The Deniers...and your vote?

BikingBernie

dennisn wrote:

We are not a nation of French haters or haters of much of anything for that matter. I don't know any anti-French xenophob's(that I know of)... I really don't think I've ever seen your version of America. Even though I do like Ayn Rand.

That is a rather contradictory statement given that in your previous post you said the following...

dennisn wrote:

I never really noticed any real French "hatred or bad feelings or whatever" from anyone UNTIL 9-11. Then all the French jokes started coming out, things like that, and people that you talked to had nothing good to say about them. Not everyone, but the majority seemed to think that France had "betrayed us" (for lack of better words).

Whatever might hold for your personal circle of friends, the attitudes I mention are widespread (as you yourself have acknowledged). In one survey I read 52% of people in Texas - Armstrong's home state - were found to have negative attitudes towards 'the French'. Many also acknowledge that part of the attraction of Armstrong is the perception that he is an American 'putting one over' on 'The French'. As the Texas Monthly put it "Lance is on top of the world; what could possibly motivate him anymore? Well, there's rubbing the Gallic nose into the pavement again, always a trusty pleasure. "

http://www.texasmonthly.com/2001-07-01/feature4.php

As to the US not being a nation of 'haters', they don't seem to care much for 'towel heads'....

iainf72

BikingBernie wrote:

The implication that 'The French' were out to 'screw' him was implicit in the accusations he made against the LNDD. Fraud Landis never claimed that the LNDD 'conspire' against every rider whose samples they test, so why should they do so in his case? The blank he left for other to fill in was "Because he is another American 'winner' of the Tour"...

No, but did he say the lab "conspired" against him? There I was thinking his defence was an attempt at being science based.

Lets not forget here that LNDD's failings as a lab meant Landaluze dodged a bullet for a sure thing testosterone positive. Were there problems in the T/E test? Yes, and Landis and team seized on this and tried to show the other testing was performed to a similarly poor standard. Ultimately, they failed and the correct verdict was reached.

He tested positive in the Tour de FRANCE. Therefore, people are going to sieze of the FRANCE part if they're so inclined.

disgruntledgoat

frenchfighter wrote:

In reply to those questionning the 'last two'. Yes I think they were clean - does anyone think Valverde rode this Vuelta doped? As for Contador, I am not arguing this point as it isn't worth it, he has nothing doping related to tarnish him apart from Puerto which has been shown to be nothing.

I agree Menchov hasn't been proven guilty and it is just my opinion that he is a doper.

So your yardstick here is whether you like them or not? Why do you think Valverde rode this year clean?Can you teach how I too can look at a rider and immediately form a concrete opinion on whether he's clean or not, cos some of my guesses have been WAY off.

BikingBernie

iainf72 wrote:

but did he say the lab "conspired" against him? There I was thinking his defence was an attempt at being science based.

From the CAS verdict, as I posted earlier....

---

256. This evidence was apparently introduced to suggest that there was a conspiracy within the Lab to ensure that the samples of Floyd Landis would be found positive. The difficulty with the theory of conspiracy is that the Lab was conducting the analysis of the Stage 17 sample without knowing on whose sample they were working.

257. The Panel rejects the theory of a Lab conspiracy as being without foundation and facts to come to such a conclusion.

moray_gub

BikingBernie wrote:

dennisn wrote:

We are not a nation of French haters or haters of much of anything for that matter. I don't know any anti-French xenophob's(that I know of)... I really don't think I've ever seen your version of America. Even though I do like Ayn Rand.

That is a rather contradictory statement given that in your previous post you said the following...

dennisn wrote:

I never really noticed any real French "hatred or bad feelings or whatever" from anyone UNTIL 9-11. Then all the French jokes started coming out, things like that, and people that you talked to had nothing good to say about them. Not everyone, but the majority seemed to think that France had "betrayed us" (for lack of better words).

Whatever might hold for your personal circle of friends, the attitudes I mention are widespread (as you yourself have acknowledged). In one survey I read 52% of people in Texas - Armstrong's home state - were found to have negative attitudes towards 'the French'.
As to the US not being a nation of 'haters', they don't seem to care much for 'towel heads'....

So over 12 million people in Texas have a negative attitude to the French..............yea right. Meanwhile back in France it was revealed 42,567,321 people have a negative attitude towards the English...............

BikingBernie

Moray Gub wrote:

So over 12 million people in Texas have a negative attitude to the French..............yea right. Meanwhile back in France it was revealed 42,567,321 people have a negative attitude towards the English...............

I have lived in France for a number of years now and can honestly say that I have never experienced anything that seemed to be an expression of anti-English attitudes. Unfortunately, this is not something I can say about the time I spent living in Scotland. The following was written at the time I was living there and it reflects my experiences perfectly...


