Pulling strain

josame
josame Posts: 1,162
edited February 2010 in Pro race
Can anyone recount pro incidents during breakaways when the group feel that not everyone is pulling their weight fairly. I can recall that in the Tour of Britain a 2 man break away gave rise to some argy bargy in the last few km
'Do not compare your bike to others, for always there will be greater and lesser bikes'
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Comments

  • Pokerface
    Pokerface Posts: 7,960
    Tour de France 2009. Stage when Cadel Evans was on a break with Cancellara and a few others I think. I don't think they were keen to help him.
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    I think that was more that with Evans onboard, the others knew it wasn't worth bothering since Astana and Saxo would work to bring him back.

    As for sitting on the back of a break, see Philippo Pozzato for numerous examples :wink:
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,869
    edited February 2010
    Pokerface wrote:
    Tour de France 2009. Stage when Cadel Evans was on a break with Cancellara and a few others I think. I don't think they were keen to help him.

    Kleber is right the evans break was tactically nullified...... different thing


    a good example is Sean Yates moaning about Bortolami sitting on during a stage through Normandy in the 1994 tour.... Sean was riding for yellow and everyone in the small break helped knowing Yates wouldn't contest the sprint for stage victory...

    Bortolami sat on and jumped clear in the last few KM FTW
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,869
    Kléber wrote:

    As for sitting on the back of a break, see Philippo Pozzato for numerous examples :wink:

    indeed
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    In a kind of reverse of the OP, I recall Raimondas Rumsas going on the attack on the Champs Elysees whilst lying third in the GC in the 2002 Tour.

    The break also contained David Millar who commented that he requested Rumsas go forth in every language he could muster before ONCE chased them down to defend Joseba Beloki's second place. That man was a moron in every sense of the word.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • teagar
    teagar Posts: 2,100
    Any rider from a team holding the leaders' jersey who ends up in a breakaway is unlikely to do any work in a breakaway.
    Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.
  • afx237vi
    afx237vi Posts: 12,630
    George Hincapie's stage win on Pla d'Adet in the 2005 Tour? Got into an early break, did absolutely no work on the premise that Armstrong was in yellow and he might be required to help him later, only to outsprint Pereiro for the win.

    Or exactly the same situation in the 2006 Giro, but with the opposite outcome - Voigt in the break, Basso in the bunch wearing the pink jersey. Voigt does no work, but sits up before the line gifting the stage to Juanma Garate.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,869
    afx237vi wrote:
    George Hincapie's stage win on Pla d'Adet in the 2005 Tour? Got into an early break, did absolutely no work on the premise that Armstrong was in yellow and he might be required to help him later, only to outsprint Pereiro for the win.

    Or exactly the same situation in the 2006 Giro, but with the opposite outcome - Voigt in the break, Basso in the bunch wearing the pink jersey. Voigt does no work, but sits up before the line gifting the stage to Juanma Garate.

    +1

    that was BS that win by hincapie

    he should not have contested the stage.... there was no danger from behind as LA and the boys had it all under control

    himcapie should have shared the work if wanted to contest
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • teagar
    teagar Posts: 2,100
    mididoctors wrote:
    afx237vi wrote:
    George Hincapie's stage win on Pla d'Adet in the 2005 Tour? Got into an early break, did absolutely no work on the premise that Armstrong was in yellow and he might be required to help him later, only to outsprint Pereiro for the win.

    Or exactly the same situation in the 2006 Giro, but with the opposite outcome - Voigt in the break, Basso in the bunch wearing the pink jersey. Voigt does no work, but sits up before the line gifting the stage to Juanma Garate.

    +1

    that was BS that win by hincapie

    he should not have contested the stage.... there was no danger from behind as LA and the boys had it all under control

    himcapie should have shared the work if wanted to contest

    I don't agree. His team had done all the work previously to get hold of the yellow jersey. That's an advantage US Postal had worked hard for. Hincape rightly capitalised.
    Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.
  • timoid.
    timoid. Posts: 3,133
    How about Bruyneel getting a tow for miles through Belgum from Indurain in 95. Even he felt a bit uncomfortable with that win.
    It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,869
    edited February 2010
    Timoid. wrote:
    How about Bruyneel getting a tow for miles through Belgum from Indurain in 95. Even he felt a bit uncomfortable with that win.

    he had too... i gave him a pass on that, so did the big mig
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,869
    teagar wrote:

    I don't agree. His team had done all the work previously to get hold of the yellow jersey. That's an advantage US Postal had worked hard for. Hincape rightly capitalised.


    don't buy it

    nothing was in danger they could have agreed on a tempo and ridden together and everyone could have had it easier
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • teagar
    teagar Posts: 2,100
    mididoctors wrote:
    teagar wrote:

    I don't agree. His team had done all the work previously to get hold of the yellow jersey. That's an advantage US Postal had worked hard for. Hincape rightly capitalised.


    don't buy it

    nothing was in danger they could have agreed on a tempo and ridden together and everyone could have had it easier

    You're criticising US Postal for wanting to win stages, as well as holding the yellow jersey?
    C'mon.



