The Deniers...and your vote?
There's been a bunch of "deniers" in terms of doping. I was wondering if you guys disbelieved all of them or...
(I might be missing some)
* Tyler Hamilton
* Vinokourov
* Danilo DiLuca
* Valverde
* Floyd Landis
* Ricco (says he doped for the first time at TDF, not Giro)
* Gilberto Simoni (says cocaine was candy form aunt or grandmother?)
* Ivan Basso (Says never doped, only planned to dope)
Here's my breakdown:
* Tyler Hamilton - I do NOT believe his denial
* Vinokourov - I do NOT believe his denial
* Danilo DiLuca - I do NOT believe his denial
* Valverde - I do NOT believe his denial
* Floyd Landis - I do believe he wasn't proven guilty, but mixed on actual doping/not doping
* Ricco - I do NOT believe his denial
* Gilberto Simoni - I do NOT believe his denial
* Ivan Basso - I do NOT believe his denial
(I might be missing some)
* Tyler Hamilton
* Vinokourov
* Danilo DiLuca
* Valverde
* Floyd Landis
* Ricco (says he doped for the first time at TDF, not Giro)
* Gilberto Simoni (says cocaine was candy form aunt or grandmother?)
* Ivan Basso (Says never doped, only planned to dope)
Here's my breakdown:
* Tyler Hamilton - I do NOT believe his denial
* Vinokourov - I do NOT believe his denial
* Danilo DiLuca - I do NOT believe his denial
* Valverde - I do NOT believe his denial
* Floyd Landis - I do believe he wasn't proven guilty, but mixed on actual doping/not doping
* Ricco - I do NOT believe his denial
* Gilberto Simoni - I do NOT believe his denial
* Ivan Basso - I do NOT believe his denial
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Comments
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This is a trap! But i'm such a fanboy i can't resist.
Simoni produced one of the lozenges for analysis by CONI, who subsequently cleared him. As a man with a reputation for extreme professionalism, why would he take something so non-beneficial and easy to detect?
That said I think he was probably as juiced as anybody else in Italian cycling until he left Saeco."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
Lance Armstrong denies doping.0
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Kléber wrote:Lance Armstrong denies doping.
Lance Armstrong's never been caught doping
Right, i've lit the blue touch paper and fought for Gibo's honour... My work here is done."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
donrhummy wrote:There's been a bunch of "deniers" in terms of doping. I was wondering if you guys disbelieved all of them or...
(I might be missing some)
* Tyler Hamilton
* Vinokourov
* Danilo DiLuca
* Valverde
* Floyd Landis
* Ricco (says he doped for the first time at TDF, not Giro)
* Gilberto Simoni (says cocaine was candy form aunt or grandmother?)
* Ivan Basso (Says never doped, only planned to dope)
Here's my breakdown:
* Tyler Hamilton - I do NOT believe his denial
* Vinokourov - I do NOT believe his denial
* Danilo DiLuca - I do NOT believe his denial
* Valverde - I do NOT believe his denial
* Floyd Landis - I do believe he wasn't proven guilty, but mixed on actual doping/not doping
* Ricco - I do NOT believe his denial
* Gilberto Simoni - I do NOT believe his denial
* Ivan Basso - I do NOT believe his denial
Read the Basso Cyclesport interview. He admits doping and he knows lots more were at it and allowed to continue winning things like Liege, the Dauphinee and the Tour of Spain.It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.0 -
donrhummy wrote:There's been a bunch of "deniers" in terms of doping. I was wondering if you guys disbelieved all of them or...
(I might be missing some)
* Tyler Hamilton
* Vinokourov
* Danilo DiLuca
* Valverde
* Floyd Landis
* Ricco (says he doped for the first time at TDF, not Giro)
* Gilberto Simoni (says cocaine was candy form aunt or grandmother?)