'Stop trying to send the Sassenachs homewards'
Author accuses some Scots of racism in their attitude towards English 'settlers'
The Scotsman 21/10/97

HATRED of English settlers north of the Border represents the first tentative steps towards an outbreak of ethnic violence, according to a Scottish historian. Author Dr James Hunter believes that a growing resentment of the English in some Scottish communities amounts to open racism and should be firmly quashed.

"People who have these views no doubt think they are patriotic Scots, but there is nothing to be proud of in founding your sense of identity on animosity towards other human beings," he said. "That represents at least putting one foot or maybe two feet on the top of the slippery slope that leads to what happened in Yugoslavia. "It is a very dangerous issue potentially and it is one we ought to confront and discuss and debate seriously before it gets too late."

Dr Hunter's comments were made in a BBC Frontline Scotland programme on Scottish racism against the English, to be broadcast tonight. The documentary investigates growing feelings of resentment against so-called "white settlers" across Scotland.

In Brechin recently, two families from Manchester were forced to return south after a vicious cycle of anti-English rumours surfaced at a meeting of the community council. The Kershaws and the Andersons were accused of causing rising vandalism, crime and an influx of drugs at a time when police said that crime was actually falling.

In the remote west coast village of Sunart on the Ardnamurchan Peninsula, English hotelier John Burgess was forced to sell up after a string of violent incidents. "There was an anti-English feeling about people taking over businesses in Scotland," he said. "I've had cracked ribs in the bar, we've thrown people out, we've had chairs thrown through windows and flower containers and tables thrown into the loch." He also received death threats from Settler Watch.

On the Black Isle, anti-English feeling erupted into violence when two teenagers from south of the Border were set upon by a gang. The procurator-fiscal told a court he was convinced anti-English feeling sparked the attack.

Despite the increase in anti-English feeling, Dr Hunter believes the arrival of devolution will ease the problem. "We now have a great opportunity to create a society where people from all sorts of backgrounds are made to feel a part of the new Scotland," he added.

"That new Scotland won't be worth having if it's based on antagonism, hostility and racism. But I believe that with more autonomy Scots will have no excuse to blame the English for all the ills of the world and that will lead to a better relationship."

DaveyL

Yes, no wonder France didn't support the toppling of Saddam - they've done some pretty good businenss with him over the years. Who knows, maybe some of the profits went into the healthcare system of this left-wing idyll....

DaveyL

disgruntledgoat wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

In reply to those questionning the 'last two'. Yes I think they were clean - does anyone think Valverde rode this Vuelta doped? As for Contador, I am not arguing this point as it isn't worth it, he has nothing doping related to tarnish him apart from Puerto which has been shown to be nothing.

I agree Menchov hasn't been proven guilty and it is just my opinion that he is a doper.

So your yardstick here is whether you like them or not? Why do you think Valverde rode this year clean?Can you teach how I too can look at a rider and immediately form a concrete opinion on whether he's clean or not, cos some of my guesses have been WAY off.

The problem with Menchov is, his shoes are not stylish enough...

andyp

Moray Gub wrote:

So over 12 million people in Texas have a negative attitude to the French..............yea right. Meanwhile back in France it was revealed 42,567,321 people have a negative attitude towards the English...............

Made even more funnier by how seriously BB took your jibe.

DaveyL

BikingBernie wrote:

And who was responsible for the bare-faced denial, Franco-phobic conspiracy theories and all the rest that followed?

So, Landis wasn't *responsible* for the Franco-phobic conspiracy theories then?

Or maybe you mean "responsible", in that he didn't condemn everyone who came out with such stuff?

I suppose at the time he was quite busy with other things so maybe couldn't keep track of it all - it's not like he's some obsessive nutjob who trawls the net looking selectively for stuff to back up his preconceived opinions...

BikingBernie

DaveyL wrote:

Yes, no wonder France didn't support the toppling of Saddam - they've done some pretty good businenss with him over the years. Who knows, maybe some of the profits went into the healthcare system of this left-wing idyll....

Actually, the people who did the most business with him - and kept him in power despite knowing all about his abuses of human rights- were the Americans. They did this even after the invasion of Kuwait as even if he was a despot, he was their despot. Then in October 2000 he made the mistake of starting to trade Iraqi oil in Euros rather than Dollars. From then on the US was planning to get rid of him as the only thing that keeps the US economy afloat is the use of the Dollar on the trading markets.