    Next you'll be slating Merckx for winning too much.

    It's a pretty established way of racing. AG2R tried it in this tour - just the others in the breka made sure he didn't win - which is fair enough.
    Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.
  • shinyhelmut
    shinyhelmut Posts: 1,364
    mididoctors wrote:
    that was BS that win by hincapie

    he should not have contested the stage.... there was no danger from behind as LA and the boys had it all under control

    himcapie should have shared the work if wanted to contest

    it was that stage which finally made me accept that Big George wasn't entirely clean
  • greasedscotsman
    greasedscotsman Posts: 6,962
    I find it very funny that after winning that stage Hincapie was then touted as a future Tour champion and yet it was the guy he outsprinted who actually won the race instead!
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,869
    teagar wrote:
    mididoctors wrote:
    teagar wrote:

    I don't agree. His team had done all the work previously to get hold of the yellow jersey. That's an advantage US Postal had worked hard for. Hincape rightly capitalised.


    don't buy it

    nothing was in danger they could have agreed on a tempo and ridden together and everyone could have had it easier

    You're criticising US Postal for wanting to win stages, as well as holding the yellow jersey?
    C'mon.



    Next you'll be slating Merckx for winning too much.

    It's a pretty established way of racing. AG2R tried it in this tour - just the others in the breka made sure he didn't win - which is fair enough.

    true enough but it doesn't raise the cache of the win


    as for Ag2r the tactic was different, they were infiltrating the breaks to take pressure off themselves and get Astana to work

    plus the ag2r guys could flip the jersey between riders.... they had no pretension to wearing it in paris plus they actually rode in the breaks a whole lot more than hincapie did!

    the equivalent control could have let Hincapie ride into yellow by Disco sitting up!

    not the same deal
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • teagar
    teagar Posts: 2,100
    mididoctors wrote:
    teagar wrote:
    mididoctors wrote:
    teagar wrote:

    I don't agree. His team had done all the work previously to get hold of the yellow jersey. That's an advantage US Postal had worked hard for. Hincape rightly capitalised.


    don't buy it

    nothing was in danger they could have agreed on a tempo and ridden together and everyone could have had it easier

    You're criticising US Postal for wanting to win stages, as well as holding the yellow jersey?
    C'mon.



    Next you'll be slating Merckx for winning too much.

    It's a pretty established way of racing. AG2R tried it in this tour - just the others in the breka made sure he didn't win - which is fair enough.

    true enough but it doesn't raise the cache of the win


    as for Ag2r there tactic was different they were infiltrating the breaks to take pressure off themselves and get Astana to work

    plus the ag2r guys could flip the jersey between riders.... they had no pretension to wearing it paris

    the equivalent control could have let Hincapie ride into yellow by sitting up!

    not the same deal

    It's a 3 week race. If your team is in the position where it can dictate the terms of the race, and manage to put someone in a break where they have an understanble obligation to not work for the break- and then nab victory, then that's your win! That team's racing in the previous stages earned them that free riding luxury. It's all earned, just not on that specific day.

    I take it you're not keen on any sprinters' wins either? Lazy b*stards, only poking their nose in the wind 200m for the line...
    Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,869
    teagar wrote:

    It's a 3 week race. If your team is in the position where it can dictate the terms of the race, and manage to put someone in a break where they have an understood obligation to not work for the break- and then nab victory, then that's your win! That team's racing in the previous stages earned them that free riding luxury. It's all earned, just not on that specific day.

    I take it you're not keen on any sprinters' wins either? Lazy b*stards, only poking their nose in the wind 200m for the line...

    nahhh your going at right angles to the issue here...... arguing on the internet etc...

    not going there.. if you think that was ok in your book, fine.... I'll just keep a note of that and move on

    later
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • josame
    josame Posts: 1,162
    teagar wrote:

    It's a 3 week race. If your team is in the position where it can dictate the terms of the race, and manage to put someone in a break where they have an understood obligation to not work for the break- and then nab victory, then that's your win! That team's racing in the previous stages earned them that free riding luxury. It's all earned, just not on that specific day.

    I take it you're not keen on any sprinters' wins either? Lazy b*stards, only poking their nose in the wind 200m for the line...

    I agree with midi - your simply wrong in what you sayand as for bringing sprinters into this the simp[le answer is no people do not look at that in the same way - quite simply because that is a sprint!
    'Do not compare your bike to others, for always there will be greater and lesser bikes'
  • josame
    josame Posts: 1,162
    teagar: 'It's all earned, just not on that specific day'

    Come on, what has the DS giot a note book and he says look what we did a few days back - looks like we earned this one!

    not buying it - earn it on the day.
    'Do not compare your bike to others, for always there will be greater and lesser bikes'
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,869
    mididoctors wrote:
    Timoid. wrote:
    How about Bruyneel getting a tow for miles through Belgum from Indurain in 95. Even he felt a bit uncomfortable with that win.

    he had too... i gave him a pass on that, so did the big mig

    on an aside would the pig have come round him if there had been no time bonus?