* Ivan Basso (Says never doped, only planned to dope)
Here's my breakdown:
* Tyler Hamilton - I do NOT believe his denial
* Vinokourov - I do NOT believe his denial
* Danilo DiLuca - I do NOT believe his denial
* Valverde - I do NOT believe his denial
* Floyd Landis - I do believe he wasn't proven guilty, but mixed on actual doping/not doping
* Ricco - I do NOT believe his denial
* Gilberto Simoni - I do NOT believe his denial
* Ivan Basso - I do NOT believe his denial
What about Ullrich, Heras and the Mekon? Surely you believe the Mekon?It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.0 -
Ah, but there was no mention of being caught, just a list of those wading in an Egyptian river
Personally I don't believe any of them, after all only a fraction have been caught. We know EPO use has been widespread and that many have resorted to new forms of the blood boosting hormone. Plus many have been using blood doping, Dr Fuentes had a fridge full and he was just one supplier in the market.0 -
Good point Kleber, and off that list I have to say that Gibo is the only one who's story I'd credit.
Which says more about me than it does about him I think."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
disgruntledgoat wrote:Good point Kleber, and off that list I have to say that Gibo is the only one who's story I'd credit.
Which says more about me than it does about him I think.
On that occasion maybe, but this is the chap that (along with Di Luca Mazzolini and Ricco I believe) registered child-like hormonal values while riding for Saunier Duval in the Giro in 07.
I have no beef with Simoni, he's one of my all time absolute favourites, but I think he's about as clean as LuigiIt's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.0 -
You must have missed the verdict of the CAS...donrhummy wrote:Floyd Landis - I do believe he wasn't proven guilty,
He was proven to be a doper about as much as anyone can be, despite the huge misinformation program he and his supporters set up. Even if the T/E ratio test was not conclusive - and the test is only indicative in any case - the IRMS tests were conclusive. The way he whined on about the T/E ratio tests as he did was akin to someone being stopped for speeding, being conclusively proven to be three times over the drink drive limit, and then arguing that they had to be held to be sober because the police couldn't find the calibration certificate for the speed gun first used to pull them over!donrhummy wrote:but mixed on actual doping/not dopinl0 -
Ah, right forgot Ullrich. I don't believe him.0
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BikingBernie wrote:
You must have missed the verdict of the CAS...!donrhummy wrote:Floyd Landis - I do believe he wasn't proven guilty,
Nope. If that had been a court of law, the burden of proof was never reached.0 -
Timoid. wrote:disgruntledgoat wrote:Good point Kleber, and off that list I have to say that Gibo is the only one who's story I'd credit.
Which says more about me than it does about him I think.
On that occasion maybe, but this is the chap that (along with Di Luca Mazzolini and Ricco I believe) registered child-like hormonal values while riding for Saunier Duval in the Giro in 07.
I have no beef with Simoni, he's one of my all time absolute favourites, but I think he's about as clean as Luigi
Oh I concur completely, witness my post above and the one in the thread on his mooted retirement. Incidentally, he must be on about his fifth "final Giro""In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
What, in your opinion you mean? Surely the only way to test that would be to make the case a criminal one and present all the evidence to such a court.donrhummy wrote:
Nope. If that had been a court of law, the burden of proof was never reached.BikingBernie wrote:
You must have missed the verdict of the CAS...!donrhummy wrote:Floyd Landis - I do believe he wasn't proven guilty,
Beyond that point, the case was proven to the required level. Perhaps you also believe that all those held to be liable in civil law (such as drivers who run down cyclists) should be relieved of their responsibilities as civil law requires a lower level of proof than criminal law. In addition, following your logic we might was well claim everybody ever to be found guilty of doping must be presumed to be innocent as the evidence against them was judged against a lower level of proof than in a criminal trial.0 -
Timoid. wrote:Read the Basso Cyclesport interview. He admits doping and he knows lots more were at it and allowed to continue winning things like Liege, the Dauphinee and the Tour of Spain.
1999 Jan Ullrich (GER) Team Telekom
2000 Roberto Heras (ESP) Kelme-Costa Blanca
2001 Ángel Casero (ESP) Festina
2002 Aitor González (ESP) Kelme-Costa Blanca
2003 Roberto Heras (2) (ESP) US Postal
2004 Roberto Heras (3) (ESP) Liberty Seguros
2005 Denis Menchov (RUS) Rabobank
2006 Alexandre Vinokourov (KAZ) Astana
2007 Denis Menchov (2) (RUS) Rabobank
2008 Alberto Contador (ESP) Astana
2009 Alejandro Valverde (ESP) Caisse d'Epargne
Very difficult to pick a clean winner apart from the last two, although I don't know much about Casero and Gonzalez.Contador is the Greatest0 -
Gonzalez was banned for doping and Casero was involved in Puerto.Let's close our eyes and see what happens0
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donrhummy wrote:BikingBernie wrote:
You must have missed the verdict of the CAS...!donrhummy wrote:Floyd Landis - I do believe he wasn't proven guilty,
Nope. If that had been a court of law, the burden of proof was never reached.