This was hardly a secret! For example, in response to Saddam Hussein's move to trade Iraqi oil in Euros (and well before '9/11') prestigious policy study centres such as The Baker Institute ‘an integral part of Rice University, one of the nation's most distinguished institutions of higher education’ were effectively recommending military intervention in Iraq. Quote:

"The United States remains a prisoner of its energy dilemma. Iraq remains a de-stabilizing influence to ... the flow of oil to international markets from the Middle East. Saddam Hussein has also demonstrated a willingness to threaten to use the oil weapon and to use his own export program to manipulate oil markets. Therefore the US should conduct an immediate policy review toward Iraq including military, energy, economic and political/ diplomatic assessments." See:

Strategic Energy Policy: Challenges for the 21st Century. Executive Summary of the Report by the Independent Task Force. Baker Institute Study 15, April 2001 Available at

http://bakerinstitute.org/Pubs/Studies.htm

The oil currency angle on all this is that, to paraphrase the words of one commentator :

'The US has a fundamentally poorly-performing economy that has had constant balance of trade deficits since WW2. The reason the US is rich is because the dollar is the most traded currency in the world. Oil, coal, steel, nearly all commodities are sold in US dollars. Importing countries all over the world have to buy dollars to pay, thus the greatest demand in Forex markets is always for US dollars. This has resulted, year after year, since WW2 in the steady appreciation of the US dollar relative to other currencies cancelling out the underlying poor performance of the US economy. However, the Euro has already seriously threatened the sovereignty of the USD, and if the US loses control of Middle Eastern oil supplies and so control over the currency that oil is traded in this would have serious consequences for the US economy.'

This issue is explored in some detail at:

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/RRiraqWar.html#fn8

DaveyL

Sorry, was that a denial that the left-wing idyll of France *didn't* do business with him?

BikingBernie

DaveyL wrote:

Sorry, was that a denial that the left-wing idyll of France *didn't* do business with him?

You often seem to have a certain hostility towards 'The French' and a willingness to jump to the defence of the USA, I wonder, is this motivated by a certain 'right-wing' leaning in your own politics?

markwalker

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Can you teach how I too can look at a rider and immediately form a concrete opinion on whether he's clean or not, cos some of my guesses have been WAY off.

Yes, Its easy,

Onthe podium
Cyclist
Dirty

but so what?

disgruntledgoat

BikingBernie wrote:

DaveyL wrote:

Sorry, was that a denial that the left-wing idyll of France *didn't* do business with him?

You often seem to have a certain hostility towards 'The French' and a willingness to jump to the defence of the USA, I wonder, is this motivated by a certain 'right-wing' leaning in your own politics?

I think he might just be needling you there Bernie, remember that humour thing we talked about. I should also point out that there is nothing wrong per se with being right wing. It's not a by-word for evil you know. I would count myself as a right wing libertarian, I don't think i'm an evil wrong doer... I just beleive different things to you.

DaveyL

BikingBernie wrote:

DaveyL wrote:

Sorry, was that a denial that the left-wing idyll of France *didn't* do business with him?

You often seem to have a certain hostility towards 'The French' and a willingness to jump to the defence of the USA, I wonder, is this motivated by a certain 'right-wing' leaning in your own politics?

I'm certainly not right-wing, and struggling to see where I've jumped to the defence of the USA here. I also don't have a hostility towards the French (I was in Paris only last week, meeting colleagues, and had a very nice time...). I am simply trying to point out that things are not quite as black and white as you seem to think they are.

Then again, I seem to disagree with you quite a lot, so I guess that ought to automatically make me some sort of ultra-right hawk, huh? Perhaps it's because I don't believe the pictures you paint of both countries.

BikingBernie

disgruntledgoat wrote:

I should also point out that there is nothing wrong per se with being right wing. It's not a by-word for evil you know. I would count myself as a right wing libertarian, I don't think i'm an evil wrong doer.

Well, as a self-confessed right-winger, you would say that, wouldn't you?

To some extent it's all a question of how far you are prepared to, in the words of Primo Levi, 'extend the logic' of your beliefs. For example, those on the right often make a fetish of 'work', but extend the logic to its 'natural' conclusion and you end up with places with iron signs above the gate reading 'Arbeit macht frei'...