    JB implied he wouldn't have and came forward to tell mig that he had to do it all many miles out... thus putting the ball in big migs court.

    if there had been no time bounus on the line and JB had mugged indurain it would be a different story.
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,869
    josame wrote:
    teagar: 'It's all earned, just not on that specific day'

    Come on, what has the DS giot a note book and he says look what we did a few days back - looks like we earned this one!

    not buying it - earn it on the day.

    I would say he is not completley wrong, favours and that can be carried over from stage to stage...even race to race

    even honor...
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • teagar
    teagar Posts: 2,100
    mididoctors wrote:
    teagar wrote:

    It's a 3 week race. If your team is in the position where it can dictate the terms of the race, and manage to put someone in a break where they have an understood obligation to not work for the break- and then nab victory, then that's your win! That team's racing in the previous stages earned them that free riding luxury. It's all earned, just not on that specific day.

    I take it you're not keen on any sprinters' wins either? Lazy b*stards, only poking their nose in the wind 200m for the line...

    nahhh your going at right angles to the issue here...... arguing on the internet etc...

    not going there.. if you think that was ok in your book, fine.... I'll just keep a note of that and move on

    later
    What a cop out.
    By your reasoning, if your team has the yellow jersey, you shouldn't be going for stage victories for yourself, or even in breaks!

    Hinacape obviousy couldn't contribute to the break - else make his teammates in the peleton work harder. which defeats the point of him being in the break. So, if he can't put in the effort in the break to 'allow' him to win the stage, why enter the break at all? Seems like a waste of energy in that case.

    You could argue for sending men up the road to tactical reasons etc, which is fair enough, but given Hincape went for the win here, it's not relevant.
    Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.
  • teagar
    teagar Posts: 2,100
    josame wrote:
    teagar: 'It's all earned, just not on that specific day'

    Come on, what has the DS giot a note book and he says look what we did a few days back - looks like we earned this one!
    not buying it - earn it on the day.

    Pretty much what I am saying. Since the Tour is a 3 week race, you can't take a stage on its own and out of context. That US postal had the yellow jersery is directly relevant to the tactics Hincape used.

    Why's everyone 'not buying' stuff by the way? I'm not selling? It's not a sales pitch?
    Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,869
    teagar wrote:
    [

    Hinacape obviousy couldn't contribute to the break - else make his teammates in the peloton work harder. which defeats the point of him being in the break. So, if he can't put in the effort in the break to 'allow' him to win the stage, why enter the break at all? Seems like a waste of energy in that case.

    back on OT

    you have it back to front

    he could have ridden to the front and said...tone it down lads I'll send the word back not to over do it behind.... they all arrive at the final climb equally fresh...

    at worst someone other than Disco has to work in the bunch!!!!!
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • teagar
    teagar Posts: 2,100
    mididoctors wrote:
    teagar wrote:
    [

    Hinacape obviousy couldn't contribute to the break - else make his teammates in the peloton work harder. which defeats the point of him being in the break. So, if he can't put in the effort in the break to 'allow' him to win the stage, why enter the break at all? Seems like a waste of energy in that case.

    back on OT

    you have it back to front

    he could have ridden to the front and said...tone it down lads I'll send the word back not to over do it behind.... they all arrive at the final climb equally fresh...

    at worst someone other than Disco has to work in the bunch!!!!!

    But that all depends on Hincape being highest placed on GC in the break - which I don't think was the case here... If that's the case then you're right, but if not, then it's silly.
    Seems to me you would dislike it in either case anyway.
    Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,869
    teagar wrote:

    But that all depends on Hincape being highest placed on GC in the break - which I don't think was the case here...

    hmmmm sort of but not quite

    IIRC OP was the outside danger man drifting up the top ten on GC but that is not the issue ....

    if Oscar insisted in going for the time over the stage (late in the tour) then you have a point....

    but everyone was looking for the nod from big george the whole day... never came

    in a way Disco worked everyone over in the break as thou it was a one day classic

    which you could argue is the smart thing to do...
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • teagar
    teagar Posts: 2,100
    Which i am arguing! ^^

    Just because it's a break doesn't mean it isn't a team effort - even if the team in this case provides tactical flexibility rather than any physical effort.
    Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,869
    teagar wrote:
    Which i am arguing! ^^

    Just because it's a break doesn't mean it isn't a team effort - even if the team in this case provides tactical flexibility rather than any physical effort.

    but makes a mockery of sitting in as honorable tactic ... no!

    hence why hincapie's win is seen as a bit lame...

    I mean OP came out the next day and did it again in the mountains and won and Disco didn't even bother covering this "danger man"...or Evans... who IIRC went down the road as well...

    the pretense of covering guys 25 mins down on GC?
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,869
    good argument btw

    off on the turbo for an hour or so
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm

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