Pulling strain

2

Comments

  • teagar
    teagar Posts: 2,100
    Maybe where we differ is what's honorable..

    I take it as:

    Honoring your sponsor with a front cover splash of their band is honourable.

    Winning a race with tactical nouse is honourable!

    Here's a question:

    If, in a monument classic, a rider manages to get into the race winning break, the only one of his team represented, and contributes toally nothing to that break, thus leaving him with enough energy to rinse everyone else in the race and win. Is that not honourable?

    Or is this only applicable for GT breaks?

    Have fun on the turbo.
    Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    It's not black and white. Generally if, say, two riders found they had a rider sitting on then they aren't going to tow the rider to the finish just so they get beaten. Any rider sitting on the back of the group is going to be obvious so riders will attack the group before the finish in order to get rid of the wheelsucker.

    As for winning without doing a turn, it is possible but people in the bunch have long memories. It's better to take part in the break, at least by doing half-turns. If you have team mates behind then all the more reason for you to try since it will only make other teams chase.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,869
    teagar wrote:

    If, in a monument classic, a rider manages to get into the race winning break, the only one of his team represented, and contributes totally nothing to that break, thus leaving him with enough energy to rinse everyone else in the race and win. Is that not honourable?

    Or is this only applicable for GT breaks?
    .

    the unsatisfactory and somewhat flabby answer is "it depends"


    there is a difference on the day.... not specifically stage races vs one day races

    if Pereiro was at 5mins on GC then Hincapie would be better placed to sit in... I mean what could Oscar object to?

    its very varible.... i mean its not a law more a code..... like prates of the carribean :D
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • teagar
    teagar Posts: 2,100
    Kléber wrote:
    It's not black and white. Generally if, say, two riders found they had a rider sitting on then they aren't going to tow the rider to the finish just so they get beaten. Any rider sitting on the back of the group is going to be obvious so riders will attack the group before the finish in order to get rid of the wheelsucker.

    As for winning without doing a turn, it is possible but people in the bunch have long memories. It's better to take part in the break, at least by doing half-turns. If you have team mates behind then all the more reason for you to try since it will only make other teams chase.

    That very much depends on the situation - see the above discussion.
    Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    Surely one of the reasons for a leader's teammate to be in a break is to do no work and threaten to take the stage win, thereby discouraging the break from working. If he's going to be 'honorable' then that threat doesn't exist and they won't be discouraged.

    Anyway is this professional sport - 'honorable' belongs at the local bridge club. And if it's about 'deserving' a win, then why don't the peloton gift Cavendish the win every time HTC pull back the break on their own.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • teagar
    teagar Posts: 2,100
    RichN95 wrote:
    Surely one of the reasons for a leader's teammate to be in a break is to do no work and threaten to take the stage win, thereby discouraging the break from working. If he's going to be 'honorable' then that threat doesn't exist and they won't be discouraged.

    Anyway is this professional sport - 'honorable' belongs at the local bridge club. And if it's about 'deserving' a win, then why don't the peloton gift Cavendish the win every time HTC pull back the break on their own.

    quite
    Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.
  • shockedsoshocked
    shockedsoshocked Posts: 4,021
    Advice from a former-pro with regards to not working in breaks: "It's my job to win, it's their job to drop me"

    He made a career out of it!
    "A cyclist has nothing to lose but his chain"

    PTP Runner Up 2015
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,869
    edited February 2010
    RichN95 wrote:
    Surely one of the reasons for a leader's teammate to be in a break is to do no work and threaten to take the stage win, thereby discouraging the break from working. If he's going to be 'honorable' then that threat doesn't exist and they won't be discouraged.
    .

    again situation specific... Hincapies role was not to discourage the break instead his teams role was to work the break over for his benefit

    can you see the difference?
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    In my opinion, although there are valid points on either side, I don't care too much about winning I care more about the way you win or try for it. That may be contrary to most people but I couldn't care less. It makes me laugh when people trot out the argument of not having to have morals or codes of conduct in sport.

    Situation 1: there is someone in the break who is dangerous to GC. In this instance, I agree that the rider shouldn't work and think he shouldn't contest the win.

    Situtaion 2: there is no rider dangerous to GC. The rider should work like everyone else.