My understanding is you could take this case to the US Supreme court once you'd exhausted all sporting possibilities. But he didn't....
I still think his ride in the 06 Tour was one of the most awesome thing I've ever seen, but he was tooled up to do it and he got caught. The poor git was poorly advised by people pretending to be his friends and surrounded by a toxic sport where everyone is at it but he took the fall.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
frenchfighter wrote:Timoid. wrote:Read the Basso Cyclesport interview. He admits doping and he knows lots more were at it and allowed to continue winning things like Liege, the Dauphinee and the Tour of Spain.
1999 Jan Ullrich (GER) Team Telekom
2000 Roberto Heras (ESP) Kelme-Costa Blanca
2001 Ángel Casero (ESP) Festina
2002 Aitor González (ESP) Kelme-Costa Blanca
2003 Roberto Heras (2) (ESP) US Postal
2004 Roberto Heras (3) (ESP) Liberty Seguros
2005 Denis Menchov (RUS) Rabobank
2006 Alexandre Vinokourov (KAZ) Astana
2007 Denis Menchov (2) (RUS) Rabobank
2008 Alberto Contador (ESP) Astana
2009 Alejandro Valverde (ESP) Caisse d'Epargne
Very difficult to pick a clean winner apart from the last two, although I don't know much about Casero and Gonzalez.
The last two are clean by what measure? A different one to the one you're judging Menchov by, Itake it?"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
And who was responsible for the bare-faced denial, Franco-phobic conspiracy theories and all the rest that followed?iainf72 wrote:I still think his ride in the 06 Tour was one of the most awesome thing I've ever seen, but he was tooled up to do it and he got caught. The poor git was poorly advised by people pretending to be his friends and surrounded by a toxic sport where everyone is at it but he took the fall.0 -
BikingBernie wrote:And who was responsible for the bare-faced denial, Franco-phobic conspiracy theories and all the rest that followed?
What, the Franco-phobic stuff where he praised the professionalism of the AFLD and said they were much easier to deal with than the USADA?Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
frenchfighter wrote:Timoid. wrote:Read the Basso Cyclesport interview. He admits doping and he knows lots more were at it and allowed to continue winning things like Liege, the Dauphinee and the Tour of Spain.
1999 Jan Ullrich (GER) Team Telekom
2000 Roberto Heras (ESP) Kelme-Costa Blanca
2001 Ángel Casero (ESP) Festina
2002 Aitor González (ESP) Kelme-Costa Blanca
2003 Roberto Heras (2) (ESP) US Postal
2004 Roberto Heras (3) (ESP) Liberty Seguros
2005 Denis Menchov (RUS) Rabobank
2006 Alexandre Vinokourov (KAZ) Astana
2007 Denis Menchov (2) (RUS) Rabobank
2008 Alberto Contador (ESP) Astana
2009 Alejandro Valverde (ESP) Caisse d'Epargne
Very difficult to pick a clean winner apart from the last two, although I don't know much about Casero and Gonzalez.
apart from the last two? You have to be taking the p1ss surely?___________________
Strava is not Zen.0 -
I was more thinking of stuff such as the following, taken from the CAS's decision...iainf72 wrote:
What, the Franco-phobic stuff where he praised the professionalism of the AFLD and said they were much easier to deal with than the USADA?BikingBernie wrote:And who was responsible for the bare-faced denial, Franco-phobic conspiracy theories and all the rest that followed?
255. It was submitted by the Respondent that the LNDD technicians deleted test results they found to be “incorrect” or that “did not correspond.” Particularly, the Respondent alleges that the Lab deleted test results related to the quality control steps including the result from the Mix Cal Acetate and Blank Urine runs. The Respondent further asserts that the LNDD manipulated the destruction and deletion of data such that the total picture presented by the Lab made the testing and IRMS sequences look as if they were uninterrupted.
256. This evidence was apparently introduced to suggest that there was a conspiracy within the Lab to ensure that the samples of Floyd Landis would be found positive. The difficulty with the theory of conspiracy is that the Lab was conducting the analysis of the Stage 17 sample without knowing on whose sample they were working.