---

…The general pattern we are investigating here is characterized by an all-pervasive feature. These subjects want no pity for the poor, neither here nor abroad. This trail seems to be strictly confined to high scorers and to be one of the most differentiating features in political philosophy. At this point, the interrelatedness of some ideas measured by the PEC [Political-Economic Conservatism] scale and certain attitudes caught by the F [Fascism] scale should be stressed. Abolition of the dole, rejection of state interference with the "natural" play of supply and demand on the labor market, the spirit of the adage "who does not work, shall not eat" belong to the traditional wisdom of economic rugged individualism and are stressed by all those who regard the liberal system as being endangered by socialism. At the same time, the ideas involved have a tinge of punitiveness and authoritarian aggressiveness which makes them ideal receptacles of some typical psychological urges of the prejudiced character…

The attitude of indifference to the lot of the poor together with admiration for rich and successful people sheds light on the potential attitude of the high scorers toward the prospective victims of fascism in a critical situation. Those who humiliate mentally those who are down-trodden anyway, are more than likely to react the same way when an outgroup is being "liquidated."

From 'The Authoriarian Personality' by T.W Adorno et al 1950.

For some more recent research on the 'right-wing' mindset see:

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

iainf72

BikingBernie wrote:

You often seem to have a certain hostility towards 'The French' and a willingness to jump to the defence of the USA, I wonder, is this motivated by a certain 'right-wing' leaning in your own politics?

Conversely, you seem to have hostility towards anyone who isn't French. Actually, do you loathe yourself, as I gather you're not French?

I've spent time in both the US and France. Found many charming French and Americans in my time too.

disgruntledgoat

Oh for god's sakes Bernie, have you ever knowingly entertained the thought that your own ideas and beliefs are not the one true path of humanity? Ever thought that maybe people you disagree with are capable of having good ideas and want to see people do well for themselves as well as you?

dennisn

BikingBernie wrote:

DaveyL wrote:

Sorry, was that a denial that the left-wing idyll of France *didn't* do business with him?

You often seem to have a certain hostility towards 'The French' and a willingness to jump to the defence of the USA, I wonder, is this motivated by a certain 'right-wing' leaning in your own politics?

C'mon BB. What you need is to get a good old deluxe pizza in you. I'll come over with some friends, maybe Lance, Levi, and George, we'll suck down 3 or 4 6 packs of brews, get half drunk, go out and get a few lap dances at the local gentlemen's club, and maybe even get laid. A typical American night out. We do it all the time. We're professionals at it. We'll wake up in the morning feeling like sh*t but, hey, we had a great time. Then you'll see that we're not so bad. I'll even buy the first lap dance.

BikingBernie

DaveyL wrote:

I seem to disagree with you quite a lot, so I guess that ought to automatically make me some sort of ultra-right hawk, huh? Perhaps it's because I don't believe the pictures you paint of both countries.

Or perhaps it's because you go out of your way to caricature my views. For example, I would say that France is far from being a 'left-wing idyll', even if there is still such a thing as 'society' here and the poverty level in France is under 6% as opposed to 18% in the UK and 22% (and rising) in the USA. For one they voted (albeit very marginally and now with regret) for Sarkozy!

stjohnswell

I think it's always telling when people refute allegations as 'baseless'. To me, this merely confirms the allegation but disputes the supporting evidence. For example.

BikingBernie

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Oh for god's sakes Bernie, have you ever knowingly entertained the thought that your own ideas and beliefs are not the one true path of humanity? Ever thought that maybe people you disagree with are capable of having good ideas and want to see people do well for themselves as well as you?

Yes, 'people do well for themselves'. Thats a large part of the problem...

Perhaps the fairest thing to say is that balance is needed, and the extreme individualistic, 'dog eat dog', essentially right-wing authoritarian attitudes found in the UK and USA in no way represent any sort of 'balance'. To me somewhere like Denmark offers the ideal model, but in the meanwhile France is a lot closer to the ideal than the UK and the best thing I ever did was to get out of Airstrip One when I could.

It would be fair to say that my attitudes have also been shaped by my being a cyclist most of my life. It is no coincidence that it is inequitable, hierarchical, status-orientated countries like the UK that are the most cycling unfriendly, and the more egalitarian countries like Denmark and Holland that are the most cycling-orientated. The cycling untermenschen / motoring ubermenschen hierarchy that exists on Britain's roads is a mirror of the essential 'fascistic' attitudes that dominate British 'society' in general.

disgruntledgoat

BikingBernie wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Oh for god's sakes Bernie, have you ever knowingly entertained the thought that your own ideas and beliefs are not the one true path of humanity? Ever thought that maybe people you disagree with are capable of having good ideas and want to see people do well for themselves as well as you?

Yes, 'people do well for themselves'. Thats a large part of the problem...

Perhaps the fairest thing to say that balance is needed, and the extreme individualistic, 'dog eat dog', essentially right-wing authoritarian attitudes found in the UK and USA in no way represent any sort of 'balance'. To me somewhere like Denmark offers the ideal model, but in the meanwhile France is a lot closer to the ideal than the UK and the best thing I ever did was to get out of Airstrip One when I could.