    You may add a win to your palmares and a couple of bucks to your bank by bagging a win but I will not respect your win.

    Real champions and real riders earn their palmares.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • teagar
    teagar Posts: 2,100
    I guess something should also be said of the other riders in the breaks - those that are pulling.

    It's as much up to them to sort out the wheel sucker as the sucker himself. Being content to pull Hincape along for free in the form he was then ( to continue the example...) was hardly the smartest tactical move.

    As shocked said...
    Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    And what do you suppose they do? Push him off his bike? Stop riding so the peloton catches them?
    Contador is the Greatest
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    frenchfighter wrote:
    And what do you suppose they do? Push him off his bike? Stop riding so the peloton catches them?

    Work together to isolate and drop him, maybe?
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,869
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    frenchfighter wrote:
    And what do you suppose they do? Push him off his bike? Stop riding so the peloton catches them?

    Work together to isolate and drop him, maybe?

    that has happened.... if some members of the break sacrifice themselves.. which is a hard call

    does happen thou
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Mididoctors: You are correct it does happen, a card best played when there are 2 teammates in the break wanting rid of an "interloper".

    However, it also happens in less planned ways. I recall a race I was in (nowhere near the pros, but bear with me!) about 5 years ago in a 4 man break with one fat guy never doing a tap. Me and the other 2 were from the same area and knew each other and a plan was hatched to shed the guy by the two behind him attacking whenever he ended up 2nd wheel. Sadly, I was the unlucky soul who got caught out, along with said fat bloke, and the other two contested 1st and 2nd whilst we faded back to the bunch. And i've never been near a placing since!
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,869
    edited February 2010
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    Mididoctors: You are correct it does happen, a card best played when there are 2 teammates in the break wanting rid of an "interloper".

    However, it also happens in less planned ways. I recall a race I was in (nowhere near the pros, but bear with me!) about 5 years ago in a 4 man break with one fat guy never doing a tap. Me and the other 2 were from the same area and knew each other and a plan was hatched to shed the guy by the two behind him attacking whenever he ended up 2nd wheel. Sadly, I was the unlucky soul who got caught out, along with said fat bloke, and the other two contested 1st and 2nd whilst we faded back to the bunch. And i've never been near a placing since!

    who attacked first

    don't be the first guy to attack is the golden rule

    but they owe you a "minor" favour remember..... or at least respect :wink:
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,869
    there should be more threads like this
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • teagar
    teagar Posts: 2,100
    mididoctors wrote:
    there should be more threads like this

    Debates on road tactics? In Pro Race?

    It's a rare breed! 8)
    Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,869
    In general.... isolating the wheel sucker is easier on flattish run ins as the equivalence between riders is greater... in the hills if the guy sitting on (say hincapie) is strong its hard to work him over
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • teagar
    teagar Posts: 2,100
    mididoctors wrote:
    In general.... isolating the wheel sucker is easier on flattish run ins as the equivalence between riders is greater... in the hills if the guy sitting on (say hincapie) is strong its hard to work him over

    Doesn't that go some way to making his victory 'proper' as such?

    Given that he had to be really strong still?
    Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    I almost forgot. Gerrans, most of his wins he sucks then goes in the last couple of Km. NOT a fan.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • pontarlier_pete
    pontarlier_pete Posts: 195
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    Mididoctors: You are correct it does happen, a card best played when there are 2 teammates in the break wanting rid of an "interloper".

    However, it also happens in less planned ways. I recall a race I was in (nowhere near the pros, but bear with me!) about 5 years ago in a 4 man break with one fat guy never doing a tap. Me and the other 2 were from the same area and knew each other and a plan was hatched to shed the guy by the two behind him attacking whenever he ended up 2nd wheel. Sadly, I was the unlucky soul who got caught out, along with said fat bloke, and the other two contested 1st and 2nd whilst we faded back to the bunch. And i've never been near a placing since!

    A certain elite level TT/RRer from the Midlands used to do something similar this back when he was RRing in the 90's - when there was a weaker rider sitting on in a break, he'd drift to the back so that the chipper was behind him, then steadily let a gap open to the break. He'd keep doing this until said chipper could no longer bridge the gap, then he'd jump said chipper back to the break, leaving the poor guy all alone and off the back. :lol:
  • teagar
    teagar Posts: 2,100
    frenchfighter wrote:
    I almost forgot. Gerrans, most of his wins he sucks then goes in the last couple of Km. NOT a fan.

