Viner Magnifica - advice

Westerberg

Hi,

Anyone have one of these and can comment on their experiences?

I'm after a good all rounder, sportives, bit of racing, sunday runs.....

Want something reasonably 'racy' - geometry wise, would rather have something built for speed than compromise too much in trying to make it 'comfy'.

I'm a bit of a novice in interpreting bike geometry. What would this indicate? :-

http://www.epic-cycles.co.uk/images/viner-mag09-geo.jpg

mididoctors

if you have the money you get the thing made to measure...which I believe you can at epic for some of the Viner's...

GENERALIZING basically the more racy the smaller the value of of "R" compared to "A"

155 vs 555 for The "Large" is about average for a road bike but not really heads down Jens

"D" short = more racy but less comfort

anything over 415 is a bit "audaxy"

405 is tight and racy

the angles open and close with frame size the rear angle goes slacker (less vertical) as you enlarge

the opposite on the front

555 73,5 front and rear is pretty bog standard

pontarlier_pete

You'll have a job ordering a Viner from Epic Cycles, last I heard was they were refusing to place any more orders due to inconsistent finishing quality.

There is a Viner rep on the forum though - Peter Cole - and I found him to be very helpful (even if I didn't end up going down the Viner route... :oops: )

mididoctors

Pontarlier Pete wrote:

You'll have a job ordering a Viner from Epic Cycles, last I heard was they were refusing to place any more orders due to inconsistent finishing quality.

There is a Viner rep on the forum though - Peter Cole - and I found him to be very helpful (even if I didn't end up going down the Viner route... :oops: )

is that right.... hmmmmm good for them if they weren't happy.

yeah the website has pulled them off

Westerberg

thanks guys - useful info.

I was wondering where the Viner's had gone! I have a fitting at Epic coming up so worth knowing they've decided to pull them. There's one on ebay I have my eye on though.

neotimbo

S'funny. I bought a magnifica frame from epic this week. Finish looks fantastic and 5 year guarantee. Not built up yet so can't comment on the ride quality yet.

Bikes still on website as far as I can see

stuaff

I've just PM'd Peter Cole, thought it might be an idea to see if he'd address these problems.

I'm after a good all rounder, sportives, bit of racing, sunday runs.....

Want something reasonably 'racy' - geometry wise, would rather have something built for speed than compromise too much in trying to make it 'comfy'

As for the bike...My previous-model Magnifica is my first road bike in a long while, and I didn't test ride it or anything else before buying (eBay bargain). To my mind, it meets exactly the first part of your criteria- it's a brilliant all-rounder. Sunday runs are its principal usage for me, and I'm planning to do a sportive or two (my first) this year. I've done a few 60-80 mile runs on it, and it was brilliant. Stiff enough to go like the clappers but it won't beat you up and it handles the potholed and imperfect services of Britain very well, though it doesn't like that marvelously 'evenly uneven' tarmac that sends vibration right through the frame. Perhaps not quite as 'racy' as you might like, the handling is more stable and steady than flighty/twitchy (more akin to a Spesh Roubaix than a Tarmac, I'd imagine). Try before you buy, I think...but if it's your kind of ride, you'll love it.

magliaceleste

Wow that's really interesting. Epic were hugely into Viners, even their own racing team used Viner bikes. I got great service off them for my Viner Mitus.

I wondered what was going on with them since they started listed less Viners and started adopting a load of...less interesting brands.

Funnily enough I sent the first Mitus back due to finishing problems. It is by far the finest bike I have ever ridden, so worth the hassle fortunately.

It's not because the UK Viner distributors are also selling direct instead perhaps? (although when I spoke to them they were moving away from this idea)

From a customer/sales point of view, a sad loss for both Viner and for Epic.

Who is left selling them now (that are any good?)

Westerberg

StuAff - that's really useful stuff - cheers.

Viners have def disappeared from the website - I mailed Epic earlier this week and they only mentioned that they don't have many left - nothing about pulling the plug on supply.

I've been to a few LBS's today and have some food for thought in terms of alternative options at around the 2k price mark, namely:

1. Cannondale Super Six (2.4k)
2. Pinarello FP3 2009 (2k)
3. Kuota Kebel (2.6k with spinergy wheels, 1.9k with Mavics)

I'm favouring the Cannondale. But I'll have to wait and see how much the Viner currently on ebay goes for!

vinerbikesuk

The quality control issues referred to in this thread relate to two frames delivered to Epic Cycles in December 2009. However this was not the reason why they decided to withdraw Viner from their store.