257. The Panel rejects the theory of a Lab conspiracy as being without foundation and facts to come to such a conclusion.0 -
With regards Fraud Landis, the following still makes me smile...
The People's Voice recycles the trash
By Dan Wetzel, Yahoo! Sports
August 10, 2006
Have you ever wondered why the entire spam mail business is still in operation – like, seriously, who in the world could still be falling for those emails promising lost fortune, dates with 19-year-old Russian blondes or instant magical growth of one part of the anatomy or another?
I think I have the answer.
Cycling fans.
Judging by the feedback that just keeps on coming and coming, these guys will believe anything. Floyd Landis? He is just the victim of a French plot to embarrass America. Or something like that. And there are thousands of these people.
I hereby apologize to San Francisco Giants fans, who, in the past, I had called the nation's dimmest rubes for holding onto the belief that Barry Bonds was clean. At least BALCO Barry never failed two drug tests.
Cycling fans remain believers and aren't happy with anyone (like the rest of the world) that thinks Floyd Landis cheated. Next up, Maurice Clarett is a good dude. I actually think this is heart warming; I had no idea so many villages allowed their idiots to use the computer.
http://sports.yahoo.com/top/news?slug=d ... &type=lgns0 -
Right. So attacking the LNDD is evidence of Franco-phobia?
Do you think if the tests had been performed in Lausanne, the same little anomalies wouldn't have been latched onto and brought up? It's called a defence, not some kind of holy war against "the french"Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
Landis didn't just point out 'little anaomalies', he claimed the LNDD was involved in conspiracy against him. As to why they might allegedly do such a thing, as you are well aware, Landis tapped into the same anti-French xenophobia in America that Armstrong has so often fed and exploited. Even his own mother claimed he was the victim of a conspiracy by 'The French'...iainf72 wrote:Right. So attacking the LNDD is evidence of Franco-phobia?
Do you think if the tests had been performed in Lausanne, the same little anomalies wouldn't have been latched onto and brought up? It's called a defence, not some kind of holy war against "the french"
Landis we're sure to hear is the victim of the French-based anti-American conspiracy that tried (and still tries) to topple the great Lance Armstrong winner of the previous seven Tours de France. One supporter visited Landis' family home and pasted up a note that said "Floyd! You are the man! Can't let the French get you down."
"They stirred up trouble for Lance too" said Arlene Landis Floyd's mother.
http://www.sportsline.com/print/columns/story/95901570 -
BikingBernie wrote:
Landis didn't just point out 'little anaomalies', he claimed the LNDD was involved in conspiracy against him. As to why they might allegedly do such a thing, as you are well aware, Landis tapped into the same anti-French xenophobia in America that Armstrong has so often fed and exploited. Even his own mother claimed he was the victim of a conspiracy by 'The French'...iainf72 wrote:Right. So attacking the LNDD is evidence of Franco-phobia?
Do you think if the tests had been performed in Lausanne, the same little anomalies wouldn't have been latched onto and brought up? It's called a defence, not some kind of holy war against "the french"
Landis we're sure to hear is the victim of the French-based anti-American conspiracy that tried (and still tries) to topple the great Lance Armstrong winner of the previous seven Tours de France. One supporter visited Landis' family home and pasted up a note that said "Floyd! You are the man! Can't let the French get you down."
"They stirred up trouble for Lance too" said Arlene Landis Floyd's mother.
http://www.sportsline.com/print/columns/story/9590157
Having lived in the good ole USA all my life I would have to say that I never really noticed any real French "hatred or bad feelings or whatever" from anyone UNTIL 9-11. Then all the French jokes started coming out, things like that, and people that you talked to had nothing good to say about them. Not everyone, but the majority seemed to think that France
had "betrayed us" (for lack of better words). What this says about the USA, I don't know? Had the situation been reversed, well, who can say? Nationalism is a powerful thing and politicians use it whenever they can for whatever advantage they can get and the peoples of most nations follow without a lot of questions. IMHO.0 -
I know, I can imagine people there got really 'bummed out' when 'The French' refused to support the USA's illegal invasion of Iraq in order to install a tame client state and so give them guaranteed access to Iraq's oil, and to ensure that oil would be traded in Dollars.dennisn wrote:Having lived in the good ole USA all my life I would have to say that I never really noticed any real French "hatred or bad feelings or whatever" from anyone UNTIL 9-11. Then all the French jokes started coming out, things like that, and people that you talked to had nothing good to say about them. Not everyone, but the majority seemed to think that France had "betrayed us" (for lack of better words).