    We must look for different things in racers.

    Not keen on the Ignatev style brainless head-down-pedal-harder rider.

    A rider who can lick the plates of others clean first, before his own, is a top rider in my book. Thoroughly enjoy it.

    Where would be be without the Pozzatos? We'd have Boonen winning everything! (Actually, come to think of it, maybe that would be bett....)
    Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    teagar wrote:
    frenchfighter wrote:
    I almost forgot. Gerrans, most of his wins he sucks then goes in the last couple of Km. NOT a fan.

    We must look for different things in racers.

    Not keen on the Ignatev style brainless head-down-pedal-harder rider.

    A rider who can lick the plates of others clean first, before his own, is a top rider in my book. Thoroughly enjoy it.

    Where would be be without the Pozzatos? We'd have Boonen winning everything! (Actually, come to think of it, maybe that would be bett....)

    I love watching a really good tactical ride too. The thing that is often missed about Merckx et al and their 60km breakaway wins is that they come from an ability to look at who is around them, what their motivation , condition and inclination to chase is and exploiting this and any indecision or looking at each other taht will inevitably follow a surprise attack. Cycling is very rarely about brute strength.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • teagar
    teagar Posts: 2,100
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    Cycling is very rarely about brute strength.

    Unless you're exclusively following the yellow jersey in the Tour, *gasp* *horror* where 3 weeks worth of racing often irons out the tactical differences between riders, boiling it down to VAMs, watts per kilo and what not.
    Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    teagar wrote:
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    Cycling is very rarely about brute strength.

    Unless you're exclusively following the yellow jersey in the Tour, *gasp* *horror* where 3 weeks worth of racing often irons out the tactical differences between riders, boiling it down to VAMs, watts per kilo and what not.

    True dat, what we need is the sport to go back to being sponsored by machine toolers, boiler makers and sausage manufacturers so the level of affordable domestiques per team is lowered forcing their leaders to rely upon being able to outfox and outride each other mano a mano.

    The nearest I got to seeing that on the tour this year was Armstrong sitting up with Wiggo on his back wheel the day he had his spat with Contador.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    Regarding brute strength, lets take the Classics. Are you telling me that the hardest guys don't win? Sure there are tactics, but you don't ride off the front like Gilbert for 50km without strength and power. They are like survival of the fittest races.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    in a 4 man break with one fat guy

    How did you let the fat guy be on your level : ) He must of had some strength to hold your wheels!
    Contador is the Greatest
  • teagar
    teagar Posts: 2,100
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Regarding brute strength, lets take the Classics. Are you telling me that the hardest guys don't win? Sure there are tactics, but you don't ride off the front like Gilbert for 50km without strength and power. They are like survival of the fittest races.

    I doubt Cavendish was the 'strongest'. The fastest maybe.

    Ivanov wasn't the 'strongest' in Amstel either. It was the favourite all look at each other on the Cauberg that let him win.

    I personally felt that Boonen was stronger than Devolder in Flanders, but his efforts were neutered by Pozzato.

    So no, it's not always the strongest. Not by a long shot.
    Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    teagar wrote:
    frenchfighter wrote:
    I almost forgot. Gerrans, most of his wins he sucks then goes in the last couple of Km. NOT a fan.

    We must look for different things in racers.

    Not keen on the Ignatev style brainless head-down-pedal-harder rider.

    Sure we can like different riders. Gerrans has won three times by sucking the wheels dry and then jumping. At the Tour, at the Giro at the Vuelta. Not impressive.

    And come on, Merckx, Hinault et al, sure they had tactical minds but at the end of the day the were athletically brutish and showed it.

    EBH is someone who will pull his weight then kill the riders in the break.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    teagar wrote:
    So no, it's not always the strongest. Not by a long shot.

    Of course it is not always the strongest, generalising like that isn't useful. My point is that you don't win unless you are 'strong' unless you have sucked wheels then jump towards the end.
    Contador is the Greatest

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