To quote Epic Cycles


"We have been monitoring the number of enquiries, sales volume, margin retention, conversion rate and also sales time period for all of our brands and although we have a huge emotional attachment for the Viner products (as most of us use them!) they are under-performing for the investment in time, money and space they currently absorb"

The Viner core business is also moving more and more to the custom and made to measure products. We can manufacture 90% of our range in this way, in every material, more and more of our dealers are signing up to our education programme for bike fitting and cycle frame design and specialist geometry tuning. This sales process is very different to the traditional “bike shop experience” and requires and large investment in education by the dealer and a very different mindset and approach to sales.

To clear up the topic of Quality Control, an issue very close closer to our heart and business ethos. The issues with these two frames were of minor cosmetic paint defects, these paint faults should have been picked up before the frames were dispatched, this was our mistake, since then we have changed our procedures to ensure this does not happen again.

All of our frames are painted by hand in Italy, using were ever possible environmentally friendly paints and solvents {and always following EU environmental laws} Why mention this? Well not many people realise that most frames/bikes in the market place are painted in the Far East. Using paints and associated products that are banded in the EU, these products may well make the painting process much easier, but at a cost, they are extremely toxic and damaging to the environment.

To give some technical background to the paint problems we have had. After we have finished working the “raw” carbon frame, we need to seal the carbon, otherwise it will act as a “sponge” absorbing the paint that is applied to it. Many of the primers that are highly effective at this task are banned in the EU, the alternative products we have to work with have offered many challenges to our paint shop. We have now succeeded in solving this issue.

It is good to see a resurgence of steel frame builders in the industry, going back to the roots and heart of the specialist cycle manufacture and away from the “selling a box” modern approach. The bike should be built to fit the rider and not the rider have to try and fit the bike.

Viner puts a lot of time, energy and research into developing the very best products, a side effect of this is that our products are very reliable. This gives us the confidence to offer a 5 year warranty on all our frames. For more than 7 years Viner UK has been importing Viner into the UK, in this time we have not had ONE single carbon frame failure, I do not know of any other manufacture that can match this record.

On the rare occasion paint defects have developed on customers frames {over time the micro flex of the carbon layer against the ridged painted layers can cause minor cracks to develop, we have worked hard now to eliminate this} the factory has always repainted the customers frame free of charge. Again I know many other companies will not offer this service.

All Viner framesets are fully tested by an independent mechanical research laboratory to our strict standards, which are superior to current EN standards. {The Maxima is the only frame to actually survive the destruction test... but this is another story!} How many other products in the market place are tested to such standards? We know that many for sale have not even been EN tested!

We also understand we need to improve our marketing and customer communication, maybe this post will go a little way in addressing this. Viner is not as well known as some of the big brands outside of Italy, we do not spend millions of Euros a year on advertising and sponsoring big Pro Teams to do so would mean we would have to increase the price of our products and or reduce their quality. Not to mention making redundant the staff that have worked for the company for decades and moving the factory over to the Far East, many other Italian frame builders / Italian brands may not have an issue in doing this, but Viner do.
NOTE: It was back in 1994 that Viner decided to stop sponsoring larger Pro Teams, the vast sums requested for the Mapei Team sponsorship, a team which it helped start in 1993, seem to be running out of control. It was at this time the then MD Cesare Baldi decided to instead invest in R&D and developing the best possible products, let the products do the talking.

The current global cycle industry is all about mass production, low ex factory gate product price, high margins and large investments in marketing and advertising. We feel the customer deserves a choice and with Viner we offer an alternative. It is also ironic when you think about it... the customer ends up paying the salary of the pro rider and the pro team, and after all that how many pros are actually riding the bike we think they are?

Viner s.p.a. is a small family run business based in Tuscany Italy, which has been hand building bikes for over 60 years.

black20vt

Excellent post - this is exactly why my next bike will be a Viner.

Thanks

Chip \'oyler

That post is exactly why I have two Viner's and would buy more If I had the money!

calvjones

+1. I went Scapin, not Viner but for these reasons exactly. Continued success Pete.

giant_man

Continued success indeed for Viner, great frames/bikes by all accounts. I would far rather put my money in their direction than other certain Italian marques .....

hopper1

After reading that, I'll bring Viner into my posible next frame list.

pontarlier_pete

giant mancp wrote:

Continued success indeed for Viner, great frames/bikes by all accounts. I would far rather put my money in their direction than other certain Italian marques .....

+1. I think with some Italian brands there's an "Italian premium" bumping prices up by 10-20%. A Viner Maxima is my dream bike. Just a shame it's out of my price range!

giant_man

Perhaps there is a premium paid for some Italian marques. Imo some are worth it and some are not .....

cal_stewart

Good post and I would like to say a reasonable reply from epic, no nasty's or bullshit just a business choice. So who will measure you for a viner now?