There are other reasons for anti-French xenophobia in the US though. For one France is seen by many as representing a 'socialist' challenge to the near-hegemony of US style right-wing individualism and neo-conservatism. The 'French' belief in the utility of 'the state', as typified by the French health care system, is also hated by the loony 'libertarian' tendency in the US. Just look for the reactions to Obama's proposed health care system reforms for some illustrations of this.
It's not just politicians, people like Armstrong are experts at exploiting this fact...dennisn wrote:Nationalism is a powerful thing and politicians use it whenever they can for whatever advantage they can get and the peoples of most nations follow without a lot of questions.0 -
Do you have anything where Landis makes anti-French statements? Saying "The French Lab" is not anti-French.
His work of fiction "Positively False" is far far more scathing towards the Americans than it is towards "The french" He even says he thinks things would be a lot easier if more people behaved like Pierre Bordry
"And Bordry, being a reasonable man, said he would take what Maurice had said into consideration"
..
"Again, Maurice couldn't believe the level of absurdity in dealings with the USADA"
Does that mean he's xenophobic towards the French and the Americans?Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
But I haven't argued that Landis is necessarily a Francophobe himself! What he did do was to cynically exploit the Francophobia that exists in others. In order to do this he didn't even have to say anything that was overtly 'anti-French', as he knew that all the Francophobes would jump to his defence and claim that 'The French' were out to get him. In turn he hoped that allowing this situation to persist would strengthen his 'case' and give his followers a reason to 'keep the faith'. Have you any examples of where he tried to positively counter such attitudes? As far as I know he didn't even tell his own mother to stop being so stupid, at least in public!iainf72 wrote:Do you have anything where Landis makes anti-French statements?
The implication that 'The French' were out to 'screw' him was implicit in the accusations he made against the LNDD. Fraud Landis never claimed that the LNDD 'conspire' against every rider whose samples they test, so why should they do so in his case? The blank he left for other to fill in was "Because he is another American 'winner' of the Tour"...0 -
BikingBernie wrote:
I know, I can imagine people there got really 'bummed out' when 'The French' refused to support the USA's illegal invasion of Iraq in order to install a tame client state and so give them guaranteed access to Iraq's oil, and to ensure that oil would be traded in Dollars.dennisn wrote:Having lived in the good ole USA all my life I would have to say that I never really noticed any real French "hatred or bad feelings or whatever" from anyone UNTIL 9-11. Then all the French jokes started coming out, things like that, and people that you talked to had nothing good to say about them. Not everyone, but the majority seemed to think that France had "betrayed us" (for lack of better words).
There are other reasons for anti-French xenophobia in the US though. For one France is seen by many as representing a 'socialist' challenge to the near-hegemony of US style right-wing individualism and neo-conservatism. The 'French' belief in the utility of 'the state', as typified by the French health care system, is also hated by the loony 'libertarian' tendency in the US. Just look for the reactions to Obama's proposed health care system reforms for some illustrations of this.
It's not just politicians, people like Armstrong are experts at exploiting this fact...dennisn wrote:Nationalism is a powerful thing and politicians use it whenever they can for whatever advantage they can get and the peoples of most nations follow without a lot of questions.
I think you make a bit too much or too little, depending on how you look at it, of the USA.
We are not a nation of French haters or haters of much of anything for that matter. I don't know any anti-French xenophob's(that I know of). I don't have any friends trying to talk me into joining the KKK. I've never attened a lynching. Most of the people that I know are just plain people. Just going to work on a daily basis and trying to better their life. I really don't think I've ever seen your version of America. Even though I do like Ayn Rand.0 -
In reply to those questionning the 'last two'. Yes I think they were clean - does anyone think Valverde rode this Vuelta doped? As for Contador, I am not arguing this point as it isn't worth it, he has nothing doping related to tarnish him apart from Puerto which has been shown to be nothing.
I agree Menchov hasn't been proven guilty and it is just my opinion that he is a doper.Contador is the Greatest0
