?: :?
  • markwalker
    markwalker Posts: 953
    Frank the tank wrote:
    I think people who believe intellegence/secret services of all nations don't have "torture" of one sort or another as a tool in the locker are living in cloud cuckoo land.

    I would think the art of good methods of torture are the methods that leave no physical scarring, it's harder to prove it's taken place whereby mental scarring is always going to be subject to medical opinion.

    If the secret services have a suspect in for questioning and he just sits there in silence or giving it "no comment" how do you get them to talk. Mind you, in the case of someone who's prepared to blow themselves up (let's assume you have the right man, for sake of argument) why should he be bothered about being tortured?

    Well blowing yourself up is in your control (sometimes) and they know its over before its begun.

    Torture is far more difficult and people crack, end of thats the way it is. But i agree totally that most countries security services would use or turn a blind eye to torture. clearly the British Govt does.

    Actually i dont want to know the details but im very glad some others do it to make me and my family safe,
  • Heckler1974
    Heckler1974 Posts: 479
    markwalker wrote:
    Actually i dont want to know the details but im very glad some others do it to make me and my family safe,

    Arguable, the other side of the coin is that the knowledge that we do it 'secretly' (and we certainly do) and the US do it openly actually fuels extremism by reinforcing the great satan stereo-types that push people into extremism in the first place.

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