It would be fair to say that my attitudes have also been shaped by my being a cyclist most of my life. It is no coincidence that it is inequitable, hierarchical, status-orientated countries like the UK that are the most cycling unfriendly, and the more egalitarian countries like Denmark and Holland that are the most cycling-orientated. The cycling untermenschen / motoring ubermenschen hierarchy that exists on Britain's is a mirror of the essential 'fascistic' attitudes that dominate British 'society' in general.

So to answer my question... No, never crossed your mind.

BikingBernie

dennisn wrote:

C'mon BB. What you need is to get a good old deluxe pizza in you. I'll come over with some friends, maybe Lance, Levi, and George, we'll suck down 3 or 4 6 packs of brews, get half drunk, go out and get a few lap dances at the local gentlemen's club, and maybe even get laid. A typical American night out. We do it all the time. We're professionals at it. We'll wake up in the morning feeling like sh*t but, hey, we had a great time. Then you'll see that we're not so bad. I'll even buy the first lap dance.

It's perhaps no wonder that the USA has spawned so many radical feminists, given the attitudes of many US males towards women. And what's with the US obsession with pornography, much of which seems to feature fantasies of abuse and domination? Perhaps it's all a reflection of the wider American macho fantasy of domination and power, as exemplified by the likes of 'Rambo', 'Arnie' and so on.

BikingBernie

disgruntledgoat wrote:

So to answer my question... No, never crossed your mind.

Just the sort of response that might be expected from someone with a right-wing mindset, given that one of the characteristics of such a psychology is a tendency to see everything in 'black and white' terms.

To repeat what I actually said 'Perhaps the fairest thing to say is that balance is needed'. To reach such a conclusion implies that the merits of two opposing ideologies have been considered and that neither has been found to offer all the answers...

markwalker

BikingBernie wrote:

dennisn wrote:

C'mon BB. What you need is to get a good old deluxe pizza in you. I'll come over with some friends, maybe Lance, Levi, and George, we'll suck down 3 or 4 6 packs of brews, get half drunk, go out and get a few lap dances at the local gentlemen's club, and maybe even get laid. A typical American night out. We do it all the time. We're professionals at it. We'll wake up in the morning feeling like sh*t but, hey, we had a great time. Then you'll see that we're not so bad. I'll even buy the first lap dance.

It's perhaps no wonder that the USA has spawned so many radical feminists, given the attitudes of many US males towards women. And what's with the US obsession with pornography, much of which seems to feature fantasies of abuse and domination? Perhaps it's all a reflection of the wider American macho fantasy of domination and power, as exemplified by the likes of 'Rambo', 'Arnie' and so on.

Probably a more subtle indication of the natural submissive tendancies of a nation forced to act in a manner diametrically opposed to its own homosexual submissive tendancies and representative of the need and desire to be dominated and used a a b itch.


or not

markwalker

dennisn wrote:

C'mon BB. What you need is to get a good old deluxe pizza in you. I'll come over with some friends, maybe Lance, Levi, and George, we'll suck down 3 or 4 6 packs of brews, get half drunk, go out and get a few lap dances at the local gentlemen's club, and maybe even get laid. A typical American night out. We do it all the time. We're professionals at it. We'll wake up in the morning feeling like sh*t but, hey, we had a great time. Then you'll see that we're not so bad. I'll even buy the first lap dance.

sounds good to me

not the gaaay bits obviously

dennisn

BikingBernie wrote:

dennisn wrote:

C'mon BB. What you need is to get a good old deluxe pizza in you. I'll come over with some friends, maybe Lance, Levi, and George, we'll suck down 3 or 4 6 packs of brews, get half drunk, go out and get a few lap dances at the local gentlemen's club, and maybe even get laid. A typical American night out. We do it all the time. We're professionals at it. We'll wake up in the morning feeling like sh*t but, hey, we had a great time. Then you'll see that we're not so bad. I'll even buy the first lap dance.

It's perhaps no wonder that the USA has spawned so many radical feminists, given the attitudes of many US males towards women. And what's with the US obsession with pornography, much of which seems to feature fantasies of abuse and domination? Perhaps it's all a reflection of the wider American macho fantasy of domination and power, as exemplified by the likes of 'Rambo', 'Arnie' and so on.

Jeez, admit it. If I called you and said "Hey, Lance and I and some of the boys are having a few beers and shooting the sh*t, c'mon over." You WOULDN"T come????

BikingBernie

markwalker wrote:

Probably a more subtle indication of the natural submissive tendancies of a nation forced to act in a manner diametrically opposed to its own homosexual submissive tendancies and representative of the need and desire to be dominated and used a a b itch.

I thought that was the English.