Chip \'oyler

Epic aren't the only Viner dealers in the UK.

paul64

Also, do a search on Viner on the forum as I have already posted my happiness as a Viner Magnifica customer (bought from Epic last summer) in other threads. I won't be alone in this.

antikythera

For what its worth, I'd been looking at a Maxima for a while and originally talked to Epic and CycleDoctor (now defunct?).

As luck would have it I met up with Peter at the London Cycle show and met one of their new resellers, Mal from Le Beau Velo .

I had a really positive experience talking to both of them and subsequently put in an order for a Maxima. While Mal (and LeBeau Velo) don't operate in the traditional store-front manner. I think their ethos is much more in keeping with the likes of Viner.

So dispite Epics choice to drop Viner from their range, there are viable options out there.

pontarlier_pete

antikythera wrote:

For what its worth, I'd been looking at a Maxima for a while and originally talked to Epic and CycleDoctor (now defunct?).

As luck would have it I met up with Peter at the London Cycle show and met one of their new resellers, Mal from Le Beau Velo .

I had a really positive experience talking to both of them and subsequently put in an order for a Maxima. While Mal (and LeBeau Velo) don't operate in the traditional store-front manner. I think their ethos is much more in keeping with the likes of Viner.

So dispite Epics choice to drop Viner from their range, there are viable options out there.

I. Hate. You.

Git.

Chip \'oyler

antikythera wrote:

For what its worth, I'd been looking at a Maxima for a while and originally talked to Epic and CycleDoctor (now defunct?).

As luck would have it I met up with Peter at the London Cycle show and met one of their new resellers, Mal from Le Beau Velo .

I had a really positive experience talking to both of them and subsequently put in an order for a Maxima. While Mal (and LeBeau Velo) don't operate in the traditional store-front manner. I think their ethos is much more in keeping with the likes of Viner.

So dispite Epics choice to drop Viner from their range, there are viable options out there.

As a Maxima owner I agree with you on the ethos of Le Beau Velo (although their website needs working on)

Enjoy your Maxima - however if you've ordered a Maxima RS I'll be well jealous

antikythera

Prepare to be jealous ....

But to put it into context, it is my "ultimate", "once in a life time" bike and I wont be buying another unless I win the lottery.

Chip \'oyler, your right the web site needs a little attention, but their focus is more on cycling than tech at the moment

Chip \'oyler

antikythera wrote:

Prepare to be jealous ....

But to put it into context, it is my "ultimate", "once in a life time" bike and I wont be buying another unless I win the lottery.

Chip \'oyler, your right the web site needs a little attention, but their focus is more on cycling than tech at the moment

You b*******d!

Funnily enough my Maxima was a 40th present (my lovely wife helped pay half towards it).

I'll expect photos on here when she's built

rake

why do they use lugged frames and not nonocoque.

stuaff

rake wrote:

why do they use lugged frames and not nonocoque.

Or even monocoque....;)

I think that's, at least in part (tradition/preference of the manufacturer might also be a factor) to facilitate the level of customisation Viner allow, particularly on the Maxima. All the models from the Volata upwards are available in custom sizing, and standard or compact geometry, the Maxima is also built to suit the rider's weight and riding characteristics- so they can build it one way for a sprinter and another way for a climber. Whether that's possible with a monocoque frame, pass....

stuaff

antikythera wrote:

Prepare to be jealous ....

But to put it into context, it is my "ultimate", "once in a life time" bike and I wont be buying another unless I win the lottery.

Chip \'oyler, your right the web site needs a little attention, but their focus is more on cycling than tech at the moment

Maxima RS Plus then?

Jealous myself, naturally...but I have sort-of-decided that I'll be saving up for one myself, I've got the winter Viner already
My local Viner emporium, Velocity, have one of these two beauties (the lower one) on display in the shop. A really lucky b..... owns both!!!

giant_man

Never ridden the Maxima or the Maxima RS, but the Perfecta looks good too and a good review on this very site. I like the fact Viner is 100% Italian and you can have custom fitting:

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/cate ... a-10-37421

and list of UK dealers here:

http://www.vinerbikes.com/partners/uk-d ... 3_402.html

CliveDS

Viner are comming to the US. I am waiting for the demo bikes to arrive. Can't wait to review the maxima RS

Westerberg

so all in all, is the Magnifica considered more of a sportive/upright type bike ? I'm still a bit novice at trying to tell from the geometry: